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open24hours posted:They get quoted because they're much better at playing the game than anyone in the Socialist Alliance could ever hope to be.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 01:18 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:02 |
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Cartoon posted:There have been plenty of people from the left who were/are great spokespeople for the cause it's just that fifty years of anti-communist propaganda and the bias of the mainstream media instantly marginalises them. It is amazing Bob Brown managed to get the traction he did. Strangely since the end of the cold war, and the communist boogieman, voices from the left have been getting harder, rather than easier to hear. Blaming the left for this would seem to being missing the forest for the trees by a wide margin. No man, it's pretty easy to see that the failure for getting the message, 'the fat cats should give up some of their pie' in a world run by fat cats rests on the left.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 01:27 |
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It's not about blaming the left for being hopeless, it's that if the left are hopeless it's the left that loses out. You can complain about the world being unfair all you like but it's not going to help you or your cause.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 01:50 |
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Cartoon posted:There have been plenty of people from the left who were/are great spokespeople for the cause it's just that fifty years of anti-communist propaganda and the bias of the mainstream media instantly marginalises them. It is amazing Bob Brown managed to get the traction he did. Strangely since the end of the cold war, and the communist boogieman, voices from the left have been getting harder, rather than easier to hear. Blaming the left for this would seem to being missing the forest for the trees by a wide margin. Bob Brown is hardly a shining light of leftwing ideology. And of course the rightwing media/powers are going to continue to marginalize and only present caricatures or milquetoast leftwing ideas. Why would they want to inform the population of alternatives to the status quo that would threaten them?
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 02:38 |
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Bill Shorten is such an empty sack-shaped non-person he won't even take a stance on which lettuce he prefers.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 03:52 |
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Au Revoir Shosanna posted:Bill Shorten is such an empty sack-shaped non-person he won't even take a stance on which lettuce he prefers. Yeah, while it's certainly not the left's fault that they don't get listened to, that is not helping. At least the UK has Corbyn, and Sanders has an audience of some kind in the States.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:01 |
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Shorten is Labor right, not sure he's a good example of left voice in Australia.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:02 |
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Took a day off after only two days back at work already. gently caress 42'c though.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:02 |
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open24hours posted:It's not about blaming the left for being hopeless, it's that if the left are hopeless it's the left that loses out. You can complain about the world being unfair all you like but it's not going to help you or your cause. What are the luminaries of the Australian left supposed to do to get their message out? The mainstream media call the ALP lewftwing: http://www.weeklytimes.com.au/left-wing-councillor-left-red-faced-over-royal-portrait-row/ quote:Monarchists Rachel Bailes and Phillip Benwell shake hands after the defeat of Labor Clr George Simon’s motion to remove the Queen’s portrait from Ryde Council Chambers. TWT on-the-spot PHOTO. Please have an answer because I've been struggling with exactly this for decades. In America money = exposure is even further down the road than it is in Australia but we aren't far behind. How can you have an egalitarian society when to be elected you need more money than Clive Palmer? It's bullshit and it's completely unfair and skewed. The only time that the hard left got a say was back when the union movement still had real power. Now the Right wingers have completely white anted that power base what have we got left? thatfatkid posted:Bob Brown is hardly a shining light of leftwing ideology.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:08 |
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Cartoon posted:It is entirely about it being unfair. Why would opponents of the left have any interest whatsoever in providing a fair and unskewed environment in which the left can operate? The reason it's unfair and skewed is because the left have been comprehensively outmaneuvered for decades and haven't been able to respond in a coherent way. It doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon either. What little political capital the mainstream left have is wasted on identity politics, which, whatever your views about their philosophical importance, aren't going to win elections. open24hours fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 13, 2016 |
# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:22 |
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xPanda posted:I can't believe how every time there's a media talking point about productivity she gets up there and directly contradicts herself sentence to sentence about penalty rates. It's bizarre. Well known lovely place to be Adventure Park has dramatically cut its hours due to the horror of casual wages and not at all because it's poo poo and better known as "Pissweak World" to the locals. Adventure Park cuts opening hours, blames casual wage rates quote:THE state’s biggest water theme park will only be open three days a week as of next month due to casual wage increases. Yep, nothing to do with nobody wanting to go there, gotta blame those wages. And in, "At least we're not quite as bad as" news: Denmark to amend plan to seize asylum seekers' assets, exempting wedding rings quote:Denmark's Government says it has secured a parliamentary majority for its controversial plan to seize migrants' cash and valuables to pay for their stay in the country. You get to keep your family photos, your wedding band and up to $2000, the rest will be confiscated. I can't even begin to comprehend how disgusting this is and await the LNP instituting it forthwith.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:28 |
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Someone who advocates for the regime change of african nations via a NATO led bombing campaign and whose preferred method of reducing carbon emissions is to let the freemarket sort it out via carbon trading is not leftwing. open24hours posted:The reason it's unfair and skewed is because the left have been comprehensively outmaneuvered for decades and haven't been able to respond in a coherent way. It's almost as if it's impossible to effectively combat capitalism by working within the capitalist system...
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:55 |
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There is no way the Danish government could make more money selling second hand gear than what it would cost in administrating the scheme. Sounds purely reactionary and punitive to me. Countdown to Australia's version of the idea? E: thanks thatfatkid starkebn fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jan 13, 2016 |
# ? Jan 13, 2016 04:58 |
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Dutch = The Netherlands Danish = Denmark
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 05:04 |
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The Greens are actually an interesting feature of the decline of the left. With socialism being so thoroughly discredited for so many people environmentalism provides one of the only ways to criticise capitalism without being immediately written off as some kind of cold war throwback.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 05:08 |
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open24hours posted:The Greens are actually an interesting feature of the decline of the left. With socialism being so thoroughly discredited for so many people environmentalism provides one of the only ways to criticise capitalism without being immediately written off as some kind of cold war throwback. But at the same time there are heaps of people that write them off totally even if they agree with large parts of their platform because of their focus on environmentalism. I'd actually like to see a party that's essentially the greens but instead of being branded as environmentalists heavily pushes a brand focused on health, education and public infrastructure. While those are some fairly prominent areas in all parties I think a focus on those would still allow a party to differentiate itself from the other parties while providing shitloads of avenues to criticise the status quo.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 05:23 |
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Gorilla Salad posted:Well known lovely place to be Adventure Park has dramatically cut its hours due to the horror of casual wages and not at all because it's poo poo and better known as "Pissweak World" to the locals. Can someone please point me in the direction of all the jobs that are getting penalty rate and public holiday increases of such significance it causes businesses to quake in their boots because Every job I have ever had, none of that has changed in the 10+ years I have been in the work force.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 05:53 |
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How's that saying go? Every headline that is a question can be simply answered "No". Can one-shot Shorten win this election?
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 05:56 |
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Shorten can win of he is replaced by Albo.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 06:03 |
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Amoeba102 posted:How's that saying go? Every headline that is a question can be simply answered "No". Betteridge's Law of Headlines
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 06:11 |
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-13/reports-police-oficer-shot-at-nepean-hospital/7084920quote:Police officer and security guard shot at Nepean hospital in Sydney Updated about 4 hours ago
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 06:35 |
Cartoon posted:Strangely since the end of the cold war, and the communist boogieman, voices from the left have been getting harder, rather than easier to hear. The right has used money and power to buy out/create media machines (Fox News is a good example, as is the Australian) which they have used to drown out opposing messages, or just change the subject whenever a counter-narrative starts to reveal itself. People on the right also have the spare money to fund think tanks and astroturfing organisations to refine and enhance their message. The machine has been built up so much, and is ingrained so deeply now that facts themselves no longer really matter. The USA is a good example of where we'll be in 10 years, and look at the statements by everyone in the republican primaries. I'm not just talking about Trump, but everyone there is throwing out bald faced lies that go unchallenged and uncriticised, and people eat them up. ANYWAY: First Dog: Kitten: Pictured above: Noelle the kitten, very upset with her haircut.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 06:41 |
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Rule one of starting a mudslinging war using your cronies and die hard supporters? Don't hit "reply: all" quote:SECRET text messages meant for LNP supporters have caused embarrassment for Capricornia MP Michelle Landry after they were sent out to ordinary community members instead.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 06:44 |
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Periphery posted:But at the same time there are heaps of people that write them off totally even if they agree with large parts of their platform because of their focus on environmentalism. Interesting that you singled out those things because they are certainly the focus of Labor's political strategy (plus industrial relations...) and typically where they poll well. Now if only they were a left wing party... Zenithe posted:Rule one of starting a mudslinging war using your cronies and die hard supporters? Bloody hilarious.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 07:50 |
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Gorilla Salad posted:You get to keep your family photos, your wedding band and up to $2000, the rest will be confiscated. I can't even begin to comprehend how disgusting this is and await the LNP instituting it forthwith. In order to institute this we would actually have to be letting them into the country. Well actually I guess we wouldn't, but confiscating valuables while throwing people in camps is probably too Nazi Germany at this stage. Watch out for it in 2017 after Malcolm's landslide election victory and sweeping mandate!
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 08:33 |
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freebooter posted:In order to institute this we would actually have to be letting them into the country. If recent history has taught us anything there's nothing that's "too Nazi Germany". EDIT: Literal Nazi's turn up at UPF rally, Politicians: No, no you see, they aren't representative of the rest of us because *farts*
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 08:49 |
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drat, Decent discussion (which I'm going to try not to ruin) and I'm out for the night. Cartoon posted:There have been plenty of people from the left who were/are great spokespeople for the cause it's just that fifty years of anti-communist propaganda and the bias of the mainstream media instantly marginalises them. It is amazing Bob Brown managed to get the traction he did. Strangely since the end of the cold war, and the communist boogieman, voices from the left have been getting harder, rather than easier to hear. Blaming the left for this would seem to being missing the forest for the trees by a wide margin. You guys know more of the machinations of The Green but I'm not amazed. You might have not agreed with Bob, but he had my respect. He was consistent, principled and very much a trailblazer in Australian politics. To me it seems relatively easy for many Labor supporters to make a slight shift gears towards The Greens. He's good at handing out vegetarian dessert recipes too apparently. SynthOrange posted:Took a day off after only two days back at work already. gently caress 42'c though. Last month's thread title back pls. 43.2C here. open24hours posted:Why would opponents of the left have any interest whatsoever in providing a fair and unskewed environment in which the left can operate? The reason it's unfair and skewed is because the left have been comprehensively outmaneuvered for decades and haven't been able to respond in a coherent way. Agree, no political party is going to give the other side a free kick. The left have not only been outmaneuvered they are fighting on two fronts now. A strategy of attacking The Greens and fighting hard for 'middle Australia' is a hiding to nowhere at the moment. My own (non-researched) view is that if The Greens continue to draw back on their 'no compromise' position they are seen to have they are going to clean up. Di Natale knows that and he's going to do it. Yay to keep Lucas Heights! open24hours posted:It doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon either. What little political capital the mainstream left have is wasted on identity politics, which, whatever your views about their philosophical importance, aren't going to win elections. I don't think Rudd won because of the 'It's time' factor he beat Howard very much on brand Rudd. Yeah, he was a loving loon, but he got there. Yes, they might have blown it all there but it doesn't take much to re-capture it. *cough* Albo. Gorilla Salad posted:And in, "At least we're not quite as bad as" news: As a side, now Germany is planning to deport some asylum seekers who are (I'm sure you heard it) being referred to as 'rapeugees'. The question would be where? Expect all this and more play out as nationalist parties start picking up seats worth real clout. Every loving nation is kicking this can down the road without a 'regional solution' - something other than open borders straight to Germany. I'd expect the hear stories like this for a while yet. Off to the RSL now.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 08:53 |
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Graic Gabtar posted:I'm not 100% but could these people be deported back to Greece? You are supposed to seek asylum in the first country you enter I'm pretty sure. This is correct, but you may have noticed that Greece has been having economic issues of its own of late, and Europe is at least nominally involved in a semi-federalist union where states are supposed to help each other out.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 08:59 |
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freebooter posted:This is correct, but you may have noticed that Greece has been having economic issues of its own of late, and Europe is at least nominally involved in a semi-federalist union where states are supposed to help each other out. Something tells me that nobody is really in a rush to help Greece with anything.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 09:21 |
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Gorilla Salad posted:You get to keep your family photos, your wedding band and up to $2000, the rest will be confiscated. I can't even begin to comprehend how disgusting this is and await the LNP instituting it forthwith. Periphery posted:I'd actually like to see a party that's essentially the greens but instead of being branded as environmentalists heavily pushes a brand focused on health, education and public infrastructure. While those are some fairly prominent areas in all parties I think a focus on those would still allow a party to differentiate itself from the other parties while providing shitloads of avenues to criticise the status quo.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 09:22 |
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I'm currently debating whether or not to renew my Greens membership. Richard Di Natale's courtship of the centre makes me worry that we're going to end up with a slightly-left-of-centre wishy-washy bullshit party. He's the first Greens leader who's never been to prison for protesting, and that's a bad thing.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 09:27 |
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Endman posted:I'm currently debating whether or not to renew my Greens membership. We can get rid of him help the movement to allow the members to vote for the leader. turdbucket fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jan 13, 2016 |
# ? Jan 13, 2016 09:55 |
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 10:27 |
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BBJoey posted:Why would they bother? They don't let asylum seekers in in the first place. Nah, the alp was just protectionism and exclusion of asiatics. Everything else was trying to get themselves rich enough to be real tories. The greens are talking a lot about evidence-based policy. Although, "We don't want ideology" is still ideological. I think the most accurate one-word-phrase to describe the party's aim is sustainability. This explains the elevation of the natural environment, where some in the party would be conservative in their views and wish for a "return" to the natural order. Unfortunately that sucks for humans so next option is to act sustainably within our natural environment. Once you have that nut cracked (homeless support shelters talk about home first - then approach the issues of mental health etc.) then you can move onto the issues of social justice, fairness in the economy etc. The other reason why the greens are most ideologically correct is the political system they promote - "grassroots democracy" aka anarchy. You cannot call yourself "left" and still ask for a mummy or daddy to run your life for you. You must have the people in control, stronger than both capital and centralised political power. This is not to be confused with either mob rule or anarchy in the colloquial sense.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 10:31 |
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freebooter posted:This is correct, but you may have noticed that Greece has been having economic issues of its own of late, and Europe is at least nominally involved in a semi-federalist union where states are supposed to help each other out. I've noticed, but are you going to argue that we should squib on the 1951 refugee convention? Human rights lawyers in Australia go to war on dotted i's and crossed t's for a few hundred asylum seekers. However, for a million people you want to pick and choose articles in the convention if its convenient? You can't have it both ways. That could easily be conceived as hypocritical. If there was a semi-federalist union it should be upholding the convention by supporting Greece and processing asylum seekers in situ. Otherwise people could easily argue that the spirit of the convention has been pretty well hosed by people bolting for the German welfare state over asylum. I look at countries in Europe joining Australia's position in closing borders. Europe is a cul-de-sac that is going to implode, people just don't want to face into it. Sadly that was the first thing that came to my mind. Unfortunately for the world that was over 70 years ago. Its drifting into memory. It means a lot to some people but most have probably never even seen images like that so it's a 'meh'.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 16:45 |
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Endman posted:I'm currently debating whether or not to renew my Greens membership. That is a genuinely interesting view.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:02 |
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My Greens membership expired because I'm too poor and disengaged with politics at the moment.Slob Hortins, DiNutellas, Turdballs. It's worse than Abbott because Abbott tasted like poo poo and got your blood to boil but the current political climate tastes like nothing and how can you be engaged with nothing?
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:07 |
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Anidav posted:My Greens membership expired because I'm too poor and disengaged with politics at the moment.Slob Hortins, DiNutellas, Turdballs. Giving up? gently caress Anidav. It's 3AM and you're on a political forum. You are engaged whether you like it or not. Are you a QLD full fee, low income or concession? (PM me if you want) Don't give up on your convictions fucker.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:22 |
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All Dave has left is his anime.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 21:33 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:02 |
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Graic Gabtar posted:I've noticed, but are you going to argue that we should squib on the 1951 refugee convention? The clause about seeking asylum in the first country you get to is something clung to by Australian right-wingers who are furious that asylum seekers don't stay put in Pakistan or Indonesia or whatever lovely poverty-stricken hellhole they end up in. If Australia bordered Afghanistan or Sri Lanka and we really were the first country many refugees arrived in, somehow I don't think you'd hear about it so much. It's a legitimate-sounding front (much like "concern for your safety at sea") to mask the base desire; it's not the founding doctrine of the convention. So to return to the current situation: do you really think that it's the best situation for any of the three parties involved, including Germany, for millions of refugees to be permanently settled in Greece? And bear in mind that economic considerations aside, Germany has eight times the population of Greece.
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# ? Jan 13, 2016 22:11 |