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Sickening posted:A basic land would imply you could have more than 4, this isn't the case with wastes right? It is.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:58
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They're like snow basics - you have to draft them into your deck, they rotate with the format, and you can play however many you want in a deck.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:58
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BJPaskoff posted:I can assure you that smugly bringing up Collector's Edition cards doesn't contribute anything to the argument. Bringing up that there's a two year old article on the official Magic site suggesting you ask your LGS to run proxy tournaments, however, is a big deal. It doesn't really make that much sense. "Counterfeit" is a recognised legal concept. Things that are intended to confuse people into thinking they're real Magic cards are problems. Things that players are using for shorthand are completely different. If Wizards doesn't have a policy that differentiates between these things, that's on them, not on us for asking questions about an asinine policy. You can't say "they have to because of the laws" and absolve the company of its abysmal customer communication skills. You can have Trick come out and say "if you're not using proxies to confuse people into thinking you're using real Magic cards you're ok". It's WotC's fault they won't do that.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:00
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BJPaskoff posted:Some of that makes sense. Anyone from Wizards with the ability to comment on this at all is a robot who has to repeat the company line and nothing but that. I don't think there's a "wink" involved here at all though. Since no one's been suspended over this, had their WPN privileges taken away, or been explicitly threatened with either of those penalties, it's hard to say whether this Reddit person is right or if this "first warning" marks the start of Wizards actually enforcing their policy. Silencing this discussion does nothing at this point though. Wizards has already committed to the "proxies are counterfeits, you wouldn't steal a car, think of the poor shareholders" narrative they're running with and clarifying their stance on legacy and vintage is desperately needed. VSL is a thing they advertise widely, but the amount of people who can actually participate in Vintage offline is staggeringly low. Cutting proxies from non-sanctioned events doesn't earn them more money as the cards being proxied are cards they no longer sell in any way, shape or form, while at the same time pushing their customer base towards the actual chinese counterfeiters because now you can no longer just write black lotus on a plains.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:02
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BJPaskoff posted:I can assure you that smugly bringing up Collector's Edition cards doesn't contribute anything to the argument. Bringing up that there's a two year old article on the official Magic site suggesting you ask your LGS to run proxy tournaments, however, is a big deal. This seems really spot on actually.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:03
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BJPaskoff posted:Some of that makes sense. Anyone from Wizards with the ability to comment on this at all is a robot who has to repeat the company line and nothing but that. I don't think there's a "wink" involved here at all though. Since no one's been suspended over this, had their WPN privileges taken away, or been explicitly threatened with either of those penalties, it's hard to say whether this Reddit person is right or if this "first warning" marks the start of Wizards actually enforcing their policy. I think, "Stop asking about it, guys!" is a dumb position to take though. LGSes and people who care about them are going to want to know exactly what is and isn't allowed. If WotC want to be mealy mouthed about it, that's not really my problem. The idea that the community is forcing WotC's hand here and that if we'd all just shut up everything would be fine is naive. That tweet from Helene is somewhat encouraging, but it still presents a problem for stores that run unsanctioned proxy events. Maybe players just need to start running them without the store's involvement? I can't see that being nearly as successful.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:04
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I am terribly disappointed that I seem to be the first one to do this:
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Jan 13, 2016 17:06
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Speaking of LGSs... "gently caress you" ~WotC
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Jan 13, 2016 17:08
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Kylaer posted:I am terribly disappointed that I seem to be the first one to do this: There's a reason
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Jan 13, 2016 17:10
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I'm gonna play a deck of 60 wastes, as performance art about the state of the game. Or modern man's place in a changing world and the necessary abandonment of romantic notions of art and thought. Oed’ und leer das Meer. HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME. Or not. I dunno. Gareth Gobulcoque fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 17:14
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odiv posted:That tweet from Helene is somewhat encouraging, but it still presents a problem for stores that run unsanctioned proxy events. Maybe players just need to start running them without the store's involvement? I can't see that being nearly as successful. the problem with this is that it is very likely that Wizards will see any kind of Proxy Playing at a store as an event, whether or not the store ran it as an event or if the players just showed up without the store's involvement
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Jan 13, 2016 17:14
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Serperoth posted:Speaking of LGSs... Rip WOTC is doing things that effect [sic] many players.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:15
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Serperoth posted:Speaking of LGSs... oh cool i was right, guess i should have scrolled down
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Jan 13, 2016 17:15
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Pussy Snorkel posted:Was this ever a question? Among people who don't follow magic on forums and only show up for pre-releases and otherwise just play kitchen table magic? A million times yes.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:26
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Entropic posted:Among people who don't follow magic on forums and only show up for pre-releases and otherwise just play kitchen table magic? A million times yes. quote:10/1/2008: "Snow" has no particular meaning or rules associated with it. Plus who hasn't played w/ skred in kitchen table magic that card owns.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:31
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Did they just add a new rule that says "basic lands with no subtype tap for colorless" or was that somehow always the case?
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Jan 13, 2016 17:35
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Entropic posted:Did they just add a new rule that says "basic lands with no subtype tap for colorless" or was that somehow always the case? What? Neither of that is true. Wastes is a Basic Land with the text "T: Add C to your mana pool", that's it. "T: Add R to your mana pool" is an inherent thing with the land subtype "Mountain", not the other way around.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:37
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Zoness posted:I mean the precedent is basically there, just replace snow with wastes and ignore anything about typing. Also wotc did say you'd have to draft your wastes to clear up that ambiguity. The same language is basically on the Pre-Release deckbuilding sheets. You cant pick up Wastes from a land station at the pre-release. You have to get them in your packs, they're seeded as common cards NOT basic land cards, and you have no guarantees to get any but I guess it's probably such that with the full art and the non-full art and 3 of each happening that you'll at least end up with 1 per pack.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:37
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Cynic Jester posted:Silencing this discussion does nothing at this point though. Wizards has already committed to the "proxies are counterfeits, you wouldn't steal a car, think of the poor shareholders" narrative they're running with and clarifying their stance on legacy and vintage is desperately needed. VSL is a thing they advertise widely, but the amount of people who can actually participate in Vintage offline is staggeringly low. Cutting proxies from non-sanctioned events doesn't earn them more money as the cards being proxied are cards they no longer sell in any way, shape or form, while at the same time pushing their customer base towards the actual chinese counterfeiters because now you can no longer just write black lotus on a plains. Not letting people have casual games on a back table if they involve proxies is saying "go to card stores less!" too. Is there a reason WoTC is letting SCG have a monopoly on letting people have the ability to play Magic?
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Jan 13, 2016 17:38
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Telex posted:The same language is basically on the Pre-Release deckbuilding sheets. The non full art wastes aren't going to be in packs I think, just in the precons.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:43
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Serperoth posted:What? Neither of that is true. Wastes is a Basic Land with the text "T: Add C to your mana pool", that's it. So if I have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play I can still tap a Wastes for colorless mana?
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Jan 13, 2016 17:45
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Serperoth posted:Speaking of LGSs... Ahahahahaha. I looked up the updates from other stores and they're following suit too. The best part is that I know of several grinders at different stores who love parroting the company line and wanting strict almost-competitive level REL for FNM. They enjoy proxying decks they don't have for legacy and for the modern gauntlet during modern GP/IQ season. I assume they'll just be hypocritical here but if they follow through and take their serious business gaming practice to their apartments only so we don't have to experience it, this will only be good for the LGS atmosphere.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:46
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Entropic posted:So if I have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play I can still tap a Wastes for colorless mana? Yes, the same way you could tap a mountain for red still.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:48
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Entropic posted:So if I have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play I can still tap a Wastes for colorless mana? Yeah, the article says the land just has oracle text that isn't written on the card. This also means that other basics that somehow lose their subtype can't tap for C. E: There was some discussion that tapping for C could become inherent to basic lands with no subtype, so it's not a silly a question like it might sound.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:49
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Skyl3lazer posted:Yes, the same way you could tap a mountain for red still. I know that. I'm just saying it would be different if Wastes worked the same way other basics do, where they don't actually have rules text other than what's inherent from their subtype. It probably makes the most sense for them to do it this way, but it's good to clarify.
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Jan 13, 2016 17:51
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Your problem lies in that you are asking too many questions. I'm being serious. Hear me out. Essentially, they're saying that - though their official policy is strict on proxies and counterfeits - they REALLY don't care about them actually being used given that they're not Chinese Counterfeits. Like they really don't care, at all. The original post was made to ONE gaming store that was a private communication. By blowing it up, they now have to reiterate their official policy and refuse you the plausible deniability that we are so often given. Now, instead of ignoring it/giving a "warning" when some douchebag who gets DQ'd reports a store for allowing proxies, they have to follow-through on their promise because we made this private email (which acts as a first warning to that specific LGS), very public (now a first warning to every LGS). Essentially, when you ask about a policy, they are going to quote you the official policy (the one that protects them legally). NOT the plausible deniability that they give us between the lines. By blowing this up, we're FORCING them to enforce certain policies that they don't really care to enforce because not doing so would hurt their ability to enforce it when it really matters (in the courts vs. Chinese counterfeiters for example). tl;dr: In public, when you ask them, they have to quote official policy, but they're winking at you when doing so. If you don't get it, What Trick is saying is the official policy. What Helene is saying is the "Wink" (she's winking really hard). STOP ASKING FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:16
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Pussy Snorkel posted:Was this ever a question? Technically if Wizards decided to stop printing basic lands in the first set of a block, they'd rotate out too unless they made an update to the rules. To the earlier poster asking if Modern Masters cards counted as cards - yes, of course they do. Reprints like that are important for driving down the prices of cards that have been driven up by speculators, dealers, and demand over time. The problem is that Wizards tied their hands behind their back from ever being able to do that for Legacy and Vintage. I agree completely that it's damaging to do what they're doing to proxy tournaments for Legacy and Vintage because they are not reasonably costed formats and they have no reasonable way of driving the price down. Unless you want to play those formats exclusively on Magic Online, that is.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:20
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Snacksmaniac posted:STOP ASKING FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:22
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odiv posted:This was literally quoted on the previous page.  I blame switching from mobile to desktop.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:25
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OK, so what about the world champ decks? They come with 15 "blank" cards with a full back and front frame so can I write "black lotus" on one of those and sit in the back of the LGS and play vintage provided my radio is at a reasonable volume? What if it's unsanctioned and I make a protective circle of salt around the table? Does wizards loving forget who their players are? You can't release a vague lawyery statement to grognards. Side quest: what's your favorite "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" card? I heart mana tithe but I find wrecking Twin with a batwing brume more satisfying, esp on modo where they had to play it out just to lose.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:33
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PleasantDirge posted:OK, so what about the world champ decks? They come with 15 "blank" cards with a full back and front frame so can I write "black lotus" on one of those and sit in the back of the LGS and play vintage provided my radio is at a reasonable volume? What if it's unsanctioned and I make a protective circle of salt around the table? Brimaz, specifically in game 2-3 playing Mardu Planeswalkers with absolutely no creatures maindeck.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:36
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The next Chuck Palahnuik book will be Fight Club for unsanctioned proxy MTG tournaments. I am Jack's Raging River.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:37
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PleasantDirge posted:Side quest: what's your favorite "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" card? I heart mana tithe but I find wrecking Twin with a batwing brume more satisfying, esp on modo where they had to play it out just to lose. Infernal Contract.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:38
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Something tells me that if you sit around your LGS playtesting with proxies, WotC isn't gonna come kick the door in and strip away all their privileges. The dude who said "just stop pressing the issue" is pretty right on.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:39
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I think we've had way too many Wizard Scandals recently.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:40
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Angry Grimace posted:I think we've had way too many Wizard Scandals recently. Pretty sure it's because we have nothing else going on with our lives.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:41
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I'm a big fan of the argument that stores are supposed to see "don't use or allow 'counterfeits' or some weird nerd with a grudge might report you and lose you a lot of your income" and mentally insert a wink. Even though I'm sure there is one, I'm not the one making money off of that. It's a pretty gross lose-lose
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Jan 13, 2016 18:44
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stinkles1112 posted:Something tells me that if you sit around your LGS playtesting with proxies, WotC isn't gonna come kick the door in and strip away all their privileges. The dude who said "just stop pressing the issue" is pretty right on. I just want to not have to hear them being obnoxious when they can take that poo poo home so I can play a lovely game of X wing and make pew pew laser noises. 
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Jan 13, 2016 18:45
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Zoness posted:They're like snow basics - you have to draft them into your deck, they rotate with the format, and you can play however many you want in a deck. But are they legal in Momir Basic
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Jan 13, 2016 18:46
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suicidesteve posted:Infernal Contract. That is pretty sweet, where are you sneaking that in, storm?
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Jan 13, 2016 18:47
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