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A New Hope. 
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Jan 18, 2016 02:44
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Neurolimal posted:It's not dead and buried, it just references newer movies TFA references movies such as: Edit: Beaten.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:46
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I can kinda see some Star Trek 09 references, but even that movie is much more wild than TFA (let's do a drop onto a giant drill from space! Then let's get chased by a giant alien on an ice world!) e: Imagine the sequence from Into Darkness when they have to maneuver through the asteroid field to get to the evil ship, but in Star Wars. That would be 
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Jan 18, 2016 02:51
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Luke at the beginning of ANH wants to go to the Imperial Academy and become a faceless tie fighter pilot.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:52
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I'm usually good at trainspotting references, but the only non-Star-Wars references that stood out were Alien (with Han's big ship), and the two Apocalypse Now sunrises. That's two from 1979, I guess?Jerkface posted:Luke at the beginning of ANH wants to go to the Imperial Academy and become a faceless tie fighter pilot. Because, at first, he doesn't see any alternative. The point of A New Hope is that Luke's, uh, new hope is what separates him from Vader. Vader, of course, is presented as a faceless tie fighter pilot who's squandering his talents. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 02:53
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Jerkface posted:Luke at the beginning of ANH wants to go to the Imperial Academy and become a faceless tie fighter pilot. I have a sneaking suspicion that when that line was written, the academy wasn't imperial in Lucas' mind. Him wanting to go join the academy is kinda at odds with "it's not like I like the Empire...I hate it!"
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Jan 18, 2016 02:54
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Aren't the guys that come after Han on the Alien ship supposed to be from other movies?
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Jan 18, 2016 02:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm usually good at trainspotting references, Ewan MacGregor had a voice cameo. 
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Jan 18, 2016 02:55
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computer parts posted:I can kinda see some Star Trek 09 references, but even that movie is much more wild than TFA (let's do a drop onto a giant drill from space! Then let's get chased by a giant alien on an ice world!) The giant tentacle monster chase reminds me a little of the Star Trek giant monster chase.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:56
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Raiders of the Lost Ark, THX-1138, and Apocalypse now are all obvious ones to pick out. They are all lucas films or lucas-involved films, which work well with the film's sentimental themes regarding Star Wars and the effects it (and other Lucas films) has had on western culture. When it's available outside theaters I'l probably go into more detail (if people are still pretending it's a bad movie for Reading Points or whatever) Or you could spend your night making the worlds' easiest disney jokes. I'm going to go put nails in wood.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:56
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jivjov posted:I have a sneaking suspicion that when that line was written, the academy wasn't imperial in Lucas' mind. Him wanting to go join the academy is kinda at odds with "it's not like I like the Empire...I hate it!" I have a different theory - Luke doesn't really give a poo poo about the Empire, he cares about getting off world. He only says he hates the empire because apparently Obi-Wan is sympathetic to the Rebellion. Then at the ruins of Alderaan (or maybe specifically when he sees Obi-Wan die) he decides to actually fight them for real.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:57
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jivjov posted:I have a sneaking suspicion that when that line was written, the academy wasn't imperial in Lucas' mind. Him wanting to go join the academy is kinda at odds with "it's not like I like the Empire...I hate it!" This is contextualized further in the deleted scenes with Biggs. It was indeed an imperial academy, and Biggs had just joined it, with the intention of meeting up with some rebel contacts while there and defecting with them (explaining why Biggs has joined the rebellion at the end). That's what Luke has in mind in that cut.
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Jan 18, 2016 02:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In A New Hope, we know right away that Luke hates the Empire because it's his status quo. We soon learn that he's always dreamed of living in a specific type of utopia: Alderaan. Even after the literal Alderaan is destroyed, Luke persists and becomes a rebel guerilla. Rey's motivations are almost a more extreme version of Luke's exact motivations. Luke wants to enlist because it's the best way for him to get off his dirt farm and escape doing chores for his uncle. He is fascinated by Obi Wan's story and idolizes his dead Jedi father. But at the same time he's mostly a naive kid who's bored and doesn't understand real war. He compares assaulting a battle station with going out with his hick friends and shooting at desert critters. Rey is even lonelier and more isolated than Luke but knows even more about the Rebellion/Resistance than Luke did. At the same time she doesn't start actively fighting against the First Order until she's been abducted to their base. Like you said, she kills before that out of self defense, the first time she actually shoots a Storm Trooper she actually has a moment of hesitation. Luke was playing cowboys and princesses until he becomes disillusioned on Hoth and sees the truth of war. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Such as? Apocalypse Now is the super obvious one. I was getting Saving Private Ryan/Omaha Beach vibes from the troop lander at the beginning. Though I can't point to specific shot comparisons. I'm not great at this stuff though. I would guess there are more.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:02
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korusan posted:You're looking at Padme across three films and Rey across one though. We cannot truthfully articulate the entirety of Rey's character yet because we don't know what aspects are going to be revisted. Remember that Luke and Vader both became essentially different characters that built off a few traits out of an archetype - perhaps the same way Rey will be? Furthermore, recall that Empire was derided as incomplete at the time of its release; I'm not saying to expect this to be looked back on in even nearly the same tier, but once we have some threads picked up in future films this one will either be lifted or sink. It is completely fluid right now though. Padme is a strong character even in each prequel film taken individually. Rey also shows definite character growth in TFA (though at the moment I'll avoid going into how it stacks up against Padme's development in the other films). Episode I: Padme starts out as a newly elected, inexperienced queen who seeks to avoid military conflict at all costs and relies on others to make decisions for her. By the end of the film, she's learned to rely on her own judgment and makes the bold choice to return to her planet and form a military alliance with the Gungans, even as all the men in her life (Qui-Gon, Palpatine) tell her she will fail. Instead, she succeeds. Episode II: Padme starts out as a dissident senator who seeks a diplomatic resolution to the Separatist conflict in order to avoid a destructive and costly war, and she opposes the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic. She also makes the decision not to pursue an ill-advised relationship with Anakin. By the end of the film, she's become a full participant in a war against the Separatists, fighting side-by-side with and giving orders to clones. She also gives in to her feelings for Anakin and marries him. This is negative character growth, but it's still strong characterization. Episode III: Padme begins to realize that the war is destroying the ideals of the Republic, turning them into the very thing which they sought to destroy. She pushes once again for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict, only to be stymied by forces beyond her control. She fights to bring her husband back to the light, but rejects him as soon as she sees the full extent of what he's become. She then willingly gives herself over to death so that a new generation may be born and can start anew to right the mistakes of the old one. In a trilogy which is all about people and institutions making immoral choices in a futile and ultimately self-serving attempt to avoid their own death/obsolescence, this is a strong and powerfully symbolic act on Padme's part. Episode VII: Rey is a scrappy, strong-willed scavenger who nevertheless has poor self-esteem and severe abandonment issues. By the end of the film, she's become a member of the Resistance and a fledgling Jedi; she's apparently overcome her self-esteem issues and presumably has given up on waiting around for the people who abandoned her to return, choosing instead to take the initiative and find a parental figure (Luke) on her own.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:02
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Bongo Bill posted:This is contextualized further in the deleted scenes with Biggs. It was indeed an imperial academy, and Biggs had just joined it, with the intention of meeting up with some rebel contacts while there and defecting with them (explaining why Biggs has joined the rebellion at the end). That's what Luke has in mind in that cut. Oh yeah: I forgot that it was pretty clear that Luke wanted to go to the same academy Biggs and Tank went to.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:03
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Guy A. Person posted:Apocalypse Now is the super obvious one. The shot of the new republic getting bapped with the peoples faces illumated by the red glare of their imminent demise is similar to independence days shot of the confused people illuminated by the green glare of their imminent demise. ITs what I thought of during the scene but I dont have either movie on my pc and im not digging out a 20 year old dvd to find it either. The Rathtars are essentially sentient rolling balls from Indy. Harrison Ford defeats one by laying a classic Indy punch on a mook and throwing him to the Rathtar, using the exact same sound effect from an Indy movie punch.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:09
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It's very deliberate that Luke starts out complacent and resigned to joining the Empire, before Obiwan convinces him to go on the drat fool idealistic crusade instead.Guy A. Person posted:Rey's motivations are almost a more extreme version of Luke's exact motivations. Luke wants to enlist because it's the best way for him to get off his dirt farm and escape doing chores for his uncle. He is fascinated by Obi Wan's story and idolizes his dead Jedi father. But at the same time he's mostly a naive kid who's bored and doesn't understand real war. He compares assaulting a battle station with going out with his hick friends and shooting at desert critters. Right, but what i mean is that Luke at least naively believes in the 'fool idealistic crusade', while Rey is caught up in a series of misunderstandings, followed by a desire for personal vengeance that overwhelms her desire for self-punishment. She might know of the Resistance, but she has no reason to support them in particular.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:16
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Those tentacle aliens were balls to lazily reference Raiders of the Lost Ark, it's not a shot reference though just pop culture joke. Also Ford is too drat old for the action to land. That whole sequence was weak honestly. And I don't get why after 40+ years Han suddenly has a fascination with Chewie's gun.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:21
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Bongo Bill posted:Machines making machines! How perverse. I admit, this line completely went over my head when I first saw the film.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:23
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wyoming posted:Those tentacle aliens were balls to lazily reference Raiders of the Lost Ark, it's not a shot reference though just pop culture joke. Also Ford is too drat old for the action to land. They also reference Critters, which is great. Specifically I think its Critters 2 where the critters get into a giant ball and eat people. Edit: The Indy scene & the rathtar scene both feature a tight corridor with Harrison Ford funny running away from a giant ball, Im pretty sure some part of it is a shot reference. Front camera, han running toward, ball behind. v  v
Jerkface fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 03:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's very deliberate that Luke starts out complacent and resigned to joining the Empire, before Obiwan convinces him to go on the drat fool idealistic crusade instead. Oh ok I see what you're saying. I guess I don't see why it's weak characterization though. It's seems to be typical "caught in a war they don't understand" imagery, which seems to be a pretty classic war movie archetype.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:27
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jivjov posted:I have a sneaking suspicion that when that line was written, the academy wasn't imperial in Lucas' mind. Him wanting to go join the academy is kinda at odds with "it's not like I like the Empire...I hate it!" Well, the EU has always portrayed the Imperial Space Academy as being somewhat like the United States Merchant Marine Academy. So it's an institution maintained by the Empire, but it's really just the main place you go to to learn how to be a spacefarer. You don't have to serve in the military after you graduate. You can just serve on a commercial ship if you want to. It sounds like Luke was trying to follow in what he thought were the footsteps of his father: Remember, he had always been told his father was a "navigator on a spice freighter." I have no trouble believing this is basically what Lucas had in mind when he came up with it. Luke says this in one of those deleted scenes with Biggs: quote:LUKE It sounds like graduating from the Academy makes you eligible to be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet in any case. It's something you have to actively avoid afterwards. So the Academy being technically Imperial in nature seems like a pretty fair interpretation. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 03:29
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Rey doesn't join the Resistance. She leaves them the gently caress behind as soon as she gets back to their base. She supports them only insofar as they're the enemies of her enemies, coming to hate what she sees of the First Order during her adventure, but she doesn't show any inclination of wanting to get involved more than necessary. The pivotal moment for her is when, during her attempts to subsist by her wits alone when isolated on a scarred planet, her new family does come back for her. She got something like what she was waiting for, and only afterward was she ready to commit to decisive action rather than reacting and waiting. She reaches out and takes her destiny (Anakin's lightsaber), at first only to keep it from being fulfilled by Kylo Ren whom she hates. During their fight she stops trying to use the Force and starts listening to it, after which the Force at that point stops them from killing each other, and guides her to the only man in the galaxy who can give her some understanding. But she's not with the Resistance. Finn is the one that's with the Resistance. That's what a Resistance member looks like. Some of them. Others look different.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:40
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I've been thinking about that flashback sequence when Rey touches Anakin's lightsaber. What if its a cursed blade? It picked up a lot of bad juju during the prequels, what with all the child murder. Then, in ESB, it gets taken to a cave that's "strong in the dark side" on Dagobah, directly against the wishes of Yoda ("Your weapons, you will not need them"). Luke has his waking nightmare where he kills Vader only to find himself, then he proceeds to get his arm holding the saber cut off in Bespin. It seemed a little out of nowhere that its the only lightsaber we've seen have that kind of "vision" property to it, but its arguably the most historically and spiritually significant weapon in the series.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:41
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Filthy Casual posted:I've been thinking about that flashback sequence when Rey touches Anakin's lightsaber. What if its a cursed blade? It picked up a lot of bad juju during the prequels, what with all the child murder. Then, in ESB, it gets taken to a cave that's "strong in the dark side" on Dagobah, directly against the wishes of Yoda ("Your weapons, you will not need them"). Luke has his waking nightmare where he kills Vader only to find himself, then he proceeds to get his arm holding the saber cut off in Bespin. It's implied Kylo Ren gets a similar vision from communing with Vader's helmet.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:42
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Bongo Bill posted:It's implied Kylo Ren gets a similar vision from communing with Vader's helmet. I always thought that was his livejournal equivalent.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:44
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Filthy Casual posted:I always thought that was his livejournal equivalent.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:51
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Guy A. Person posted:Oh ok I see what you're saying. I guess I don't see why it's weak characterization though. It's seems to be typical "caught in a war they don't understand" imagery, which seems to be a pretty classic war movie archetype. But then, Finn is also caught up in the Resistance through a series of misunderstandings - and then, at the end, really only joins the fight to protect Rey. So it's a Star Wars movie where the two ostensible protagonists have almost no investment in the star conflict. (Comically, at the end, it's Chewbacca who actually blows up the interocitor, while everyone else is standing around distracted by personal drama.) So, you know, Luke's whole trip from Tatooine to Alderaan to Death Star to Yavin reflected his political growth. He goes from pining for utopia to hiding in the jungle and preparing the next raid. In Force Awakens, there's a disconnect between the characters and this planet-world imagery.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Going even further: what is Rey's political stance? That's to say why does Rey kill stormtroopers? I think there is more to it than that, although her reasons are personal. She kills stormtroopers for the same reason she fights Unkar Plutt's goons. Unkar Plutt offers a staggering amount for BB-8 with the expectation that Rey couldn't refuse such an offer. When Rey refuses his offer, he resorts to force. After Rey manages to handle the goons, then the stormtroopers arrive, like backup. It's as if the whole universe is trying to enforce a sort of cosmic eminent domain on BB-8, and Rey needs to defend her rights to own property and/or BB-8's right to personhood. The First Order might not be the only neo-cons in the film.
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Jan 18, 2016 04:03
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But then, Finn is also caught up in the Resistance through a series of misunderstandings - and then, at the end, really only joins the fight to protect Rey. So it's a Star Wars movie where the two ostensible protagonists have almost no investment in the star conflict. Finn aligning with the Resistance was a foregone conclusion. The whole reason the Resistance exists is because they believe the First Order is more dangerous than the Republic thinks, and as a defector, he would naturally agree. The question for him is not what he would fight for, but whether he has the courage to join in rather than just run as far as possible and hide from Starkiller.
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Jan 18, 2016 04:06
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wyoming posted:That whole sequence was weak honestly. It's because he, just like Chewie and Leia, are implied to have ended up repeating their mundane daily shtick, which left them unprepared for the new challenges; Han only now has an interest in Chewie's bowcaster because his daily ritual has been broken by Rey and Finn/New Star Wars fans/New movies, and he can continue developing. Similar deal with Leia; she continued being Plucky Rebel Leader and left other, more inept people create the New Republic. Luke attempts to live a similar mundane life before it's broken by the first new character (Kylo Ren), resulting in him leaving the story to find the next Plot Point. For all intents and purposes Chewie, Leia, and Han were their end-of-ROTJ selves, just older. Because that's what the old star wars fans expected. They only change because new, fresh Star Wars is injected into the pot.
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Jan 18, 2016 04:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But then, Finn is also caught up in the Resistance through a series of misunderstandings - and then, at the end, really only joins the fight to protect Rey. So it's a Star Wars movie where the two ostensible protagonists have almost no investment in the star conflict. That's because the current conflict follows the same beats as Old Star Wars; it's established pretty clearly that all the old threats are effortlessly evaded because of how cliche they now are. They basically Speedrun the death-star. The actual conflict comes from the individual new members of the conflict; First Order isn't scary because "they're the Empire, but darker", it's because they have the guy what stabbed Han. They manage to exist so long out of straight apathy towards them; who wants to go cosplay as stormtroopers/rebels when there's a senate to run/corrupt/complain about being boring/complain about complainers not finding the senate interesting? It's quite notable that the Starkiller only manages to successfully obliterate planets because it's empowered by a New Star Wars Character vigorously screaming at an old shot from an ancient propaganda movie. As well as the fact that the only stormtrooper that manages to go toe-to-toe with a New Star Wars Character is adorned with New Star Wars Props. The most unique settings are also the only ones where a protagonist gets maimed or killed. Rey becomes a super competent hero not because she eats Ren's mind or whatever, it's because she was rewarded when she successfully fooled a stormtrooper with an old trick, and realized yep, this is Star Wars, let's do Star Wars things. In shorter terms: if you felt the point of PT senate scenes was to make the viewer bored about politics, then these scenes are made to make you accept that Old Star Wars is inconsequential to New Star Wars. No amount of crying about how depraved New Star Wars' works and merchandise is will prevent kids, teens, and young adults from enjoying New Star Wars instead of your (totally pure and free from greed) Old Star Wars works and merchandise. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 04:16
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Lord Hydronium posted:So the Emo Kyle Ren Twitter is just a transcript of his conversations with Vader's helmet? Perfect.
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Jan 18, 2016 04:20
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Bongo Bill posted:Rey doesn't join the Resistance. She leaves them the gently caress behind as soon as she gets back to their base. She supports them only insofar as they're the enemies of her enemies, coming to hate what she sees of the First Order during her adventure, but she doesn't show any inclination of wanting to get involved more than necessary. The pivotal moment for her is when, during her attempts to subsist by her wits alone when isolated on a scarred planet, her new family does come back for her. She got something like what she was waiting for, and only afterward was she ready to commit to decisive action rather than reacting and waiting. She reaches out and takes her destiny (Anakin's lightsaber), at first only to keep it from being fulfilled by Kylo Ren whom she hates. During their fight she stops trying to use the Force and starts listening to it, after which the Force at that point stops them from killing each other, and guides her to the only man in the galaxy who can give her some understanding. Those are all good points. e: But then what was up with the scene in the beginning where Rey sits outside her AT-AT house wearing that old Rebel helmet? One of the most prominent motifs in TFA involves characters putting on and taking off various masks and helmets. I took that scene as an expression of Rey's destiny as a member of the Resistance. I think she's still a Resistance member, just as Luke was a Rebel despite his parallel training as a Jedi. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jan 18, 2016 |
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Jan 18, 2016 04:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But then, Finn is also caught up in the Resistance through a series of misunderstandings - and then, at the end, really only joins the fight to protect Rey. So it's a Star Wars movie where the two ostensible protagonists have almost no investment in the star conflict. Yeahhhhhhhh, ok I will give you that. I don't think it's necessarily bad to have the two main characters get caught up in a war they don't even want to be a part of, especially with the theme of an endless war with unclear goals. They both try to flee on Takodana and it's not a huge surprise that Chewie is the one to actually finish the job - Finn flat out says he only came to Laser Moon 3 to save Rey. But what I am starting to agree with you on is where they are at by the end of the story as well as how the editing obviously removed things that could have helped clarify things. Like, Finn and Rey are only fighting to protect each other, but where Maz comes in and tries to drag Rey into the conflict comes off as weird and dogmatic. Rey is upset about her friend bailing and Maz's response is basically "hey become a laser sword ninja and fight these guys". I guess ideally in that situation the message should be "there's nowhere you(r friend) can flee, you need to fight these guys before there's nowhere to run to" (ironically the same message but much more explicit in Guardians of the Galaxy). But everything after the showdown with Ren becomes muddied. Rey returns to the Resistance base with an injured Finn and then decided to go train as a Jedi, why? Because that's what Han Solo - who wanted her to apprentice on his ship and never mentioned her being a Jedi - would have wanted? Like the best you can say is she wants revenge on Ren for Han and to a lesser extent Finn but man that's a totally non-Jedi motivation. There's definitely some links missing there. Finn I think - like Bongo Bill points out - has more reason to join the Resistance, but that's basically because he was reborn and Poe Dameron basically gifts him with a completely new identity (new name, signature jacket, story as "a big deal in the Resistance") and as a result is like the father/brother figure for him. It's really not "character growth" so much as it is him being a complete blank slate at the beginning of the movie who weirdly steps into Poe's life for awhile, and now that's just who he is: a Resistance fighter.
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Jan 18, 2016 05:28
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Guy A. Person posted:But everything after the showdown with Ren becomes muddied. Rey returns to the Resistance base with an injured Finn and then decided to go train as a Jedi, why? Because that's what Han Solo - who wanted her to apprentice on his ship and never mentioned her being a Jedi - would have wanted? Like the best you can say is she wants revenge on Ren for Han and to a lesser extent Finn but man that's a totally non-Jedi motivation. There's definitely some links missing there. I thought the implication was that she became more genuinely interested in the Force (and the Jedi) during the fight with Ren when she closed her eyes serenely and simply felt it, without trying to direct it herself.
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Jan 18, 2016 05:41
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jivjov posted:I have a sneaking suspicion that when that line was written, the academy wasn't imperial in Lucas' mind. Him wanting to go join the academy is kinda at odds with "it's not like I like the Empire...I hate it!" In the radio drama this is expanded upon a bit via dialogue with Biggs- he's about to serve on the "Grand Ecliptic" which sounds like a merchant marine ship, and from there he plans to jump ship and join the Alliance. So the Academy seems to be where you have to go if you want to work on a spaceship.
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Jan 18, 2016 05:44
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Guy A. Person posted:But what I am starting to agree with you on is where they are at by the end of the story as well as how the editing obviously removed things that could have helped clarify things. Like, Finn and Rey are only fighting to protect each other, but where Maz comes in and tries to drag Rey into the conflict comes off as weird and dogmatic. Rey is upset about her friend bailing and Maz's response is basically "hey become a laser sword ninja and fight these guys". I guess ideally in that situation the message should be "there's nowhere you(r friend) can flee, you need to fight these guys before there's nowhere to run to" (ironically the same message but much more explicit in Guardians of the Galaxy). But everything after the showdown with Ren becomes muddied. Rey returns to the Resistance base with an injured Finn and then decided to go train as a Jedi, why? Because that's what Han Solo - who wanted her to apprentice on his ship and never mentioned her being a Jedi - would have wanted? Like the best you can say is she wants revenge on Ren for Han and to a lesser extent Finn but man that's a totally non-Jedi motivation. There's definitely some links missing there. I imagine that is going to be an important part of Episode 8; Rey explicitly wanted to kill Kylo, and is only going to Luke to become better at doing that. Luke, realizing after Kylo that he cant just train random schmucks, refuses because Luke isn't about revenge-murders. Presumably from there she goes off to kill Kylo on her own, frustrated that Luke only trains her spiritually and not in the ways of sword-and-choke. Then either fails horribly, or succeeds gorribly, causing her to swallow her pride and get trained correctly. Tldr it's a crap motivation in-universe and will likely be acknowledged as such.
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Jan 18, 2016 05:48
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Lord Hydronium posted:So the Emo Kyle Ren Twitter is just a transcript of his conversations with Vader's helmet? Yeah, but with a little bit of Doug's "dear journal" segments thrown in.
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Jan 18, 2016 06:16
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So, I know my justification for thinking this is basically the flimsy-est poo poo ever, but does anyone else think Rey's parents might have been ex-Imperials (fleeing "justice" implied)?
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Jan 18, 2016 09:48
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