Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

BurningStone posted:

Does somebody want to spurg about the air war on the Eastern Front? It never seems to come up in general accounts, but I've heard a claim that it was secretly decisive.

I made a super long post about this a long time ago, I think, if you feel like digging through the thread or archives. In any case this is obviously a huge area to cover, is there something specific you're wondering about?

# ? Jan 18, 2016 02:11

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# ? May 23, 2024 18:04

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Fangz posted:

If you've played videogames involving the Brits in Normandy you'd know them and love them. Mainly they seem to be the only Allied tanks devs think can match up against the invulnerable hordes of German Panthers and Tigers.

There's a number of inaccuracies here. Firstly while the Firefly was a couple of tons heavier than the 75mm it was adapted from, it's fairly comparable to the late war 76mm version of the Sherman. It's certainly not comparable to the 40+ ton Sherman Jumbos the US produced.

Secondly mostly Fireflies fired standard APCBC ammo, not sabotted ammo. The standard ammo was already able to penetrate a Tiger frontally at 1000 yards. The APDS didn't factor into it.

The US did not 'already' have the 76mm. The Firefly was being worked on in 1943, whereas the first variants of the 76mm Sherman was being worked on in March 1944, and didn't get deployed until August 1944.

The Firefly saw very effective use mixed in 25%/75% units together with 75mm Shermans. Why didn't the US build it? Because hindsight is 20/20, and in the event the Allies were fortunate in that the majority of the heavy tanks were in fact faced by the British.

'Blaming' the 75mm Sherman on Montgomery is really weird, though.

"Really" heavy may be an overestimate, but I didn't mean to imply they were typically firing sabot; sabot was an additional cool thing they got. The gun as standard was better (that is, better than the 75mm, not better than sabot. Sabot had better AP properties but unreliable accuracy).

The 76mm is more of a surprise; I thought the 76mm was in US service in 1943 also (on hellcats IIRC), but wasn't in a Sherman because there was no anticipated need for it? i.e. when looking for a gun to upgun the Sherman, the obvious answer was "Just stick the 76mm we already developed and make on it, instead of importing the design"?

I was aware of the 3:1 organisation, though; it's an interesting pattern that keeps cropping up in British armoured squads, three "standard" vehicles and a heavy-killer variant. Though IIRC, New Zealand groups sometimes concentrated the fireflies together instead of allocating them out on a per-troop basis.

EDIT: Didn't most sabot end up going to Challengers*?

*the first one. No, not that one, the first first one.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 02:19

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Gargamel Gibson posted:

Why did the beret become a popular military hat? It doesn't keep you warm, it doesn't keep the sun out of your eyes, you can't wear it under a helmet. All it does is look sharp and fit inside a pocket.

Modern military berets are a very minimalist version of something that used to be much more elaborate headgear. Traditional berets can be loving huge and most certainly would do most of the various duties which you would expect a peasant hat to.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 02:43

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

The US didn't really start out working on an upgunned Sherman-instead, the Army had a whole bunch of different development programs designed to build a replacement for the Sherman, including the M7 and T23 Medium tanks. Unfortunately for the Army, these projects didn't pan out-the M7 was slightly faster but had worse armor and armament, and the T23 had a goofy electric transmission that wasn't nearly as reliable as it needed to be. Fortunately, the program wasn't a total loss-the T23's turret had been designed to be compatible with the Sherman, and when the project was canned the Army decided to install the T23's turret and armament in the Sherman as a part of a larger batch of upgrades to the design (Which also included the transition to "Wet" ammunition racks). This was mostly accomplished by 1943, and the first M4A1(76W) Shermans were delivered to Europe by Spring of '44.

While the the British put a huge emphasis on having Fireflies available for D-Day, however, the 76mm Shermans stayed put-the Army was concerned that trying to have them for the invasion would complicate the logistics for delivering tank ammunition immensely (Since you've got a whole new family of ammunition to start delivering to both the tank divisions and the separate tank battalions), and that there wasn't enough time to train the crews for them. Fortunately for the Army, this ended up being the right decision-the British were the ones who ended up fighting the brunt of the German armored forces in Normandy, while the resistance the Americans faced was handled well enough by 75mm Shermans, right up until the debut of the 76mm during Operation Cobra.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 02:50

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

poo poo, the brits rejected the firefly for the longest time for the same reason as the US Army: they had heavier tanks with larger guns in the works and didn't want to direct resources to upgunning older vehicles. Happily the people who were pushing for the firefly won out in Britain, as the vehicles that were supposed to have those guns integrally didn't show up until about the same time as the US heavy tanks.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:09

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

The firefly was clunky as gently caress too so I can see opposition if it isn't needed. The turret had to get rearranged and the gun stuffed in sideways, which did nothing good for the ability to load it in a reasonable amount of time.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:18

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Personally I consider the 'sideways gun, radio sticking out the back of the turret, paint the barrel to make it look shorter' kludginess of the firefly to be immensely charming. But that's probably because I don't have to fight in it.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jan 19, 2016

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:24

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

barrel camo is the best thing.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:40

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Gargamel Gibson posted:

Why did the beret become a popular military hat? It doesn't keep you warm, it doesn't keep the sun out of your eyes, you can't wear it under a helmet. All it does is look sharp and fit inside a pocket.

While both of these things are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear one by themselves berets are also very easy to make in different colours for the purposes of unit identification. The further ease of just sticking cap badges on for more granularity is a further bonus. Also they're one of the few hats you can stick a pair of headphones on over and not have them get in the way all silly like. Apparently the last was a genuine concern for the British tank units.

Fangz posted:

The Firefly saw very effective use mixed in 25%/75% units together with 75mm Shermans.

spectralent posted:

I was aware of the 3:1 organisation, though; it's an interesting pattern that keeps cropping up in British armoured squads, three "standard" vehicles and a heavy-killer variant. Though IIRC, New Zealand groups sometimes concentrated the fireflies together instead of allocating them out on a per-troop basis.

They actually got to 50/50 replacement of the 75mm in more elite units like the Guards Armoured division, and teeeechnically there was a single full firefly troop per squadron, which were then broken up and added to the existing 75mm troops so that instead of a squadron fielding four three-tank troops, they would field three four-tank troops.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:55

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

HEY GAL posted:

no, that's hard core calvinists, or the fanatical fringe of catholics like that dude who assassinated William the Silent with a wheellock pistol firing square bullets

This is just a magical sentence

# ? Jan 18, 2016 04:45

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

In general what are some of your favorite military hats/helmets in history. Like what do you think are the most badass/hilariously stupid, etc.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 04:46

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Kanine posted:

In general what are some of your favorite military hats/helmets in history. Like what do you think are the most badass/hilariously stupid, etc.

The pickelhaube, because it makes me think someone in the Kaiser's military bureau decided infantry should charge like bulls

# ? Jan 18, 2016 05:29

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

FAUXTON posted:

The pickelhaube, because it makes me think someone in the Kaiser's military bureau decided infantry should charge like bulls

Has anyone ever been stabbed with a pickelhaube?

# ? Jan 18, 2016 05:37

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

FAUXTON posted:

The pickelhaube, because it makes me think someone in the Kaiser's military bureau decided infantry should charge like bulls

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/

Here you go!

You're... welcome? Is that the word that goes there?

Private purchase Pickelhauben are one of the most fantastically pre-WWI things that has ever existed.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 05:41

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

HEY GAL posted:

bullets that have either been cut or hammered into cubes are an assassin's weapon because they do terrible things to the inside of a human body. the guy who killed william the silent loaded his pistol with three of them at once and shot him at point blank range.

the reason he did this is that the king of spain had put a bounty on william's head

when people tell you that the past was a more innocent time and the world is only getting worse, they are wrong; the only difference between him and us is we would have streamed it to youtube, maybe the assassin would have had some friends add snazzy details in postproduction once he had received his martyr's death

Still not as hardcore as his torture and execution. From Wikipedia:

quote:

At his trial, G�rard was sentenced to be brutally � even by the standards of that time � killed. The magistrates decreed that the right hand of G�rard should be burned off with a red-hot iron, that his flesh should be torn from his bones with pincers in six different places, that he should be quartered and disemboweled alive, his heart torn from his bosom and flung in his face, and that, finally, his head should be taken off.

G�rard's torture was also very brutal. On the first night of his imprisonment G�rard was hung on a pole and lashed with a whip. After that his wounds were smeared with honey and a goat was brought to lick the honey off his skin with his rough tongue. The goat however refused to touch the body of the sentenced. After this and other tortures he was left to pass the night with his hands and feet bound together, like a ball, so sleep would be difficult. During the following three days, he was repeatedly mocked and hung on a pole with his hands tied behind his back. Then a weight of 300 metric pounds (150 kg) was attached to each of his big toes for half an hour. After this half hour G�rard was fitted with shoes made of well-oiled, uncured dog skin; the shoes were two fingers shorter than his feet. In this state he was put before a fire. When the shoes warmed up, they contracted, crushing the feet inside them to stumps. When the shoes were removed, his half-broiled skin was torn off. After his feet were damaged, his armpits were branded. After that he was dressed in a shirt soaked in alcohol. Then burning bacon fat was poured over him and sharp nails were stuck between the flesh and the nails of his hands and feet. G�rard is said to have remained calm during his torture. On 14 July 1584, G�rard was executed.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 06:22

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Chamale posted:

Has anyone ever been stabbed with a pickelhaube?

They must have, artillery pickelhaube have a sort of rounded ball on the top. Makes me wonder if they were always like that.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 06:32

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

That torture :stare:

I dunno if I like any helmet more than Stahlhelm. The E-German helmet is really stupid looking, though.

And, oooh, that stupid Red Army pointy winter hat. Exactly the opposite of what at least the WHFB Empire troops (and I guess irl Landslnecht) are wearing in style and sexyness

# ? Jan 18, 2016 07:02

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Pretty much a majority of the shako from the Napoleonic Wars, all but the last generation of bicorn hats look neat (the latest ones look comically tiny) all types of Brodie helmet, the M1 helmet, the Adrian helmet and tricorn in general are pretty baller. Also, the Morion helmet.

I don't really hate on any head gear come to think about it. Even that hilarious RKKA experiment from the twenties.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 07:11

BurningStone: Jun 3, 2011

bewbies posted:

I made a super long post about this a long time ago, I think, if you feel like digging through the thread or archives. In any case this is obviously a huge area to cover, is there something specific you're wondering about?

How important was it to the outcome? I've read both general accounts of the entire war, and detailed ones of individual battles, and the air war is almost never mentioned. The only two things I can remember are the Soviet planes getting destroyed in their hangers on the first day, and the Stalingrad resupply attempts. Accounts of the Pacific always make it clear it was a combined land-sea-air war, and accounts of the western front will talk about the Battle of Britain, strategic bombing, and tactical air support. But writers seem to forget planes ever went east of Berlin.

I'll check out that documentary link too, thanks.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 07:52

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

JcDent posted:

And, oooh, that stupid Red Army pointy winter hat. Exactly the opposite of what at least the WHFB Empire troops (and I guess irl Landslnecht) are wearing in style and sexyness

The budionovka?

Yeah, not the most stylish thing ever produced. Still, in freezing cold it's comfortable as hell when you turn the flaps down:

# ? Jan 18, 2016 08:50

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

SeanBeansShako posted:

that hilarious RKKA experiment from the twenties.

You can't just drop this in here and not elaborate, bub

# ? Jan 18, 2016 08:56

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

JcDent posted:

Early war has action, excitement, stuning victories and defeats while late war is Normandy slow grind Market Garden grind grind grind Berlin? Nobody cares about Italy (much like Germans shouldn't have) and the rest of Europe is a Fury-grey slog. I would like to know more, but it... inopportune.

As for Soviet soldier: old folks used to tell me that German soldier was civilized, had boots to shine and liked dining indoors while the Russian could go dirty, straight through the swamps, and that's why they won.

A bit late to the party, but this is correct in a sense.

By the time he lost at Stalingrad, the German soldier was used to being part of a victorious combined arms juggernaut with superior training and logistics, and was losing even basic creature comforts such as being in a hot, dry place to celebrate christmas. All the while Hitler hosed over even minor strategems that could alleviate the tactical situation.

The soviet soldier had always known want, defeat and lovely leadership, and so when they trapped the Germans and received fresh men, good equipment and earned victories, their morale went up as the Germans went down. Stalin wasn't a much better tactician than Hitler or anything, but having an inflexible, clueless mass-murdering psychopath in charge feels a lot better when your offensives have a chance of succeeding.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 09:05

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Tias posted:

The soviet citizen had always known want, defeat and lovely leadership

Fixed that for you.

While leafing through Flames of War books yesterday (sue me) it struck me that there are few worse times and places to be a soldier than being a German on the Eastern front on in 1945. Like, do you even have anything to hope for, even if you smash the next Russian/Soviet assault?

I wonder how those tank - and other - school teachers felt when they were mustered to fight.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 09:19

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

Dragging this over from Grey Hunter's War in the Pacific LP, which somehow devolved into tankchat. Because tankchat is eternal.

dtkozl posted:

Acebuckeye13 I agree with you pretty much all the way but for this:

It is not arguable. Yes the Panther would have been best if it was firing over 1000 meters away over open ground. Then its superior optics and gun would have told. But it is still a better than a Sherman 75mm at 300 meters in dense cover, and more often than not it was in an ambush position, not the other way around. Surrounded by their own infantry. That you dismiss frontal armor that negates your gun 100% of the time and a gun that can negate your armor 90?% of the time through some arcane formula of speed and endurance is nonsense. The fact is in an equal engagement the tank that acquires a target first and engages tends to win. How you can say a better tank for the allies wouldn't have saved many lives is ridiculous.

As for them not being common? Yes strictly speaking they would not have been common for american units since the majority of the German armor was opposite of the British. But they both had a lot of Shermans AND saw a lot of tank on tank combat. The tip of the spear is an extreme minority, but it sees the majority of combat and the vast majority of armor.

Once again, whether or not the 76mm was "Better" than the 75mm for the specific conditions of June 1944 is absolutely arguable. As I've said, the 75mm tank was unquestionably superior to the 76mm against infantry and anti-tank guns, for a number of reasons-the HE load was larger, the practical rate of fire was better (The 76mm M1 had a habit of kicking up a tremendous amount of dust when it fired, when often forced the gunner to wait until the smoke cleared before firing another round), and at that point in time the crews wouldn't have had any time to train. You're also making it seem as though the 76mm was a Panther-killer, when it strictly wasn't-76mm guns had almost as much difficulty penetrating the Panther from the front as 75mm guns, and it wasn't until the introduction of the M36 tank destroyer and HVAP rounds for the 76mm that American forces could reliably take out Panthers from the front.

Ironically, I can agree with you that the 76mm tank saved lives, but not because its gun was better. It's because it featured the "wet" ammunition stowage system, which greatly reduced the tank's chance of burning after suffering from a penetrating hit. That saved lives, and was implemented in both 75mm and 76mm tanks thereafter. Having a marginally better gun-when as you already mentioned, was secondary to getting off the first shot (Which, incidentally, the Sherman was much better equipped to do in the first place) would have only helped in a relative fraction of cases in Normandy compared to the overall number of armored engagements, and that is why its arguable.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 09:52

Letmebefrank: Oct 9, 2012; Entitled

P-Mack posted:

The Puckle gun was designed to be capable of firing either round or square bullets, the latter was recommended to only be used against non-Christian opponents.

Checked the Wikipedia page for Puckle Gun :

Wikipedia posted:

Puckle demonstrated two configurations of the basic design: one, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets. The square bullets were considered to be more damaging. They would, according to the patent, "convince the Turks of the benefits of Christian civilization". The weapon was also reported as able to fire shot, with each discharge containing sixteen musket balls

Persuative methods for cultural interaction!

# ? Jan 18, 2016 09:53

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Letmebefrank posted:

Persuative methods for cultural interaction!

We'll still shoot you, but it will hurt less.

As for tank chat, this one time I was following this thread, previous WitP LP and I guess wolfenstein LP and I would get lost because the three would be discussing same or similar subject.

_{still wainting on organization and tactics in ACW and Franco-Prussian war}

# ? Jan 18, 2016 10:32

Splode: Jun 18, 2013; put some clothes on you little freak

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Dragging this over from Grey Hunter's War in the Pacific LP, which somehow devolved into tankchat. Because tankchat is eternal.

You're a terrible person. Don't bring in the weirdos from the LP thread, they're not worth talking to.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 10:45

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

JcDent posted:

We'll still shoot you, but it will hurt less.

We'll be more accurate though and your doctors will suck more, so bit of a toss up.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 10:56

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

JcDent posted:

We'll still shoot you, but it will hurt less.

As for tank chat, this one time I was following this thread, previous WitP LP and I guess wolfenstein LP and I would get lost because the three would be discussing same or similar subject.

_{still wainting on organization and tactics in ACW and Franco-Prussian war}

Now we have the same thing, except crazy people and Operation Sealion :downs:

# ? Jan 18, 2016 11:02

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Acebuckeye13 posted:

-the British were the ones who ended up fighting the brunt of the German armored forces in Normandy

Hmm, I wasn't aware of this. Certainly not something that shows up in popular media

Edit: in pickelhaube chat, they're not as German as most people think; among other, Britain used them for a while -

http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2013/the-british-home-service-helmet

feedmegin fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Jan 18, 2016

# ? Jan 18, 2016 11:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeanBeansShako posted:

Also, the Morion helmet.

while i was shopping for helmets, i got an email from my hauptmann in which he said "Do not buy a morion, even though they are cheap: we are a Protestant regiment." you can hear the pained sniff from here.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 11:54

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Morion helmet more like Moron helmet amirite?

# ? Jan 18, 2016 12:15

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

feedmegin posted:

Hmm, I wasn't aware of this. Certainly not something that shows up in popular media

70-30, and it included the majority of tigers and panthers*, to the extent that the US encountered only a handful of tigers period on the drive to berlin.

*though even then not many, since the bulk of german armour was still Panzers and StuGs.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 12:45

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

FAUXTON posted:

You can't just drop this in here and not elaborate, bub

Lucky for you the thing is above your post right now thanks to the modern convience that is the internet.

HEY GAL posted:

while i was shopping for helmets, i got an email from my hauptmann in which he said "Do not buy a morion, even though they are cheap: we are a Protestant regiment." you can hear the pained sniff from here.

Ouch, that sucks. That is like, Roundhead level obsessiveness.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 14:38

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

HEY GAL posted:

while i was shopping for helmets, i got an email from my hauptmann in which he said "Do not buy a morion, even though they are cheap: we are a Protestant regiment." you can hear the pained sniff from here.

What do protestants wear, and do they actually go to the trouble of making Catholics change helmet if they defect?

Or is that to stave off everybody buying one?

Also, buckeye, I've got a picture of 3rd and 4th AD's data, showing for them at least that a tank being a Sherman rather than a Panther was a bigger advantage than either being on defense or firing first (although not both). Also remind the person that infantry are people too, and any discussion of saving lives has to include any degradation in infantry support.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 14:46

PlantHead: Jan 2, 2004

The Pith Helmet, was every helmet made to be too big, or did soldiers just all have really small heads?
Also it looks like a boob.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 16:24

Hazzard: Mar 16, 2013

xthetenth posted:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/

Here you go!

You're... welcome? Is that the word that goes there?

Private purchase Pickelhauben are one of the most fantastically pre-WWI things that has ever existed.

Is it just the perspective or were Pickelhaubes quite squat? Media always makes them much taller than they look in those pictures.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 16:27

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

PlantHead posted:

The Pith Helmet, was every helmet made to be too big, or did soldiers just all have really small heads?
Also it looks like a boob.

Proper pith helmets are supposed to be like that.

It's basically this thing you wear made of cork or something similar, that can be soaked in water to keep your head cool. Being big also helped ensure proper ventilation, and keeps the sun out of your eyes.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 18, 2016

# ? Jan 18, 2016 16:29