Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

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the_homemaster: Dec 7, 2015

Ah sorry my bad, guess I'm an idiot

# ? Jan 17, 2016 09:48

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# ? May 31, 2024 08:48

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

I don't think it's abnormal to experience a similar feeling of dread from tales about giant invisible squid as from a book about Italian family life.

I seriously mean it, not only because Ferrante's characters are Italian. Very different books can give you a similar type of feeling, and it's cool and interesting. But ppl in this thread might get triggered the word 'lovecraftian', even though it describes your own feelings.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 10:05

Popular Human: Jul 17, 2005; and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it

Smoking Crow posted:

How does everyone in the thread acquire their books

I mostly get them through my city library's Overdrive system. Usually I don't have to wait for anything because everyone's got 100 holds on YA Book That Came Out This Month, but I've been waiting on that Ferrante book for like three weeks now.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 14:28

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

the_homemaster posted:

Ah sorry my bad, guess I'm an idiot

Nah its cool I appreciate you being willing to join into the conversation I just paused for a second and was like "wait what?"

# ? Jan 17, 2016 17:15

Chamberk: Jan 11, 2004; when there is nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire

I'm reading Moby Dick now for the first time since undergrad and it's really good, though I'm skimming those chapters where he talks about Who Draws a Whale the Best

# ? Jan 17, 2016 19:11

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

I want a Queequig prequel

# ? Jan 17, 2016 19:12

paradoxGentleman: Dec 10, 2013; wheres the jester, I could do with some pointless nonsense right about now

Chamberk posted:

I'm reading Moby Dick now for the first time since undergrad and it's really good, though I'm skimming those chapters where he talks about Who Draws a Whale the Best

I have never read Moby Dick but I hear it's one of those books with very long tangents on minor subjects; I think at one point there is a long discussion on how whale fat is conserved or something on that note.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 19:38

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

The tangents are some of the best parts, though.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 20:11

Chamberk: Jan 11, 2004; when there is nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire

Oh, some of the tangents are great. But some are just Melville telling you everything that was known about whales circa 1850, which can be amusing ("I tell you, the whale is a FISH, not a mammal!") but can get dull pretty quickly.

However, the characters like Queequeg, Ahab, and Starbuck are great. Just don't expect too much from Ishmael after the first 100 pages.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 20:14

Lord Krangdar: Oct 24, 2007; These are the secrets of death we teach.

I'm glad I read all the tangents, even though some were better than others. Like how would you know which ones were skippable if you didn't actually read them? Plus I appreciated the contrast between the pseudo-scientific view of the whales(s) and the treatment of them as almost supernatural.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 20:24

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

i like the parts where they kiss the whales, then each other, and then go back to kissing the whales again.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 20:29

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

Knowing exactly what a whale is and isn't is important when reading Moby Dick, the "tangent" chapters are quite important to the book.

Chamberk posted:

However, the characters like Queequeg, Ahab, and Starbuck are great. Just don't expect too much from Ishmael after the first 100 pages.

Stubb's #1.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 21:37

Rabbit Hill: Mar 11, 2009; God knows what lives in me in place of me.; Grimey Drawer

Stubb is the best, a goddamn adorable laugh riot. Anyone who dislikes Stubb is no friend of mine. :colbert:

# ? Jan 17, 2016 23:49

A human heart: Oct 10, 2012

Chamberk posted:

Oh, some of the tangents are great. But some are just Melville telling you everything that was known about whales circa 1850, which can be amusing ("I tell you, the whale is a FISH, not a mammal!") but can get dull pretty quickly.

However, the characters like Queequeg, Ahab, and Starbuck are great. Just don't expect too much from Ishmael after the first 100 pages.

Early science stuff is really cool and those chapters aren't boring at all.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 00:27

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

Tree Goat posted:

i like the parts where they kiss the whales, then each other, and then go back to kissing the whales again.

Squeeze! Squeeze! Squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me, and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-labourers' hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally, as much as to say,�Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill humour or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 01:55

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

The whaling parts are essential to understanding Ishmael's construction of the entire narrative after the fact and his deliberate paralleling of Moby Dick and Ahab, though I could probably have done with a lot less of that chapter where he talks for 20 pages about why the color white is scary. Even if you're just skimming those chapters it's important to get a sense of what each chapter is about and why he's going on that particular digression.

And yes Stubb is clearly the best of the mates.

EDIT: I don't know if this is too meta-narrative for a novel from 1851 or whatever but try to dissociate the Ishmael-as-newbie-whaler who does basically nothing on the voyage and Ishmael-as-cetology-expert who is the actual narrator. The whaling digressions are not things that Ishmael-the-sailor wove into his story of the Pequod's voyage, they're things that Ishmael-the-narrator puts there on purpose to punctuate the events of the story and explain a lot of things. The same is true of the segments where Ishmael-the-sailor couldn't possibly have been observing the events in question and the narrative slides into a Shakespearean play style. There are an awful lot of symbols that he introduces in his moments as narrator that are mirrored by events that happen; compare the very first paragraph of the book with events that happen in the last 5-10 chapters.

Nakar fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jan 18, 2016

# ? Jan 18, 2016 03:34

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

The Whiteness of the Whale is one of my favorite chapters

# ? Jan 18, 2016 05:29

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

BTW I'm taking a world lit class next semester, and I am gonna gently caress ya'll up so bad on book chat.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 05:35

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

blue squares posted:

BTW I'm taking a world lit class next semester, and I am gonna gently caress ya'll up so bad on book chat.

Show us the book list!

# ? Jan 18, 2016 07:30

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Lol Im gonna go to UNIVERSITY to get SMART

# ? Jan 18, 2016 13:01

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

blue squares posted:

BTW I'm taking a world lit class next semester, and I am gonna gently caress ya'll up so bad on book chat.

Son, I have only shown you a fraction of my true power

*hair turns yellow*

# ? Jan 18, 2016 16:52

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

Chamberk posted:

Oh, some of the tangents are great. But some are just Melville telling you everything that was known about whales circa 1850, which can be amusing ("I tell you, the whale is a FISH, not a mammal!") but can get dull pretty quickly.

However, the characters like Queequeg, Ahab, and Starbuck are great. Just don't expect too much from Ishmael after the first 100 pages.

Actually, the cetological tangents are awfully important to Moby-Dick, in that they are Ishmael's retrospective attempt to reduce the white whale to human terms. By defining the whale, he diminishes it. He spends forty-two-odd chapters of whalelore trying to pigeonhole a murderous freak of nature as just another ornery sperm whale. Succeeding would strip away its soul and rob it of its mythic power. Scientific inquiry is just as much a weapon against the white whale as a literal harpoon, since in Ishmael's mind the whale's terrifying invincibility assumes both physical and spiritual dimensions.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 17:20

Chamberk: Jan 11, 2004; when there is nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire

ACTUALLY, i understand that they're important but it can be frustrating when the narrative and characters are put aside for 30 pages to talk about different parts of the whale. i'm not saying Melville did a bad job, it's just that reading this book requires a bit more work and some adjustment from my usual expectations for a story.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 17:47

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

Chamberk posted:

ACTUALLY, i understand that they're important but it can be frustrating when the narrative and characters are put aside for 30 pages to talk about different parts of the whale. i'm not saying Melville did a bad job, it's just that reading this book requires a bit more work and some adjustment from my usual expectations for a story.

Quit Being a loving Child

e: in the middle of The Blind Assassin rn and feel the same way about the eponymous embedded sci-fi story always getting interrupted by old lady problems, but you're not supposed to say these things in the Literahchah thread.

Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 18, 2016

# ? Jan 18, 2016 18:04

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

at the date posted:

Quit Being a loving Child

e: in the middle of The Blind Assassin rn and feel the same way about the eponymous embedded sci-fi story always getting interrupted by old lady problems, but you're not supposed to say these things in the Literahchah thread.

Honestly I have up on that book for the same reason. Not because she was an old lady but I was tired of hearing the morose nostalgia of the wealthy and being expected to sympathize

# ? Jan 18, 2016 18:38

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Isn't Atwood some sub New Yorker level housewife trash

# ? Jan 18, 2016 18:41

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

Ras Het posted:

Isn't Atwood some sub New Yorker level housewife trash

No.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 18:56

Cloks: Feb 1, 2013; by Azathoth

What a bizarre accusation.

Atwood is a Canadian novelist who writes literary sci-fi and doesn't like the sci-fi label.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 19:01

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

Ras Het posted:

Isn't Atwood some sub New Yorker level housewife trash

sounds pretty sexist to mee

# ? Jan 18, 2016 19:02

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

at the date posted:

Actually, the cetological tangents are awfully important to Moby-Dick, in that they are Ishmael's retrospective attempt to reduce the white whale to human terms. By defining the whale, he diminishes it. He spends forty-two-odd chapters of whalelore trying to pigeonhole a murderous freak of nature as just another ornery sperm whale. Succeeding would strip away its soul and rob it of its mythic power. Scientific inquiry is just as much a weapon against the white whale as a literal harpoon, since in Ishmael's mind the whale's terrifying invincibility assumes both physical and spiritual dimensions.

I think he had in mind all the while that he would conclude as he does - "Dissect him how I may, then, I but go skin deep; I know him not, and never will" - at least in the sense of the final narrative. It's probable that he became obsessed with trying to reduce the whale into human terms after the events of the story, but the Ishmael we're being told the tale by has reached the limits of his research and found them useless after all.

Moreover I don't think it's Moby Dick that older-narrator-Ishmael cares so much about anymore. Moby Dick himself barely appears at all, and the pursuit of him is Ahab's goal and not the Pequod's crew's until close to the end. The fact that Ishmael is reflecting on (and possibly making up stuff about) the crew and Ahab suggests that, as his partial encyclopedia on whales is his unfinished and unfinishable attempt to understand the whale on a physical and spiritual level, his story of the ill-fated voyage is his unfinished and unfinishable attempt to understand man in the same way. Or if not man then definitely Ahab, because just about everything Ishmael says about the inability to get into the whale's head or soul and understand it in spite of everything one can see on the surface applies just as much to the captain.

What Moby Dick is to Ahab and what Ahab wants seem so simple, but in scenes like Ahab's final conversation with Starbuck there's always hints of more to it:

Chapter 132, 'The Symphony' posted:

But Ahab�s glance was averted; like a blighted fruit-tree he shook, and cast his last, cindered apple to the soil.

�What is it, what nameless, inscrutable, unearthly thing is it; what cozening, hidden lord and master, and cruel, remorseless emperor commands me; that against all natural lovings and longings, I so keep pushing, and crowding, and jamming myself on all the time; recklessly making me ready to do what in my own proper, natural heart, I durst not so much as dare? Is Ahab, Ahab? Is it I, God, or who, that lifts this arm? But if the great sun move not of himself; but is as an errand-boy in heaven; nor one single star can revolve, but by some invisible power; how then can this one small heart beat; this one small brain think thoughts; unless God does that beating, does that thinking, does that living, and not I. By heaven, man, we are turned round and round in this world, like yonder windlass, and Fate is the handspike. And all the time, lo! that smiling sky, and this unsounded sea! Look! see yon albicore! who put it into him to chase and fang that flying-fish? Where do murderers go, man? Who�s to doom, when the judge himself is dragged to the bar? But it is a mild, mild wind, and a mild-looking sky; and the air smells now, as if it blew from a far-away meadow; they have been making hay somewhere under the slopes of the Andes, Starbuck, and the mowers are sleeping among the new-mown hay. Sleeping? Ay, toil we how we may, we all sleep at last on the field. Sleep? Ay, and rust amid greenness; as last year�s scythes flung down, and left in the half-cut swaths�Starbuck!'

But blanched to a corpse�s hue with despair, the mate had stolen away.

Ahab crossed the deck to gaze over on the other side; but started at two reflected, fixed eyes in the water there. Fedallah was motionlessly leaning over the same rail.

Against all reason, against all logic, and even absent (for a moment) his hate, Ahab will hunt the whale, and even he isn't sure why. It's fate, it's the machinations of the universe, it's the inexplicable will of an uncaring God that Ahab and Moby Dick fight to the death even though neither one really seems to want to (the first two days of the chase, Moby Dick just smashes up the boats and swims on his way). They have to. How can Ishmael know Ahab when even Ahab doesn't know Ahab? How can man make sense of nature when nature makes no sense to man, and when he's set against nature for reasons that contradict each other? The book gives us simple answers all the time (it's for money, it's for vengeance, Moby Dick is an rear end in a top hat) and complicates them (it's an exploitative industry that murders men and whales for the benefit of people ashore, Ahab may not hate so much as he wants to hate and be hated because then his quest has meaning, Moby Dick won't put up with poo poo that younger sperm whales will and attacks to defend himself but is content to be left alone if not pursued).

# ? Jan 18, 2016 19:22

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

Ras Het posted:

Isn't Atwood some sub New Yorker level housewife trash

uhh hm

# ? Jan 18, 2016 19:24

Earwicker: Jan 6, 2003

Ras Het posted:

Isn't Atwood some sub New Yorker level housewife trash

wtf

# ? Jan 18, 2016 20:36

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

I guess I was confused

# ? Jan 18, 2016 20:39

Cloks: Feb 1, 2013; by Azathoth

You're thinking of John Updike

# ? Jan 18, 2016 21:30

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ras Het posted:

I guess I was confused

a bit

# ? Jan 18, 2016 21:42

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

I thought that the Handmaid's Tale was bad. The only interesting part were Offred's efforts to sustain herself mentally ("In the desert there is no sign that says Thou shalt not eat stones")

# ? Jan 18, 2016 21:45

mallamp: Nov 25, 2009

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I thought that the Handmaid's Tale was bad.

You must be WHITE MALE without A VAGINA who just MALEGAZED it through and didn't get it. You probably vote for Donald Trump too and your grandfather is secretly Hitler.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 22:24

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

mallamp posted:

You must be WHITE MALE without A VAGINA who just MALEGAZED it through and didn't get it. You probably vote for Donald Trump too and your grandfather is secretly Hitler.

Thank you for pre-emptive shouting down of radical feminists not reading this thread.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 22:35

Jrbg: May 20, 2014

mallamp posted:

You must be WHITE MALE without A VAGINA who just MALEGAZED it through and didn't get it. You probably vote for Donald Trump too and your grandfather is secretly Hitler.

That's a funny one, hombre

# ? Jan 18, 2016 22:37

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# ? May 31, 2024 08:48

mallamp: Nov 25, 2009

It does break my heart that this internet discussion forum Something Awful is so patriarchal. That registration fee for staters. Should be 7,5-8$ for women.
We are all radical feminists in our hearts bro.

# ? Jan 18, 2016 22:42

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

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