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I mean, earlier I was going to ask, why would you make a self-aware battledroid? If you wanted to make a bunch of machines do bad things for you, wouldn't it be better if your killer machines just killed without thinking? But then I remembered that the clone plant rep tells Obi that soldiers who can think (i.e. the clones) are better at fighting than droids, answering my question and differentiating the two along those lines. Maybe I hallucinated that exchange, but if I didnt it strongly suggests that the battle droids lack awareness.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:15
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Seaniqua posted:Not to derail this discussion, but I have a Star Wars question. The official story is exactly what Obi-Wan hears: the Jedi had the foresight to commission this army just in time to save the Republic! Praise the Jedi! They're such great heroes! Then the war goes to poo poo, a bunch of people die, and suddenly the Jedi don't seem so sympathetic to your average citizen anymore.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:16
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Empress Theonora posted:Tezzor's posts are so bad I think every time I read one I like the prequels a little more. same
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Jan 19, 2016 23:16
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bruvs be4 luvs
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Empress Theonora posted:Tezzor's posts are so bad I think every time I read one I like the prequels a little more. At least Tezzor is posting about Star Wars. We all complain whenever somebody comes in and says "lol prequels suck" and challenge them to come up with some evidence. This guy is presenting actual arguments, and while they may be wrong and dumb, at least he's making a good faith effort to engage. General Dog fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 23:18
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Ersatz posted:The visual links support a "droids are people" read. But they can just as easily be read as showing that the Jedi and the Republic are bad, because they're exploiting the clones as if they were nothing more than the mindless killer robots that they've been made to fight. Empress Theonora posted:Tezzor's posts are so bad I think every time I read one I like the prequels a little more. Tezzor should read War and Peace, too.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:18
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Ersatz posted:You keep saying that the battle droids are people, but why do you assume that those droids, in particular, are self-aware? In the bible Jesus says he does not bring peace, but a sword. Um, I have never seen Jesus holding a sword, and never in the bible does it mention the sword that he supposedly has. Where's the sword??
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Jan 19, 2016 23:18
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Lord Hydronium posted:There's a scene where Yoda, Palpatine, and a bunch of senators are watching a report from Obi-Wan, and afterwards one of them says "We need that clone army," with the implication being that Yoda told them about it offscreen. As for why it was there in the first place, the Kaminoans' story is that the Jedi ordered it. Zoran posted:The official story is exactly what Obi-Wan hears: the Jedi had the foresight to commission this army just in time to save the Republic! Praise the Jedi! They're such great heroes! Ah, this makes more sense now. There's a lot of misdirection going on so it was tricky for me to figure out what nefarious activies were Palpatine's machinations and which of them weren't. As far as the senate is concerned, the Jedi saved the day by having the foresight to order an army. I think if I were a senator I'd still be pissed... if it turned out the USA needed to build a death star ASAP and it turned out that NASA secretly already built one, I would be thankful for the death star and also angry at NASA for building a secret death star. But anyway, this explanation makes enough sense. Thanks folks, sorry I don't have any screenshots with grids on them.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:21
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Ersatz posted:But then I remembered that the clone plant rep tells Obi that soldiers who can think (i.e. the clones) are better at fighting than droids, answering my question and differentiating the two along those lines. Maybe I hallucinated that exchange, but if I didnt it strongly suggests that the battle droids lack awareness.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:21
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Ersatz posted:I mean, earlier I was going to ask, why would you make a self-aware battledroid? If you wanted to make a bunch of machines do bad things for you, wouldn't it be better if your killer machines just killed without thinking? or at the very least that the kaminoans and/or most people think they droids lack awareness i dunno if you're into sports, but there's a really awful bias against black quarterbacks because they're supposedly not "natural leaders" like white ones--in fact a black QB didn't win a superbowl until 1988 also we have a horrid history with minorities in our real life military, out of idiotic belief about their ability think about this as you remember that a film about the tuskegee airmen was a george lucas passion project and he donated quite a lot of money to the MLK memorial (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-10-21-lucas-memorial-donation_x.htm)
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Jan 19, 2016 23:21
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quote:Have you ever seen something that's simultaneously kind of funny and kind of sad? the dreams in which i'm dying
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Jan 19, 2016 23:23
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Tezzor posted:
So the Droids are akin to the naively patriotic Russians in W&P Battle of Schöngrabern? I dunno how this helps your point??
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Jan 19, 2016 23:23
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In the same movie series where a bartender says "we don't serve their kind" to droids, a sales rep peddling homegrown soldiers insinuates that the competing product (droids) lacks self-awareness. Yeesh, it's not even subtext.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:23
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So was the Sypho Dias who ordered the clone army made just Sidious/Palpatine with Groucho Marx glasses on?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:24
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Ravenfood posted:Yes, this is exactly it. Droids are people and therefore the Jedi are fuckers. This is a major theme running throughout the PT: the Jedi are consistently shown to be pretty similar to their enemies.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:24
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Frackie Robinson posted:So was the Sypho Dias who ordered the clone army made just Sidious/Palpatine with Groucho Marx glasses on? I thought Count Dooku did that?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:25
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Frackie Robinson posted:So was the Sypho Dias who ordered the clone army made just Sidious/Palpatine with Groucho Marx glasses on? he was until sypho dias was made into a real character i don't know if he is mention in clone wars, so hopefully that is part of the eu that got wiped out
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Jan 19, 2016 23:25
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SHISHKABOB posted:In the bible Jesus says he does not bring peace, but a sword.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:25
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PBS Newshour posted:he was until sypho dias was made into a real character he is in clone wars
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Jan 19, 2016 23:26
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Frackie Robinson posted:So was the Sypho Dias who ordered the clone army made just Sidious/Palpatine with Groucho Marx glasses on? I like to imagine that this order was made over the phone, so the glasses were not necessary, but he wore them anyway.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:26
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Sypho Dias used to been awesome because its so obviously a joke name by Sidious and you can tell he is laughing at everyone but then they had to make Sypho into a real person.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:26
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Waffles Inc. posted:he is in clone wars gently caress
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Jan 19, 2016 23:26
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Frackie Robinson posted:At least Tezzor is posting about Star Wars. We all complain whenever somebody comes in and says "lol prequels suck" and challenge them to come up with some evidence. This guy is presenting actual arguments, and while they may be wrong and dumb, at least he's making a good faith effort to engage. People try to talk about star wars plenty. If they aren't about the PT or in agreement they're usually ignored, though. As it turns out, the letters CD doesn't change the fact that people dont want to debate over subjective art, they just want a reading they can hold onto and feel superior about having while shouting at other readings. It just makes some people cargo-cult prestigious intellectuals There's one thing ae can all agree on though: clones are people, they fight for your freedom willingly. If the confederacy needs labor to load their space docks, they shall be loaded by freemechs. For credits. Force Bless
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Jan 19, 2016 23:29
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Frackie Robinson posted:There's plenty to attack in the prequels, but I don't think you're taking a particularly strong angle here. I don't think the posters saying that droids are people in the Star Wars universe mean that we're to shed a tear over their demise, they're just saying that our protagonists' indifference to the droids reflects poorly on their character, and that it isn't altogether an accident. I don't think that's a massive leap. Our protagonists are correct to be indifferent to killing droids, because the movies do not ever at any point indicate that the droids are worth caring about at all, and it does not reflect poorly on their character because nobody ever even brings up the question of if its morally questionable to kill battledroids, including from other droid characters and people who are generally nice to droids. As such it is a question that you might personally consider a potentially interesting story hook, but not one that has any relevance to the story and plot of the film as it really exists, where this question is, again, asked by nobody and to be found nowhere in the plot, tone or script at all
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Jan 19, 2016 23:30
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Ersatz posted:Sorry if I was unclear, but what I mean is that the imagery can be read in a different way, as suggesting that the Jedi are fuckers because they treat people (the clones) as if they were not-people (the battledroids). The Jedi are bad, whether or not the battle droids are people. Obi-Wan befriends a clone commander, though?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:31
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homullus posted:Yes, definitely, no sign that there is any subtext there about the often pointless horrors of war being inflicted on people. Yeah the best interpretation of that exchange is not that George Lucas is a ludicrously out of touch manbaby surrounded by people who tell him whatever he wants to hear to the point that he's comparing his forthcoming awesome space battle between jive talking cartoon rabbits and silly incompetent robots to "War and Peace," it's actually that he's playing 11th dimensional chess with the subtext here of the tragedy of war between jive talking cartoon rabbits and silly incompetent robots. Ask Your Doctor If Haloperidol Is Right For You Tezzor fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 23:35
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Tezzor posted:Our protagonists are correct to be indifferent to killing droids, because the movies do not ever at any point indicate that the droids are worth caring about at all, and it does not reflect poorly on their character because nobody ever even brings up the question of if its morally questionable to kill battledroids, including from other droid characters and people who are generally nice to droids. As such it is a question that you might personally consider a potentially interesting story hook, but not one that has any relevance to the story and plot of the film as it really exists, where this question is, again, asked by nobody and to be found nowhere in the plot, tone or script at all
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Jan 19, 2016 23:35
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Ravenfood posted:Just in the composition, which is what kicked this argument off in the first place. And seeing what people ignore can be just as important as what they choose to focus on: does a hypothetical movie that shows soldiers casually murdering civilians without any comment or care ignore the problem, or is drawing attention to the fact that the problem is so ingrained that it can pass by without comment? Mother of gently caress you people are insane
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Jan 19, 2016 23:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There are heroes on both sides. Obi-Wan defeats General Grievous the same way Luke defeats Darth Vader--by realizing that, deep down, behind all that hard metal plating, underneath the cold robotic exterior, there indeed lies a human heart:  The joke being that instead of using this knowledge to appeal to Grievous's better instincts, like Luke does with Vader, Obi-Wan completely misses the point and literally just shoots Grievous in the loving heart until he dies. LOL.   Then, like Luke, he throws his weapon away in disgust--the problem being that, unlike Luke, he already loving used the thing to kill somebody, so it's a comically useless gesture.   Then, to connect the two scenarios further, Lucas has both of the heroes escape in ships belonging to their late cyborg adversary. Luke spends one last loving moment with his father before confidently taking his father's place at the controls of the Imperial shuttle, having finally made peace with his father's legacy. Obi-Wan runs past Grievous's hideously mangled corpse without even a glance back at it and then sheepishly jacks his ride, the cosmic punishment for his false moral certitude being to take Grievous's place as a "traitorous" lightsaber-wielding general marked for death by the authoritarian central government.   It's loving hilarious. This is why George Lucas is the master of thematic rhyming. He actually does something with it.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:40
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Neurolimal posted:Obi-Wan befriends a clone commander, though? Its his R2-D2. Obi-Wan is just robot racist, but he isn't clone racist 
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Jan 19, 2016 23:43
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no mercy for slavemasters
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Jan 19, 2016 23:43
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Ersatz posted:I'm not really clear on what this post is supposed to mean. "When I taught the film, I had endless discussions with my students over this scene. Many insisted on explaining it: He is walking on a hidden sandbar, the water is only half an inch deep, there is a submerged pier, etc. "Not valid!'' I thundered. "The movie presents us with an image, and while you may discuss the meaning of the image it is not permitted to devise explanations for it. Since Ashby does not show a pier, there is no pier--a movie is exactly what it shows us, and nothing more,'' etc." Roger Ebert on "Being There"
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Jan 19, 2016 23:43
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Cnut the Great posted:Obi-Wan defeats General Grievous the same way Luke defeats Darth Vader--by realizing that, deep down, behind all that hard metal plating, underneath the cold robotic exterior, there indeed lies a human heart: How can i be vomiting from every hole simultaneously. Someone call a doctor
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Jan 19, 2016 23:43
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PBS Newshour posted:Sypho Dias used to been awesome because its so obviously a joke name by Sidious and you can tell he is laughing at everyone but then they had to make Sypho into a real person. In the earlier drafts of the script that was true, but in the actual movie Obi-Wan talks about Sifo Diyas as if he's a real Jedi Master who died a long time ago. Not even Palpatine would be able to trick the Jedi into thinking he was also one of their number who looked suspiciously like the Chancellor, so we can take it as Sifo being a real guy.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:44
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Neurolimal posted:Obi-Wan befriends a clone commander, though?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:46
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Beeez posted:In the earlier drafts of the script that was true, but in the actual movie Obi-Wan talks about Sifo Diyas as if he's a real Jedi Master who died a long time ago. Not even Palpatine would be able to trick the Jedi into thinking he was also one of their number who looked suspiciously like the Chancellor, so we can take it as Sifo being a real guy. "I'm just saying, has anyone ever actually seen Master Diyas and Senator Palpatine in the same room?" This is the same movie where a child correctly intuits what Obi-Wan could not.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:47
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Cnut the Great posted:Obi-Wan defeats General Grievous the same way Luke defeats Darth Vader--by realizing that, deep down, behind all that hard metal plating, underneath the cold robotic exterior, there indeed lies a human heart: I knew that Grievous was meant to foreshadow Vader's cyborg future, but I noticed this before, which kind of rules??
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Jan 19, 2016 23:47
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Sypho Dias is basically the same problem as Darth Plageuis: this extremely convenient story that an evil liar tells to manipulate dumb-rear end Anakin and then can't follow through on is actually the 100% god's honest truth and here's the literary equivalent of shovelware about it
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Jan 19, 2016 23:47
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SHISHKABOB posted:"When I taught the film, I had endless discussions with my students over this scene. Many insisted on explaining it: He is walking on a hidden sandbar, the water is only half an inch deep, there is a submerged pier, etc. "Not valid!'' I thundered. "The movie presents us with an image, and while you may discuss the meaning of the image it is not permitted to devise explanations for it. Since Ashby does not show a pier, there is no pier--a movie is exactly what it shows us, and nothing more,'' etc." Roger Ebert on "Being There"
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Jan 19, 2016 23:50
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I'm glad tezzor is here cause they say everything I can't. 
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Jan 19, 2016 23:50
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Ersatz posted:OK. But the films don't show us that the battledroids are self-aware. I think if you'll watch them again you will see that they actually do.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:50
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