USPOL Jan: In the Year of Our Trump 1

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hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

On Terra Firma posted:

I would enjoy that. You should post it.

Pretty much any long post not about uber/guns/chicago is awesome.

edit: Is there any way Sanders could do what FDR did with his fireside chats if he were elected? Don't news networks have to allow the president time to address the country per year outside of the state of the union?

Presumably Sanders would continue the weekly radio addresses resumed by Reagan and continued by all presidents since.

And networks don't have to allow the president to preempt them (excepting EAS of course), and I'm sure he'd only get CSPAN if it was often.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 07:57

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 16:05

On Terra Firma: Feb 12, 2008

hobbesmaster posted:

Presumably Sanders would continue the weekly radio addresses resumed by Reagan and continued by all presidents since.

And networks don't have to allow the president to preempt them (excepting EAS of course), and I'm sure he'd only get CSPAN if it was often.

I feel like if you have people at the white house aggressively getting as much exposure as possible there could be more done. I think it would really gently caress with congress if he just kept going on about inequality year over year with facts and statistics to back things up. One or two people on the house floor going "Actually GOP you are saying bad dumb things and here is proof" doesn't mean poo poo compared to something with the full weight of the executive behind it just constantly pushing the same messaging.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:12

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

On Terra Firma posted:

I feel like if you have people at the white house aggressively getting as much exposure as possible there could be more done. I think it would really gently caress with congress if he just kept going on about inequality year over year with facts and statistics to back things up. One or two people on the house floor going "Actually GOP you are saying bad dumb things and here is proof" doesn't mean poo poo compared to something with the full weight of the executive behind it just constantly pushing the same messaging.

Hasn't really worked for gun control.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:16

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Built 4 Cuban Linux posted:

Whether or not he can get it through congress, there's a decent chance Bernie can get half the country to support his crazy ideas. If he added reparations to the list, there wouldn't even be a chance that he'd make it to the white house.

Do you have anything to back up those two claims besides "common sense"?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:25

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Forgive me for leaving the Bernie containment zone to talk about reparations chat again blue squares, but the idea remains dumb, divisive and unworkable.

Who would be eligible for reparations? There was a family reunion many years ago where my grandmother was giddy to introduce a far flung black relation. Does that make me eligible under one drop laws? If I marry a black woman am I eligible? What about my half black half white kids? Can I submit a genetic test that shows I have black ancestry? Is Rachel Dolezal eligible?

Who will pay for it? Everyone? The Hispanics and Asians might get mad. Whites only? Who counts as white? Do we institute the brown bag test? What about a tax on the wealthy? Would wealthy black people be excused?

How will you pay it out? A cash payment is dumb for reasons discussed. A trust fund would have to have so many restrictions on access it would amount to a regular direct cash transfer, and it will attract financial predators like a sailor with his first check looking down the Mile of Cars. Targeted social programs? What would constitute a black neighborhood for investment? What percentage? You know once any black area was sufficiently rehabilitated it would be gentrified by young whites looking for cheap housing. The same would happen with schools systems. The more economically advantaged and mobile will always co-opt narrowly targeted social programs. Land? If its undeveloped federal land will they be expected to pay taxes? How will they develop it? If its developed land lol because that will start an actual civil war. Maybe a guarantee of free college for black students? This one has potential, but look at how many military veterans waste their GI Bill benefits on lovely for profit predatory colleges despite huge internal education programs desperately trying to warn them about how loving stupid for profit colleges are.

Look, I agree this nation needs to own up to its racist past/present, but what would reparations even consist of? What, mechanically, would it even look like? Actually, realtalk for a second here mid rant, what if we spent a poo poo ton of money on busing and mass transit systems to provide more mobility to black students and workers? We could actually reverse de facto segregation and force more equitable school funding if we had a system that could distribute blacks equally around a city. School district lines are *the* organizing force for self selected segregation, so that alone would probably have a massive impact on urban and suburban areas. It would certainly be a better start than stupid trust funds.

So what about that? Direct reparations are still dumb but what if we bought a poo poo ton of buses and started mandatory busing? You could then target entire predominantly black cities for extra social funding with less worry the white population will just slide in once things get nice.

Uh, in closing, UHC good, vote Bernie 2016, stop complaining that he isn't socialist *enough* and realize UHC is better than anything Hillary is offering.

Fake edit: Tulsa, OK is so racially segregated along school district lines that when I was doing a data project and assigning 'region' dummies to schools I picked racial make-up as the factor for where to determine one region ended and another began. Midway through I could guess exactly where a school was located on the city map by looking at just its racial make up with better than 75% accuracy. Housing prices will literally increase $50k for identical homes within one street if one is in a majority white school. gently caress everything about this stupid state.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:25

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Not a Step posted:

Forgive me for leaving the Bernie containment zone to talk about reparations chat again blue squares, but the idea remains dumb, divisive and unworkable.

Who would be eligible for reparations? There was a family reunion many years ago where my grandmother was giddy to introduce a far flung black relation. Does that make me eligible under one drop laws? If I marry a black woman am I eligible? What about my half black half white kids? Can I submit a genetic test that shows I have black ancestry? Is Rachel Dolezal eligible?

Who will pay for it? Everyone? The Hispanics and Asians might get mad. Whites only? Who counts as white? Do we institute the brown bag test? What about a tax on the wealthy? Would wealthy black people be excused?

How will you pay it out? A cash payment is dumb for reasons discussed. A trust fund would have to have so many restrictions on access it would amount to a regular direct cash transfer, and it will attract financial predators like a sailor with his first check looking down the Mile of Cars. Targeted social programs? What would constitute a black neighborhood for investment? What percentage? You know once any black area was sufficiently rehabilitated it would be gentrified by young whites looking for cheap housing. The same would happen with schools systems. The more economically advantaged and mobile will always co-opt narrowly targeted social programs. Land? If its undeveloped federal land will they be expected to pay taxes? How will they develop it? If its developed land lol because that will start an actual civil war. Maybe a guarantee of free college for black students? This one has potential, but look at how many military veterans waste their GI Bill benefits on lovely for profit predatory colleges despite huge internal education programs desperately trying to warn them about how loving stupid for profit colleges are.

Look, I agree this nation needs to own up to its racist past/present, but what would reparations even consist of? What, mechanically, would it even look like? Actually, realtalk for a second here mid rant, what if we spent a poo poo ton of money on busing and mass transit systems to provide more mobility to black students and workers? We could actually reverse de facto segregation and force more equitable school funding if we had a system that could distribute blacks equally around a city. School district lines are *the* organizing force for self selected segregation, so that alone would probably have a massive impact on urban and suburban areas. It would certainly be a better start than stupid trust funds.

So what about that? Direct reparations are still dumb but what if we bought a poo poo ton of buses and started mandatory busing? You could then target entire predominantly black cities for extra social funding with less worry the white population will just slide in once things get nice.

Uh, in closing, UHC good, vote Bernie 2016, stop complaining that he isn't socialist *enough* and realize UHC is better than anything Hillary is offering.

Fake edit: Tulsa, OK is so racially segregated along school district lines that when I was doing a data project and assigning 'region' dummies to schools I picked racial make-up as the factor for where to determine one region ended and another began. Midway through I could guess exactly where a school was located on the city map by looking at just its racial make up with better than 75% accuracy. Housing prices will literally increase $50k for identical homes within one street if one is in a majority white school. gently caress everything about this stupid state.

Just because it would be hard to own up to our past crimes doesn't mean we should. The fact that the magnitude of our crime is so vast that we're having trouble telling the victims shouldn't be a justification for doing nothing. Those are all valid points, and I imagine a tiny fraction of the parts of our government budget spent enriching rich white men could be spent studying said your questions in an a rigorous, culturally inclusive and scientific way.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:32

Boon: Jun 21, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

Long posts are always welcome dude

On Terra Firma posted:

I would enjoy that. You should post it.

Pretty much any long post not about uber/guns/chicago is awesome.

edit: Is there any way Sanders could do what FDR did with his fireside chats if he were elected? Don't news networks have to allow the president time to address the country per year outside of the state of the union?

Honestly, I think I started out strong on this and then got tired (and drunk - been sipping bourbon for a few hours now in the spirit of this thread) and it started to meander as my thoughts became scattered and I think I lost direction somewhere. I struggled through the last third of it, I'm not even sure I feel good about it, but it is just a rant so. Anyway, I'd appreciate any critiques of my understanding of this.

quote:

I�ve recently had discussions about the economic struggles that many in the Millennial generation face when it comes to school debt, the underlying skyrocketing cost of education, prospects in the labor market and what that means for their futures. Something I�ve noticed is a fundamental lack of understanding in otherwise politically disinterested older generation members as to how it could be so completely different from their own experience. However, I read an article about tax cuts today which touched a nerve and led me to effort-post my thoughts all over the place.

To begin, it has become commonly understood that real wages and salaries in the US labor market have been stagnating since the 1970�s and inequality has grown. The causes and reasons for its continued stagnation are the subject of another debate, but what�s important is that average hourly wages, adjusted for inflation, are the same now as they were in 1970 for production and non-supervisory employees [1]. In total, the median worker saw a 9.2% increase in their wages between 1973 to 2014 and since 2009, the real wages of occupational employees have declined by as much as 5.7% with decreases across all quintiles [2]. I say this is the matter of another discussion, because this is simply context for the increasing requirement of a college degree and the rising costs of education.

A college education has long been seen as a pathway to higher wage jobs, stronger employment, and upward mobility. In every generation that has been statistically true, interestingly, this is truer for the Millennial generation than any other. Degree holders are more likely to be employed full-time, less likely to be unemployed and hold a wider pay-gap over their less educated peers than in previous generations. However, overall, Millennials as a generation, are doing worse than their predecessors in Gen-X, the Boomers, or the Silent Generation were in this same span. This is an indication of both the necessity for obtaining a college degree and the disadvantage that Millennials face compared to their predecessors [3]. From a hiring perspective, college degrees have increasingly become a way to weed out potential candidates. In some fields which at one time were held as positions of upward mobility for those without college degrees, as much as 60% of new job postings require a degree for employment [4]. The end result is that, increasingly, college degrees have become a necessity for a Millennial to succeed amongst his/her peers and those who do not attain one are increasingly left behind in our economy. But why aren�t even college-educated Millennials as well off as the generations before them? Part of this has to do with the previously discussed wage stagnation, but the costs of education has changed as well.

A driving reason for this stunning generation wide problem is that the cost of tuition at both public and private universities has outpaced the rate of inflation in every year since 1981 [5]. Since 2003, the price of a college tuition has grown by nearly 80% and outpaced the Consumer Price Index (a measure of inflation of selected household goods/services) three times over [6]. To put this into perspective, the average cost of in-state public school tuition as recent as 1995 was approximately $2,500. That same cost today is almost four-fold more expensive at $9,803. While not quite as sharp, out-of-state and private tuitions have each approximately tripled in cost to $38,762 and $24,015 respectively [7]. What�s perhaps most remarkable about those figures is that it has occurred in just the last 20 years, meaning that this problem is almost uniquely a Millennial one (though our successors may very well have it worse than we). To top it off, the college loans that students are inevitably forced to take out in order to cover these costs, with rare exception, are not dischargeable in bankruptcy meaning that they are saddled with this debt for life or until repaid. So why has the cost of college so dramatically increased over these past two decades?

When discussing the bottom-line of a university�s books it�s hard to pin down any one item as driving increasing costs, especially given the different type of institutions and how they take in revenue and focus spending. The costs of athletic programs (which are notoriously unprofitable in the NCAA) and administrators is oft blamed for the rapidly increasing costs to students and their families. However, big budget programs are in the minority among America�s universities and do not account for the across the board rises in costs. Staffing and professor hiring has largely remained consistent with student increases, and their salaries have remained stable and in many cases, the increased costs of hiring has been offset by part-time positions. Overall, the cost of providing an education has remained relatively stable [8]. However, since the 1980�s federal, state, local spending on higher education has slowly declined, and then sharply after the 2008 recession (for obvious reasons). All of which has had the effect of shifting costs to students and families through higher tuition as universities and colleges seek to replace their lost subsidies and maintain their budgets (or in the case of research institutions, pay for their increased research spending) [9].

The reasons for the decline in government spending are many and in some cases understandable, especially in the wake of the recession. However, eight years after the recession government spending remains below pre-recession levels in 47 states to the tune of 20%, even as tax revenues slowly recover [10]. In spite of this shortfall, many states like Kansas, Louisiana, and even here in Wisconsin have pursued additional tax cuts which further hamstring the state�s ability to support higher education, or even education in general � thereby passing the buck to Millennials and seriously jeopardizing future prosperity. The pursuit of tax cuts in Kansas has become so extreme that it�s threatened a state constitutional crisis over the issue of education funding [11]. Now Oklahoma, too, has jumped on that bandwagon. Oklahoma has slowly reduced top tax brackets since 2007. However, in 2014 they added a provision that would further reduce the top bracket based on whether or not the estimate of FY 2016 revenue (from December 2014) would exceed the estimated revenue of FY 2014 (from February 2013). Actual revenues in 2014 came up short, and with crashing oil prices 2015 and 2016 are likely to come up even shorter, before the tax-cut kicks in [12]. Instead of acting to remove the automatic tax-cut, the Oklahoma legislature is proposing to further cut education and other spending [13].

There are no easy answers to solving the growing problem of rising tuition and the inequality that it drives in our society, however, the one thing we cannot continue to abide is allowing our elected officials to marginalize our future prospects for the sake of political expediency. We should expect governance through enlightened self-interest, and that means attempting to understand the issues ourselves.

1. http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/26/408555544/despite-economic-climb-american-paychecks-remain-stuck
2. http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2015/09/04/Most-Americans-Wages-Aren-t-Just-Stagnating-They-re-Falling
3. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-to-college/
4. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/09/09/report-employers-want-more-college-graduates-for-lower-level-jobs
5. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-13/college-tuition-in-the-u-s-again-rises-faster-than-inflation
6. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/23/charts-just-how-fast-has-college-tuition-grown
7. http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...al-universities
8. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/16/why-college-costs-are-so-high-and-rising.html
9. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/08/28/the-tuition-is-too-drat-high-part-iii-the-three-reasons-tuition-is-rising/
10. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/05/13/the-economys-bouncing-back-higher-education-funding-isnt/
11. http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/blog/morning_call/2015/12/kansas-moves-nearer-a-constitutional-crisis.html
12. http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2015/01/05/oklahoma-pulls-trigger-unaffordable-tax-cut/
13. http://www.news9.com/story/31005392/oklahoma-speaker-sees-no-way-to-avoid-education-cuts

Boon fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:33

Rand alPaul: Feb 3, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

computer parts posted:

This is an example of the strange idea that the President can pass whatever legislation he likes as long as he has sufficient will power to pass it.

Like even if it's true that Bernie isn't taking a million checks from Big Pharma, what's stopping people in Congress from receiving those checks instead?

There's a huge difference between your strawman and actively gutting portions of the bill you campaigned on because you're getting a ton of money and playing twelve-dimensional-chess and are a brilliant poker player and MASSING POLITICAL CAPITAL and all the stupid poo poo people rationalized Obama's actions for.

blackguy32 posted:

It really wasn't just health insurance reform as it affected things done by hospitals as well. Also you are ignoring that it was Max Baucus who was the holdout over the public option, it was Joe Lieberman, and he wasn't going to run for reelection anyways.

As for Ta-Nehisi Coates, his argument is spot on. This is why Sanders doesn't get it.

There was a rotating cast of Democratic party villains in the Senate who everyone took turns pointing the finger at. That we're arguing about which one it is shows how effective it was. Coates is just trolling people for page clicks, it's kind of sad how bad his argument is.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:49

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Not a Step posted:

Uh, in closing, UHC good

One of the biggest reasons social services are so hard to fund and argue for (such as UHC) is because people are racist and don't like the idea of the wrong people getting benefits. You can't address the issues of the United States without addressing racism in some way which is why a shitload of the rhetoric coming from BLM isn't TEAR DOWN THE BIG BANKS but "Maybe make districts not insane prisons to keep black people as isolated as possible" and "help make local government better represent it's population".

Arguing from the standpoint of "Who cares about race we have big business to take on!" is a losing proposition for the Democrats because the strength of the Democratic party is it has down well to bring minorities and other oppressed groups into it's tent. Similarly the Democrats have a lot of outspoken military people trying to reign in the MIC by pushing funding towards research and other non-idiot F35 poo poo that get pissed when people ignore foreign policy with the idea the world will just leave us alone if we don't bother it.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:50

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Boon posted:

Honestly, I think I started out strong on this and then got tired (and drunk - been sipping bourbon for a few hours now in the spirit of this thread) and it started to meander as my thoughts became scattered and I think I lost direction somewhere. I struggled through the last third of it, I'm not even sure I feel good about it, but it is just a rant so. Anyway, I'd appreciate any critiques of my understanding of this.

I didnt see you make mention of this, but theres a study that suggests tax cuts in Oklahoma are costing the state $1 billion annually and the 2016 budget shortfall will be close to $1 billion dollars. The latest round of tax cuts went almost entirely to the wealthy. This state loving sucks and I can't wait to get out of it, and I weep for the children trapped here.

http://okpolicy.org/the-cost-of-tax-cuts-in-oklahoma
http://okpolicy.org/oklahomas-oncoming-budget-shortfall-worse-great-recession-capitol-updates
http://okpolicy.org/what-you-can-do-with-your-tax-cut

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:53

Boon: Jun 21, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Also, this was posted in the GOP zoo thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/o...collection&_r=0

David Brooks posted:

Members of the Republican governing class are like cowering freshmen at halftime of a high school football game. Some are part of the Surrender Caucus, sitting sullenly on their stools resigned to the likelihood that their team is going to get crushed. Some are thinking of jumping ship to the Trump campaign with an alacrity that would make rats admire and applaud. Rarely has a party so passively accepted its own self-destruction. Sure, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are now riding high in some meaningless head-to-head polls against Hillary Clinton, but the odds are the nomination of either would lead to a party-decimating general election.

The Tea Party, Ted Cruz�s natural vehicle, has 17 percent popular support, according to Gallup. The idea that most women, independents or mainstream order-craving suburbanites would back a guy who declares his admiration for Vladimir Putin is a mirage. The idea that the G.O.P. can march into the 21st century intentionally alienating every person of color is borderline insane. Worse is the prospect that one of them might somehow win. Very few presidents are so terrible that they genuinely endanger their own nation, but Trump and Cruz would go there and beyond. Trump is a solipsistic branding genius whose �policies� have no contact with Planet Earth and who would be incapable of organizing a coalition, domestic or foreign. Cruz would be as universally off-putting as he has been in all his workplaces. He�s always been good at tearing things down but incompetent when it comes to putting things together.

So maybe it�s time for governing Republicans to actually do something. Yes, I�m talking to you state legislators, or local committeepersons, or members of Congress and all your networks of donors and supporters. If MoveOn can organize, if the Tea Party can organize, if Justin Bieber can build a gigantic social media movement, why are you incapable of any collective action at all? What�s needed is a grass-roots movement that stands for governing conservatism, built both online and through rallies, and gets behind a single candidate sometime in mid- to late February. In politics, if A (Trump) and B (Cruz) savage each other then the benefits often go to Candidate C. But there has to be a C, not a C, D, E, F and G.

This new movement must come to grips with two realities. First, the electorate has changed. Less-educated voters are in the middle of a tidal wave of trauma. Labor force participation is dropping, wages are sliding, suicide rates are rising, heroin addiction is rising, faith in American institutions is dissolving. Second, the Republican Party is not as antigovernment as its elites think it is. Its members no longer fit into the same old ideological categories. Trump grabbed his lead with an ideological grab bag of gestures, some of them quite on the left. He is more Huey Long than Calvin Coolidge.

Given the current strains on middle- and working-class families, many Republican voters want a government that will help the little guy; they just don�t want one that is incompetent, corrupt or infused with liberal social values. In addition, younger voters and college-educated voters are more moderate than party leaders. According to one of the smartest conservative analysts, Henry Olsen, somewhere around 35 to 40 percent of the G.O.P. electorate is only �somewhat conservative.�

Years ago, reform conservatives were proposing a Sam�s Club Republicanism, which would actually provide concrete policy ideas to help the working class, like wage subsidies, a higher earned-Income tax credit, increased child tax credits, subsidies for people who wanted to move in search of work and exemption of the first $20,000 in earnings from the Medicaid payroll tax. This would be a conservatism that emphasized social mobility at the bottom, not cutting taxes at the top. Maybe it�s time a center-right movement actually offered that agenda.

And maybe it�s time some Republicans took a stand on what is emerging as the central dispute of our time � not between left and right but between open and closed. As the political scientist Matthew MacWilliams has found, the key trait that identifies Trump followers is authoritarianism. His central image is a wall. With their emphasis on anger and shutting people out, Trump and Cruz are more like European conservatives than American ones. Governing conservatism has to offer people a secure financial base and a steady hand up so they can welcome global capitalism with hope and a sense of opportunity. That�s the true American tradition, emphasizing future dynamism not tribal walls. There�s a silent majority of hopeful, practical, programmatic Republicans. You know who you are.

Please don�t go quietly and pathetically into the night.

I wonder who gave them the idea that the government was incompetent or corrupt. Also, I assume liberal social values means equality for non-white, straight, men.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:54

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

All these tough questions about how to pull off reparations are difficult enough to require a study to even to contemplate how they might be answered.

If I'm not mistaken, Ta-Nehisi Coates isn't asking for reparations to be made as-is-where-is, but for such a study to just be done to begin with.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:58

Bastard Tetris: Apr 27, 2005; L-Shaped; Nap Ghost

Boon posted:

Also, this was posted in the GOP zoo thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/o...collection&_r=0

I wonder who gave them the idea that the government was incompetent or corrupt. Also, I assume liberal social values means equality for non-white, straight, men.

Article comments are usually terrible but I appreciated 95% of them basically saying "Conservatives spent 50 years making this monster, deal with it".

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:58

Rand alPaul: Feb 3, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

Not a Step posted:

I didnt see you make mention of this, but theres a study that suggests tax cuts in Oklahoma are costing the state $1 billion annually and the 2016 budget shortfall will be close to $1 billion dollars. The latest round of tax cuts went almost entirely to the wealthy. This state loving sucks and I can't wait to get out of it, and I weep for the children trapped here.

http://okpolicy.org/the-cost-of-tax-cuts-in-oklahoma
http://okpolicy.org/oklahomas-oncoming-budget-shortfall-worse-great-recession-capitol-updates
http://okpolicy.org/what-you-can-do-with-your-tax-cut

To compound this all, Kansas is literally next door and lots of their hardships made local news; Oklahoma decided it wanted a piece of that sweet failed state and slashed its taxes accordingly.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 08:59

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Rand alPaul posted:

There's a huge difference between your strawman and actively gutting portions of the bill you campaigned on because you're getting a ton of money and playing twelve-dimensional-chess and are a brilliant poker player and MASSING POLITICAL CAPITAL and all the stupid poo poo people rationalized Obama's actions for.

Saying that Obama promised something he (or anyone else) couldn't deliver on is a criticism of him and society as a whole. Similarly when people say Bernie's promises and plans are unrealistic it's not saying Bernie is a shitlord or w/e it's saying that recognition of plausibility is important. There seems to be this fundamental misunderstanding that electing new people will magically fix everything when most big change these days is done via the Supreme Court supporting or knocking things down because our system is a gridlocked mess. Honestly if you want a cause that will enable some of the amazing stuff Sanders want then you need to take on gerrymandering. You can suck all the money out of politics you want but as long as people are divided to naturally give one party an advantage that party will do better.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:02

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Venom Snake posted:

One of the biggest reasons social services are so hard to fund and argue for (such as UHC) is because people are racist and don't like the idea of the wrong people getting benefits. You can't address the issues of the United States without addressing racism in some way which is why a shitload of the rhetoric coming from BLM isn't TEAR DOWN THE BIG BANKS but "Maybe make districts not insane prisons to keep black people as isolated as possible" and "help make local government better represent it's population".

Arguing from the standpoint of "Who cares about race we have big business to take on!" is a losing proposition for the Democrats because the strength of the Democratic party is it has down well to bring minorities and other oppressed groups into it's tent. Similarly the Democrats have a lot of outspoken military people trying to reign in the MIC by pushing funding towards research and other non-idiot F35 poo poo that get pissed when people ignore foreign policy with the idea the world will just leave us alone if we don't bother it.

If HRC came out and said she was going to spend thirty billion dollars buying buses for a federal forced busing/desegregation program I would vote for her in a heartbeat. If she came out on a platform of expanding mass transit in every major American city and providing subsidies so no middle class worker had to pay a train/bus fare again I'd also vote for her. If anyone could promise federal judiciary oversight of redistricting with a straight face I'd probably also swing that way. My other hot button issue is whichever candidate offers the best benefits package for three year olds.

Also 100% agree on letting the military finally kill the programs it hates and investing that money into education and research

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:02

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Rand alPaul posted:

To compound this all, Kansas is literally next door and lots of their hardships made local news; Oklahoma decided it wanted a piece of that sweet failed state and slashed its taxes accordingly.

The Brownback containment zone has failed. The next step is for Trump to tap Brownback as VP so he can spread prosperity across the nation.

Also the imminent collapse of the Oklahoman oil industry is going to leave such a massive crater in the white middle class that they might actually find some class solidarity with poor blacks.

Well, probably not.

But hey, at least we have this great fault in the earth's crust out of it!

E: Im used to faster threads, sorry

Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:05

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Not a Step posted:

If HRC came out and said she was going to spend thirty billion dollars buying buses for a federal forced busing/desegregation program I would vote for her in a heartbeat. If she came out on a platform of expanding mass transit in every major American city and providing subsidies so no middle class worker had to pay a train/bus fare again I'd also vote for her. If anyone could promise federal judiciary oversight of redistricting with a straight face I'd probably also swing that way. My other hot button issue is whichever candidate offers the best benefits package for three year olds.

Also 100% agree on letting the military finally kill the programs it hates and investing that money into education and research

I can say the last point is definitely a thing she supports and she has expressed in her infrastructure plans that we need more mass transit to stop the forced isolation felt in many communities in America but a legit criticism of both Bernie and Hillary is that these specific things will not be addressed until they are will into office with a team that can figure out how to do it.

And hell her platform of automatic voter registration (as well as other strengthening of voters rights laws) would go a long way towards giving minority communities that aforementioned better representation that can meet their needs.

As someone who does a lot of stuff with the Hillary campaign I can tell you stuff Bernie adopts and supports also has the effect of more than likely becoming part of HRC's platforms in the general (if she wins) so it can never hurt to support these things. My biggest endorsement of Bernie is he has done a good job of shifting the overton window and energizing the base.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:11

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

Not a Step posted:

The Brownback containment zone has failed. The next step is for Trump to tap Brownback as VP so he can spread prosperity across the nation.

Also the imminent collapse of the Oklahoman oil industry is going to leave such a massive crater in the white middle class that they might actually find some class solidarity with poor blacks.

Well, probably not.

But hey, at least we have this great fault in the earth's crust out of it!

E: Im used to faster threads, sorry

Odds that this solidarity takes the form of burning black churches: 100%

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:12

Islam is the Lite Rock FM: Jul 27, 2007; by exmarx

Can we just plow over most of Oklahoma, plant weed, and export that, along with the Thunder, to Seattle?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:16

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Epic High Five posted:

Odds that this solidarity takes the form of burning black churches: 100%

Well, Tulsa does have the distinction of aerial fire bombing one of the most affluent black communities in America. We have a street down town called Reconciliation Way and I guarantee 90% of Tulsans don't know the origin of the name

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:20

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

DemeaninDemon posted:

Can we just plow over most of Oklahoma, plant weed, and export that, along with the Thunder, to Seattle?

Some of the fracking counties are basically in a nonstop state of earthquake now so it'll be tough to farm it there

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:22

Islam is the Lite Rock FM: Jul 27, 2007; by exmarx

Epic High Five posted:

Some of the fracking counties are basically in a nonstop state of earthquake now so it'll be tough to farm it there

Call it premium shake weed and sell it for 3x the price.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:23

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Rand alPaul posted:

There's a huge difference between your strawman and actively gutting portions of the bill you campaigned on because you're getting a ton of money and playing twelve-dimensional-chess and are a brilliant poker player and MASSING POLITICAL CAPITAL and all the stupid poo poo people rationalized Obama's actions for.

There was a rotating cast of Democratic party villains in the Senate who everyone took turns pointing the finger at. That we're arguing about which one it is shows how effective it was. Coates is just trolling people for page clicks, it's kind of sad how bad his argument is.

I used to think like that, but then I realized that the Democratic party had built up a lot of support from heavily Republican areas of the country. Hell, I even think one Republican in the house voted in support of the bill in order to get it passed. Then the senate was full of people that really had no need to support the bill at all considering that they were voted out first chance they got. The ACA was a god drat miracle to be passed. I think it goes beyond the simplistic "rotating villains" act.

As for Coates, do you really think he needs the page clicks, or is it simply an extension of his actual "Case for Reparations" article? He makes the case that we should heavily grapple with the legacy of racism that America is founded on. He also makes the case that black poverty is a special and different kind of poverty that demands different solutions since there are different circumstances that put us there in the first place.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 09:42

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

I am glad Bernie supporters are now clear-eyed pragmatists instead of revolutionaries. Strange how that happened.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 12:55

PerniciousKnid: Sep 13, 2006

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

I am glad Bernie supporters are now clear-eyed pragmatists instead of revolutionaries. Strange how that happened.

"Why don't we have the same insurance standard as every first world country in the world" is definitely as revolutionary as "let's rewind history".

I really have no idea what got into people's heads that they think reparations make any goddamn sense at all. How could it possibly work? Discriminating on the basis of race is beyond stupid, not in the least because race is a made-up social construct, and those facts don't go away just because you're trying to put them to use for social justice. Bernie wants to do away with institutional poverty, which would actually fix a lot of problems in the black community, and also it's completely possible to do. Get people out of poverty and they have the power to start businesses, advocate for themselves politically, strengthen their community bonds, etc. Demanding he discuss reparations as a solution is on par with demanding he discuss I Dream of Jeannie as a solution. Paper bag test for welfare? Writing checks to the immigrant son of a Nigerian banker while white kids in Appalachia starve? Taxing Mexicans-Americans to pay off African-Americans?

Even if you think reparations make sense, they'll never happen unless you first transfer more power to the black communities through programs like Bernie's.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:19

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

PerniciousKnid posted:

"Why don't we have the same insurance standard as every first world country in the world" is definitely as revolutionary as "let's rewind history".

I really have no idea what got into people's heads that they think reparations make any goddamn sense at all. How could it possibly work? Discriminating on the basis of race is beyond stupid, not in the least because race is a made-up social construct, and those facts don't go away just because you're trying to put them to use for social justice. Bernie wants to do away with institutional poverty, which would actually fix a lot of problems in the black community, and also it's completely possible to do. Get people out of poverty and they have the power to start businesses, advocate for themselves politically, strengthen their community bonds, etc. Demanding he discuss reparations as a solution is on par with demanding he discuss I Dream of Jeannie as a solution. Paper bag test for welfare? Writing checks to the immigrant son of a Nigerian banker while white kids in Appalachia starve? Taxing Mexicans-Americans to pay off African-Americans?

Even if you think reparations make sense, they'll never happen unless you first transfer more power to the black communities through programs like Bernie's.

Remember when Hillary said Universal Coverage is a great goal we need to work to, but single-payer is politically unworkable and y'all lost your goddamn minds? Pepperidge farms does.

It's almost as if the point of contention is that none of Bernie's plans are politically workable at face value and that his intrinsic value is that he is a radical candidate openly pushing for political revolution, except when it comes to things his white bread supporters might not exactly be all for -- like gun control. Kind of a big deal when the whole animus of your campaign is being a dude who is literally calling to remake our political system.

BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:24

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

PerniciousKnid posted:

"Why don't we have the same insurance standard as every first world country in the world" is definitely as revolutionary as "let's rewind history".

I really have no idea what got into people's heads that they think reparations make any goddamn sense at all. How could it possibly work? Discriminating on the basis of race is beyond stupid, not in the least because race is a made-up social construct, and those facts don't go away just because you're trying to put them to use for social justice. Bernie wants to do away with institutional poverty, which would actually fix a lot of problems in the black community, and also it's completely possible to do. Get people out of poverty and they have the power to start businesses, advocate for themselves politically, strengthen their community bonds, etc. Demanding he discuss reparations as a solution is on par with demanding he discuss I Dream of Jeannie as a solution. Paper bag test for welfare? Writing checks to the immigrant son of a Nigerian banker while white kids in Appalachia starve? Taxing Mexicans-Americans to pay off African-Americans?

Even if you think reparations make sense, they'll never happen unless you first transfer more power to the black communities through programs like Bernie's.

So did Bernie say he thinks reparations are a bad idea like this post or did he say they'd be good but impossible. Or just punt the question?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:26

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

mlmp08 posted:

So did Bernie say he thinks reparations are a bad idea like this post or did he say they'd be good but impossible. Or just punt the question?

When asked directly by someone:

quote:

No, I don�t think so. First of all, its likelihood of getting through Congress is nil. Second of all, I think it would be very divisive. The real issue is when we look at the poverty rate among the African American community, when we look at the high unemployment rate within the African American community, we have a lot of work to do.

So I think what we should be talking about is making massive investments in rebuilding our cities, in creating millions of decent paying jobs, in making public colleges and universities tuition-free, basically targeting our federal resources to the areas where it is needed the most and where it is needed the most is in impoverished communities, often African American and Latino.

But then, his campaign ghosted on TNC when given an opportunity to expand or elaborate on that conversation.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:29

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

LGD posted:

He's a dude running for a political office with an agenda of economic and political reform based on what seem to be his personal convictions, not someone competing to have The Most Correct Opinions Ever. TNC has a point that it's much more politically acceptable to talk about radical economic reforms than it is something like reparations (which suggests an avenue of discussion for public discourse in the near future), but that doesn't change the fact that currently one of those things has broad public support and can potentially be turned into a winning issue and the other makes you a political leper. There are degrees of infeasibility, and something like "universal UHC" or "$15 minimum wage" is much, much lower on that scale than "Reparations" or "Full Communism Now!"

It's only counter to "everything his campaign is built on" if you view his campaign as a suicide run to push Hillary to the left during the Democratic primaries (for all the good that would do). If you view his campaign as actually focused on winning the election and trying to get as much of his agenda passed as possible then not letting his campaign get sidetracked by things that are only politically palatable to a small section of the populace or eschewing party orthodoxy on cultural issues that would close off avenues of support is not a betrayal of anything at all. This is pretty classic letting the perfect become the enemy of the good (and being done suspiciously often in support of an establishment "good" that doesn't look good at all when judged by the same standards).

Yeah, I understand why TNC latched onto Sanders saying "getting through Congress" as the feasibility thing, but Sanders basically doesn't agree with reparations and/or thinks it's unfeasible in the getting popular support/elected sense, which it is. It's not steely eyed realism it just is what it is. People may not like it but they shouldn't be surprised.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:33

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

So he said first of all it would not get through congress and second of all it'd be "divisive." And third, he doesn't like reparations and thinks they would be a dumb use of money.

Seems like a pretty straight forward answer, whether one agrees or not.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:40

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

pangstrom posted:

Yeah, I understand why TNC latched onto Sanders saying "getting through Congress" as the feasibility thing, but Sanders basically doesn't agree with reparations and/or thinks it's unfeasible in the getting popular support/elected sense, which it is. It's not steely eyed realism it just is what it is. People may not like it but they shouldn't be surprised.

Guess what else literally isn't going to happen? The whole of Sanders platform. But they're populist winners with white people, so they're cool.

mlmp08 posted:

So he said first of all it would not get through congress and second of all it'd be "divisive." And third, he doesn't like reparations and thinks they would be a dumb use of money.

Seems like a pretty straight forward answer, whether one agrees or not.

The inherent problem isn't really his calculation -- it's almost certainly right. It's that when you apply that test to virtually anything else he proposes, it also fails. So it seems strange that he applies to some things, but not others and that two really notable things he's applied it to happen to be big issues for minority communities, and big no-no's for whites. And it's not really "degrees of failure" here either. Single-payer (UHC and single-payer aren't the same thing, kiddies), free tuition -- those things aren't happening and in the ears of minorities sound like big giveways for white people, while they still live in impoverished communities that are dangerous.

And yes -- I am well aware of what his point is about his economic "revolution" benefiting them too, but you have to realize that when an old white dude from Vermont explicitly engages in pragmatism over black issue, and then turns around and pie-in-the-sky on white-centric issue, that it does come off as only a bit strange.

BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:41

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

Guess what else literally isn't going to happen? The whole of Sanders platform. But they're populist winners with white people, so they're cool.

If you think it's Bernie's job to get into the political deep water on every issue I think you have been and will be disappointed quite often.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:50

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

pangstrom posted:

If you think it's Bernie's job to get into the political deep water on every issue I think you have been and will be disappointed quite often.

Then he's just any other candidate and calling Hillary a pragmatist -- as if it were a dirty word -- when it suits him is borderline hypocrisy. Can't have the cake and it too, I am afraid.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 13:52

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

Then he's just any other candidate and calling Hillary a pragmatist -- as if it were a dirty word -- when it suits him is borderline hypocrisy. Can't have the cake and it too, I am afraid.

Look, I would like pedophiles to have some kind of public-supported avenue that helps them not act out their affliction. I don't expect a politician will engage that issue, yet alone slot it into their platform, any time soon, because I am not a moron. I know why TNC is framing it the way he is, it makes sense for him to do that, AND it makes sense for Bernie to just hope it goes away. What I don't understand is why people are taking the TNC framing as gospel.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:04

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

pangstrom posted:

Look, I would like pedophiles to have some kind of public-supported avenue that helps them not act out their affliction. I don't expect a politician will engage that issue, yet alone slot it into their platform, any time soon, because I am not a moron. I know why TNC is framing it the way he is, it makes sense for him to do that, AND it makes sense for Bernie to just hope it goes away. What I don't understand is why people are taking the TNC framing as gospel.

Because Bernie has framed his entire campaign around a narrative of revolutionary change? Like he's called Hillary an apostate for using the same exact language he did, so it rings a little hollow.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:13

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

pangstrom posted:

Look, I would like pedophiles to have some kind of public-supported avenue that helps them not act out their affliction. I don't expect a politician will engage that issue, yet alone slot it into their platform, any time soon, because I am not a moron. I know why TNC is framing it the way he is, it makes sense for him to do that, AND it makes sense for Bernie to just hope it goes away. What I don't understand is why people are taking the TNC framing as gospel.

Comparing descendants of slaves to pedophiles. Problematic.

I mean of the nigh-endless groups or interests you could have compared them to...

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:19

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

Because Bernie has framed his entire campaign around a narrative of revolutionary change? Like he's called Hillary an apostate for using the same exact language he did, so it rings a little hollow.

This is TNC's frame, but it's just a convenient metabolism of rhetoric. If you think of Bernie as a largely populist politician the rhetoric makes sense and keeping reparations at an arms length makes sense, I don't know what else to tell you.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:37

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

pangstrom posted:

This is TNC's frame, but it's just a convenient metabolism of rhetoric. If you think of Bernie as a largely populist politician the rhetoric makes sense and keeping reparations at an arms length makes sense, I don't know what else to tell you.

Weird how all those populist things he's for are white-centric programs.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:39

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 16:05

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

mlmp08 posted:

Comparing descendants of slaves to pedophiles. Problematic.

I mean of the nigh-endless groups or interests you could have compared them to...

I thought you were joking until the edit. I picked the heaviest political albatross I could think of for illustrative purposes, it wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 14:40

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