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I was just using two Abomination's in the middle rows to fling their chains around. They're drat good just for that.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:22
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Does anyone intentionally bring 4 different classes if you can to dungeons? I generally try to because of aesthetic/~immersion~ choices, but it also helps me keep all of the class abilities fresh in my mind so I remember what they all do. Except for Jesters, which is unfortunate because they're pretty neat on paper, but seem anemic in practice. If they left the damage alone and just buffed their utility aspects, I think they'd be an interesting choice in dungeons, especially long ones where stress can be a bigger issue. e: Not that I think they do too much damage. I just feel like it'd be a one or the other kind of buff, but I'm partial to making them the de facto bard they seem to already represent. A FESTIVE SKELETON fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 21:30
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So I'm looking at the patch notes for the release--- haven't had time to play yet--- and is the Jester actually good now because it seems like he should be
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Jan 20, 2016 21:54
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no, he's garbage. go into your game files and give solo a mark effect and add some +crit to his camp skills, or maybe buff his single target stress cure a little. i did some of the above and now i can actually look at him without puking
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Jan 20, 2016 22:05
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Doctor Schnabel posted:no, he's garbage. go into your game files and give solo a mark effect and add some +crit to his camp skills, or maybe buff his single target stress cure a little. i did some of the above and now i can actually look at him without puking Yea, somehow I don't think making a skill that can mark the entire enemy team is even remotely balanced.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:08
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The jester still manages to be the worst hero by a wide margin, and that's saying a lot considering the leper still exists.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:08
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He can actually attack now though
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Jan 20, 2016 22:12
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Leper is pretty good though. Jester is more of a relic of their old designs.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:12
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Jester just doesn't excel at anything other than stress healing, which isn't really a role you need unless you're running a double abomination party. You can sort of run him in the middle, but he's pretty mediocre with his damage output and against anything that resists bleed he's even worse. Solo might as well not exist since he's too fragile too frontline and the debuff isn't worth having him plink away for 0/1 damage. His design is all over the place and needs to be more focused for him to be really useful. Personally, I would of designed him too have poor damage output but a lot of abilities that move his position and support the team from any spot. So while he doesn't deal a lot of direct damage he can move the rest of your team around so they can use their stronger abilities in the proper spots. Right now he can move forward easily but can't move backwards without being upfront. Rascyc posted:Leper is pretty good though. Jester is more of a relic of their old designs. Leper is still completely outclassed by the other frontliners. I can't think of any reason I'd want to take the leper over an abomination or crusader.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:23
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Megasabin posted:Yea, somehow I don't think making a skill that can mark the entire enemy team is even remotely balanced.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:25
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are you able to mod ally abilities to have unresistable pull/push effects? idk if it'd be useful more generally (and might break that one cove boss with the anchor) but add a stress heal or a buff to it and it might be neat. i'm not 'good' but getting shuffled is always rough nuts.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:30
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Doctor Schnabel posted:hey, if you've got other suggestions, i'm open to hearing em. i'm just looking for reasons to bring that chump along What if you gave the Jester a strong dodge buff + self-mark? A sort of taunt move that lets him dodge tank to some extent?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:30
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Internet Kraken posted:Personally, I would of designed him too have poor damage output but a lot of abilities that move his position and support the team from any spot. So while he doesn't deal a lot of direct damage he can move the rest of your team around so they can use their stronger abilities in the proper spots. Right now he can move forward easily but can't move backwards without being upfront.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:32
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I'm still pretty unsure about e.g. when to stun with my plague doctor or plague bomb the back line, or YAWHP vs just cutting a dude down as a hellion, or Guarding/Riposting as a MaA vs just smashing a nerd, or--you get the idea, when to do buff/debuffy stuff vs just straight attacking. If anyone has any guidance on that front it'd be rad Also what sort of team can take an Abomination, I tried Jester / Occultist / Abom / Abom and it sort of worked?? I guess?? But it felt a bit edge-of-my-teeth the whole time, and I don't like having to have the Jester just so I have a stress healer. Maybe something like Arbalest / Occultist / Abom / MaA? Finally, 0 light runs: when to do them and how to play them differently?
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Jan 20, 2016 22:33
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Internet Kraken posted:Leper is still completely outclassed by the other frontliners. I can't think of any reason I'd want to take the leper over an abomination or crusader. Crusader is pretty one note too after the javelin change. I can't imagine anyone is using the healing on the crusader but maybe someone enjoys it. I like all of the classes except jester. I think grave robber is still my favorite though.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:33
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If I've got bad and/or too stressed heroes I don't care about do I just dismiss them or is it worth sending them on trips until I get them killed? It's currently not financially feasible to de-stress all these chumps.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:37
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RoboCicero posted:are you able to mod ally abilities to have unresistable pull/push effects? idk if it'd be useful more generally (and might break that one cove boss with the anchor) but add a stress heal or a buff to it and it might be neat. i'm not 'good' but getting shuffled is always rough nuts. Mzbundifund posted:What if you gave the Jester a strong dodge buff + self-mark? A sort of taunt move that lets him dodge tank to some extent? JT Jag posted:If he had an ability that let him move back 1 and worked in the third rank, then Dirk Stab would suddenly be useful, and he could bounce between the third and fourth ranks i can see him screaming out into the front, getting everyone's attention, then cheesing it to the back row, where he wiggles between 3 and 4 for the rest of the fight. alternatively, he could just wiggle around back there and buff as needed
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Jan 20, 2016 22:41
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Rascyc posted:Leper can clear corpses and hit pretty hard. His debuff isn't shabby either and his camp skill is still pretty good. Abom can hit hard but not everyone probably wants to deal with the stress I imagine. Leper hits hard when he connects, which he often doesn't. Whiffing attacks becomes a huge problem against level 5 enemies so I'll trade more accuracy for slightly less power. That's not the main problem with the leper. He's utterly useless in positions 3 and 4. I'm of the opinion that the hardest fights in the game are the ones where your party order gets mixed up for whatever reason. You have to either have enough useful abilities that you can contribute to the fight from a variety of positions or have a move that lets you advance back too your desired on. The leper has none of that. He can't do anything if he gets moved backwards. Also on the abomination, he gets way easier too use once you find a restraining padlock. The stress damage too your party becomes miniscule and with some items/perks it can actually result in a minor stress heal. VVV The only ability that moves a class backwards outside of position one is the graverobbers shadow move. If you're using that too move the leper's slow rear end back into position, you aren't lunging for big crits. Unless I'm forgetting a move but I don't think I am. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 22:42
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Use classes that move themselves backwards 
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Jan 20, 2016 22:44
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I'd say the Leper could've really used an ability to draw aggro, but the truth is the Leper could've really used a lot of things. I tried my luck with somebody's customized Leper with Fated locked in and he still misses a fair bit.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:51
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Zaphod42 posted:Wait, what loss state? Stuff like corpses aren't a loss state. Is there a new option there wasn't before? Yes, that's what I meant. There's now a way to lose the game, admittedly locked behind winning it once.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:52
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Rascyc posted:Leper can clear corpses and hit pretty hard. His debuff isn't shabby either and his camp skill is still pretty good. Abom can hit hard but not everyone probably wants to deal with the stress I imagine. Since Crusader basically has two open slots for mediocre skills, I gladly toss Heal and Stress Heal onto my Crusader and basically use them when a character is in dire straits/it's the end of combat and I don't need his attack anyway. Now that Holy Lance is gimped anyway I rarely need it (basically if I anticipate party-shuffle shenanigans) and I'm REALLY not a fan of the Crusader's other skills compared to the utility skills of Leper/Abom/MaA.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:53
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Doctor Schnabel posted:i'm not sure that's possible, unfortunately. you should be able to buff the resistances of your allies, but i don't think you can touch the effectiveness of their actual attacks, beyond buffing their accuracy or crit chance
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Jan 20, 2016 22:53
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Ciaphas posted:I'm still pretty unsure about e.g. when to stun with my plague doctor or plague bomb the back line, or YAWHP vs just cutting a dude down as a hellion, or Guarding/Riposting as a MaA vs just smashing a nerd, or--you get the idea, when to do buff/debuffy stuff vs just straight attacking. If anyone has any guidance on that front it'd be rad If your enemy is dead, he isn't stressing or hurting you. It's almost always better kill a dude than stun, and if you can't stun, damage or debuff. Note that bleed and blight count as "killing" if your skill's damage will take the enemy to 0 and you assume that they don't resist (hello, Plague Doctor). When it gets to the enemy's turn the DOT should finish them off. Some heroes need to set up to be effective, so stunning foes when you can't kill them that turn to prepare you for the next couple of turns is a solid choice. Abominations run well with an Occultist to heal (because the Vestal won't bother, the uptight nun) and a good tanker like a Man at Arms in the lead while the beastman stays in rank 2. Stress management with a Jester shouldn't be an issue with the Abomination's self-heal stress skill, unless you're beasting it up every fight and haven't brought along a trinket to lower stress transformation. Zero light runs are based around classes with high base critical hit chances and high dodge. The enemy will be damaging you more and hitting more often, so tankers will be less useful than just avoiding attacks altogether. By all means take an Occultist/Vestal, but you ought to be slaying dudes fast with crits rather than slugging it out. Hellions, Grave Robbers, Highwaymen and even Jesters do well because they have a high crit base. EDIT: Zero light run characters are also shufflers and movers by nature. You'll probably get surprised more than once so having skills that bounce your dudes around so they can hit from anywhere is essential. Olive Branch fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:02
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Ciaphas posted:I'm still pretty unsure about e.g. when to stun with my plague doctor or plague bomb the back line, or YAWHP vs just cutting a dude down as a hellion, or Guarding/Riposting as a MaA vs just smashing a nerd, or--you get the idea, when to do buff/debuffy stuff vs just straight attacking. If anyone has any guidance on that front it'd be rad Stunning a monster uses your character's turn to negate theirs. Take the following example. Your team is the standard Hellion, Crusader, Highwayman, Vestal. You're in the warrens, fighting a ball-and-chain pig, a hook pig, a vomit pig, and a drummer pig. Round 1 your Hellion and Highwayman killed the vomit pig, and your Crusader and Vestal killed the hook pig. You took some damage from the Ball & Chain pig, and the Drummer Pig marked your hellion. It's now Round 2, and your Hellion goes first. Do you YAWP the Ball & Chain and Drummer Pig, or do you attack? Let's say you attack. Your Hellion doesn't have enough damage to kill either the Drummer or the Ball & Chain pig in one go. So you deal damage to one of them, and maybe you can finish it off with your highwayman, but maybe not, you might need your vestal's help to finish the kill off. Your Crusader is strong but slow, and will probably go after the enemies. So in a best-case scenario here, your Hellion & Highwayman finish off one enemy, but you take a hit from the remaining one, and your Vestal has to spend her turn healing. If you went after the Ball & Chain pig, you're likely to take a party-wide stress attack from the drummer. If you went after the Drummer Pig, the Ball & Chain pig might do a very strong butcher knife attack on your marked Hellion. Let's say you YAWP. Now the enemies get no turns this round. Your vestal can heal up much of the damage you took from round 1, your Crusader & Highwayman can probably finish off one of the enemies, and next round you can have your Hellion, Highwayman, and Vestal all pile onto the remaining pig, probably killing it before your slower Crusader is even needed. Even if you get unlucky, by burning that extra round, you let the mark wear off of your hellion, keeping you a lot safer. In this case, the Hellion stunning basically removed herself and both enemies from taking any actions this round, leaving you with three free characters who get to attack or heal without reprisal. You win the turn economy here. So in general you want to stun if your character's attack is not going to be as useful to you as an enemy NOT attacking. Remember that an attack from a half-dead enemy is just as strong as an attack from a fully healthy one. As for your plague doctor question, usually the choice about when to plague bomb and when to throw the stun powder depends on your other classes. If you brought a Hellion and a Highwayman, you can Iron Swan the back row, pistol shot row 3, and maybe get both into range where a single Plague Bomb will take both back row enemies out. If your party is tanky but short on back-row damage - say your front line is a Leper and a Crusader, then maybe you would rather just stun the back row for a round and let your heavy front line crush through the enemy formation rather than throw a plague bomb that won't really kill the enemies until your front line is ready to murder them anyway. As for the Man-at-Arms, Guarding is great if you are facing enemies that you know can only attack a couple positions. Say you've cleared the enemy back row and are only facing a couple of those sword fish. When those guys are in the front, they can only ever attack the front two positions, so if your Man-At-Arms is in front (as he often is) you can guard the other frontliner, and guarantee every fish attack goes straight into his giant wall of PROT. Forcing the enemy to attack a 40% PROT MAA is like giving a blanket 40% damage debuff to the enemy, very nice.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:05
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Occ-Jester-Abom-MaA/Hel is a party that is pretty simple and works. Jester can party buff round 1 or apply bleeds, apply more bleeds in the follow-ups, and stress heal during the cleanup. You can hulk out every fight with your abom. Take MaA for places where you want a stun or want a tanky guy up front, otherwise hellion is good for damage. With abom hitting out to rank 3 the nerf to if-it-bleeds isn't a big deal. You can also dump more +dmg trinkets on your abom and put utility things like +scouting on your jester. Honestly if you want to improve jester you should probably change one of his moves to a pull effect, call it something like cutting words. Maybe a -prot% debuff on it too if you want. He already has a poo poo-ton of mobility, and while none of his abilities push him back, he can literally move anywhere in your party. Leper's problems are basically (1)lovely base accuracy, (2)lovely attack range, (3)lovely move rate. (1) can be countered by trinkets/quirks/camp buffs, but is annoying. (2) makes some enemy layouts really bad and there isn't much you can do about that. (3) means that surprise attacks that shuffle him can lose multiple turns depending on where he ends up and the order your guys go in. If you gave his self-buff/heals a +forward it'd make (3) not as bad, and if you gave him something like -prot% debuffs to his attacks (or make him ignore some amount of enemy prot%) then attacking into their front would be as bad. So 0 light runs should be something you only do in level 1 or 3 dungeons, because the random shambler encounter is going to wreck your poo poo if you don't have a specific group for it. If you run a 1-26 light run you'll get nearly as much loot without the chance of shambler. You want to make sure you have some -chance to be surprised trinkets, and you want your party to be high spd/dmg. Enemies hit more accurately and harder, expect to basically never dodge and get hit hard. Stuns and bursting down enemies or moving them into spots where they can't unleash the dangerous poo poo is pretty key. And don't use lepers.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:10
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InternetKraken please learn the difference between to and too you are triggering me greatly
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Jan 20, 2016 23:16
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me to
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Jan 20, 2016 23:17
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I don't mind the Jester that much. Just using Battle Ballad to make my guys go faster is very good and he does ok damage in places where bleed works. Personally I have more issues with Highwayman since he doesn't have any utility whatsoever and is completely overshadowed by other classes outside of his camp skills.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:25
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You know what kind of abilities would make the Jester useful? -A buff that moves him to position 4 and the target to position 1. So say your party got shuffled in an ambush, and your Leper got put in the back with your Jester in the front. You could target your Leper and have both characters pop back in the 'ideal' position. If you make your Jester fast enough, you'd be able to do this before the other hero took his action, ensuring he'd be able to use whatever nice front row attack he had. This would also be good for other heroes that either get trinkets that need to be in position 1 or have abilities (Iron Swan) that require it. Tack on a small buff to both the Jester and the target for good measure, say +10% increased Stress Heal and Stress Resistance for 3 turns. With the Leper I think if he had abilities that procced on misses it would make him into an interesting brawler. Like if missing with Chop gave you +5 ACC the following round, while missing with Hew gave +5 speed. I really think Intimidate should self mark the Leper, remove the debuff associatied with it and make it a targetable offensive attack (like what they did with Tracking Shot) Withstand give the guy behind the Leper +10% PROT and +30% move resist. While the buff is up if the Leper is hit but takes 0 damage he heals 3 stress. Purge have it remove all debuffs on the Leper as well as any buffs on any targets. This would be really good vs enemies that get particularly nasty when they buff themselves up. Sanctity give it a buff for the Leper that lets him do bonus damage vs Unholy on all his attacks for 3 rounds, giving all the 'reglious' heroes a common theme (bonus damage vs unholy) Now he could actually tank. Intimidate, Withstand, and let the enemy flail at the meat mountain for minimal damage. He can keep the guy behind him from getting pulled in front of him, so you could put him in the second position to protect a squishy support character. Or you could use him offensively, chopping and hewing like he normally does.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:27
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Mzbundifund posted:What if you gave the Jester a strong dodge buff + self-mark? A sort of taunt move that lets him dodge tank to some extent? This is honestly a pretty brilliant idea, no clue if it could be easily modded in the current system though.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:29
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Nuclearmonkee posted:I don't mind the Jester that much. Just using Battle Ballad to make my guys go faster is very good and he does ok damage in places where bleed works. My only issue with the Highwayman is that his skills are really similar to the Grave Robber. They both have a lunge attack, both have a backward move, both have melee and ranged skills, both have DoT and AoE, high speed, dodge, crit setup. Much like how Abomination has a Human/Beast mode, I wish that mechanic was used to give the Highwayman a Melee/Ranged stance, giving buffs/debuffs depending on which stance.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:31
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Okay, so! If you use a Kickstarter character who doesn't have his/her default skills leveled/unlocked, be advised that you need to buy said skills, both combat and camping, otherwise you won't have any skills in combat and any camping skills that are "set" but not purchased will cause your game to crash and never resolve once you go camping. gently caress you, Lazarius.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:32
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Panfilo posted:My only issue with the Highwayman is that his skills are really similar to the Grave Robber. They both have a lunge attack, both have a backward move, both have melee and ranged skills, both have DoT and AoE, high speed, dodge, crit setup. Yeah highwayman feels like a grave robber but worse, since grave robber's lunge is very powerful and they also have some defensive/utility abilities.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:33
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Yeah highwayman feels like a grave robber but worse, since grave robber's lunge is very powerful and they also have some defensive/utility abilities. Grave Robber works best from the back, Highwayman works best from the front. GR has marginally more utility but toxin trickery is awful and shadow fade is more of a reset button than anything else since row 1/2 is not ideal for her. GR is definitely more useful, but mostly because there's less competition for back row damage dealers.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:39
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Night10194 posted:Yes, that's what I meant. There's now a way to lose the game, admittedly locked behind winning it once. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:43
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how many loving gangs of perma-critting bandits can one forest hold
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Jan 20, 2016 23:52
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RoboCicero posted:oh, what i meant was like, giving the Jester the ability to move your allies around via skills, possibly by adding push/pull keywords to a single-ally-targeted skill, unless that's what you meant, in which case carry on!
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Jan 20, 2016 23:55
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How are people using their dogs? This is probably my weirdest class to slot now and I just use him as filler and to do whatever every round. I feel like the guard ability probably has some use but I use feast/famine tactics more than defensive unless a stun is involved.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:00
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| # ? May 26, 2024 17:03 |
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Darkest Dungeon question; Can templars use revelation on anyone or just the front two spots? Cause if they can hit everyone I'm not sure what the gently caress to do about that other than pray the person without a talisman goes virtuous.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:07
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