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IDK the core game as it was released in 2013 is baaaasically "X-Wing, but we renamed the actions." Most of the shittiness comes from the expansions which use sloppy wording and apparently zero playtesting of interactions with existing stuff. Admittedly the really simplistic point costing formula breaks down when you start giving ships 6+ primary attack and 10+ durability, so maybe a little more thought into that would have been good. Like, you could have had the Borg as terrifying omnidirectional movement turret ships with 6 attack and 12+ hull/shields, if you'd factored it into the point cost and made a sphere like 65 points or whatever to account for the fact that it breaks the two most basic constraints of the Flightpath system... instead of just sum of stats X2 like everything else.
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Dec 12, 2015 21:41
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Otisburg please get help. e; I mean that in a sympathetic way.
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Dec 12, 2015 21:48
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Kai Tave posted:Otisburg please get help. I don't have a problem. I can stop playing any time I want. I just, you know, don't want to right now.
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Dec 12, 2015 21:51
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Otisburg posted:IDK the core game as it was released in 2013 is baaaasically "X-Wing, but we renamed the actions." I don't think it was that good in the first place- I mean, the point costing was there from the start and fundamentally flawed for pretty much everything. X-wing had a formula, too, but it wasn't quite as simple and probably better reflected the value of different things on the stats as well as the dials. That being said, it still sucked, and most of the ships from wave 1 and 2 have gotten one fix or another to make them a lot better. Picard was in the first set, for example. Oh, the development is dumb, too, but a lot of the problems were there from the beginning. Some of the faction gimmicks were really, really dumb, too- hey, look, a faction with no battlestations/focus action. This is super interesting! Yeah! That being said, I think the concept of it might be interesting. The idea of a game with more powerful/attackable upgrades, and more maneuvers(back maneuvers), etc, is cool and all, but I don't think Wizkids could've made it.
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Dec 12, 2015 21:51
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I should have expected this going in. Mechwarrior: Dark Age me, shame on you. Star Trek: Attack Wing me, shame on me.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:02
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Otisburg posted:I should have expected this going in. Could be worse- you could have D&D attack wing.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:05
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Panzeh posted:Could be worse- you could have D&D attack wing. I demo'ed it and wasn't really jazzed. The miniatures, the dragons at least, were better than average looking for that sort of thing. "Armor" in that game worked like "Shields" should have worked in STAW.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:09
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I keep looking at Star Wars Armada and keep thinking that it would have made a much better system for modelling Star Trek fights that the flightpath system ever could. I must admit that i haven't played STAW but my basis of Star Trek combat is Starfleet Command, and in that game the ships don't move like zippy fighters, they move like ponderous capital ships. There are so many things that work extremely well in Armada for a Star Trek-like combat: - Multiple shield facings! - Engineering commands, concentrating firepower, going faster/slower/turning sharper! - Multiple fields of fire, with the only difference that you have less firepower in certain sections! - Tiny little fighter squadrons (like in DS9!)/runabouts/shuttles etc - More swooping flight system Just seems to work so much better. Hopefully wizkids doesn't get any ideas though.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:06
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This is my first miniatures game. Do these games really need the competitive scene to thrive in order to survive or can they be supported by casuals?
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Dec 14, 2015 17:10
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It depends where you live really. If you have a buddy to play with and you both play casually, it isn't an issue, but the pool of people playing will necessarily be smaller. Also I found this on BGG, a review of STAW from the heady days of 2013: quote:The game mechanic is outstanding. If Attack Wing had been released before X-Wing, I think you would have lots of people saying "Why can't X-Wing pilots change ships like they do in Attack Wing?" The answer to that question is 'Because it leads to just one or two captains being on every ship'.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:14
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Now that TFA renewed my starwar enthusiasm and I'm drinking deep from the well of wangs, I look at the tighter wording on the cards and the more carefully planned expansions and interactions and constrained stats and abilities, and realize that Attack Wing is basically the gonzo fanfiction version of what a flightpath space game looks like. The trying too hard Lord Nyax to X-Wing's Vader. "Oh we're going to give a ship a SIX PRIMARY TURRET and let it move in ANY DIRECTION and Captian Picard is the BEST and and" I am going to firesale everything but my feds and some token OpFor faction (it's still okay for a casual lark with a Trekkie bro) and go full wang. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 09:59
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I now realize that my life aboard the STAW was a waste. My quest to become an event organizer for a bad wizkids game; misguided. An evolutionary step in the wrong direction .... I am not your puppet anymore!
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Jan 19, 2016 11:54
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Otisburg posted:I now realize that my life aboard the STAW was a waste. My quest to become an event organizer for a bad wizkids game; misguided. An evolutionary step in the wrong direction .... I am not your puppet anymore! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70
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Jan 19, 2016 12:02
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So, I don't give a poo poo about the game, I just want Borg spaceships. Should I wait for the game to die before scouring eBay?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:21
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Otisburg posted:I now realize that my life aboard the STAW was a waste. My quest to become an event organizer for a bad wizkids game; misguided. An evolutionary step in the wrong direction .... I am not your puppet anymore! Thread title 100% accurate. Experience Biiiiijjjjjj
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Jan 20, 2016 00:37
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Kilo147 posted:So, I don't give a poo poo about the game, I just want Borg spaceships. Should I wait for the game to die before scouring eBay? Check out the facebook sale/trade group and lowball one of the many dejected flotsom rats firesaling collections, IMO.
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Jan 20, 2016 05:37
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The final op kit my flgs is doing is on sunday. Ill prob go, buy an xwing ship for my entry fee, get a prize ship and never look at STAW ever again. Welp it was (sorta) fun making up ridiculous combos while it lasted. "May the force be with you" ~ Spock
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Jan 20, 2016 06:29
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Yeah I still have an OP kit from the Enterprise Temporal Cold War arc I'm pretty much obliged to schedule and run, but I mean that's basically the final court date to make the divorce official. I'm already sharing an apartment with X-Wing.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:31
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Otisburg posted:Check out the facebook sale/trade group and lowball one of the many dejected flotsom rats firesaling collections, IMO. uh, link?
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Jan 20, 2016 06:50
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/StarTrekAttackWingMarketplace/ I don't have a specific posting to point you to, and haven't looked at it in a while, but the "selling all my things" lots are increasing in frequency so keep an eye on it if you want I guess.
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Jan 20, 2016 06:58
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Looks like the thread title was updated 
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Jan 21, 2016 13:12
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Tekopo posted:Looks like the thread title was updated This is now the Wizkids appreciation station, where we mock Wizkids for being bad at games, including Star Trek Attack Wing. Remember Mechwarrior: Dark Age with blind boosters where maybe you got a "real" battlemech, and maybe you got a labormech, the 'mech equivalent of a dumptruck or a combine, with no guns or anything? That was bad, and I was stupid for thinking STAW would be better.
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Jan 21, 2016 13:33
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Well I heard horror stories about how the Mage Knight miniatures game was hosed over as well thanks to bad OP/unbalanced poo poo.
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Jan 21, 2016 13:36
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Otisburg posted:This is now the Wizkids appreciation station, where we mock Wizkids for being bad at games, including Star Trek Attack Wing. Regale me with stories of Mechwarrior and Mage Knight. I've never played those games or any other wizkids games, but I heard they screwed the pooch on them as well.
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Jan 21, 2016 13:39
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Attestant posted:I really liked Mage Knight. It was my gateway drug from MtG to miniatures games. But boy did they gently caress it up. It should be a goddamn case study on how to not run a collectibles based game.
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Jan 21, 2016 13:51
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Basically wizkids are a real example of cargo cult design. Hey MtG does blind boosters, Mechwarrior: Dark Age can have blind boosters! Hey X-Wing is popular and we have the Star Trek license, let's make a Star Trek minis game!
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Jan 21, 2016 13:52
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Fourteen Goddamn Years ago, I wrote this about a structural problem with the activation and "pushing" mechanic in Heroclix/Mechwarrior:quote:The one fundamental flaw of the system is what has been dubbed in my gaming circle as the "Clix game dance." There is an undue incentive to play passively and "turtle," as a great deal of momentum is taken away from the attacker. A basic example: It was a weird mechanical conceit that actually ratfucked the theme of games about superheroes flying in to pound the piss out of eachother, or giant stompy robots, tanks, and battlesuits blitzing across a laser-scarred battlefield.
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Jan 21, 2016 14:00
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Lest we forget, Wizkids also has some of the worst quality products/painted minis in the business as well. These, for example, are the painted minis that come with the Mage Knight Board Game (not to be confused with the Mage Knight Miniatures Game):  Heroclix is one of the main reasons why the company is so successful, and also one of the main reasons why people thought that prepainted minis could only have poo poo paint jobs. Then came X-Wing and wow, pre-painted minis can actually look good? Incredible! Let's have a comparison:  They can't even be bothered to ink the drat ship, it looks like a plastic piece of poo poo  Actually a pretty nice paint job, and this isn't a MacDonald's Effect photo Not only that, but the material quality of their cards is poo poo, their tokens are poo poo, they can't do inserts worth a drat and also the following: MikeCrotch posted:Except the Mage Knight board game, that's the only thing they make that is worth your money (thanks, Vlaada!) Wizkids are eternal fuckups and not the endearing kind. There's a reason why I put a warning on the Board Game thread OP not to buy their poo poo (even though the Mage Knight Board Game is beloved by goons). Tekopo fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 14:10
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Thanks for putting a finger on that, Otisburg. A group of my board game buddies play Heroclix religiously, and I've always hated the pushing mechanic, it pretty much killed the whole game for me but I could never really elaborate well enough on why. Something just feels awful about superheroes having to take a breather between actions, same thing with giant war machines.
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Jan 21, 2016 14:16
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Tekopo posted:
X-wing models are so nice just out of the blister. Goonfession: The first banner picture in the OP (that I replaced with enterprise beercan dog when I vandalized my own OP) was kind of stacking the deck by showing my Enterprise Refit and Reliant customs that had been inked, detailed, and had the lettering decal applied to polish the turd. Out of the box they looked like lovely garbage, same as all Wizkids poo poo. FFG is proof that prepaints can look nice at a reasonable price-point, WK just doesn't give a poo poo.
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Jan 21, 2016 14:21
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Attack Dice inflation really screwed up STAW. In X-Wing, getting an additional attack dice is rare and special. This means that, in broad terms, you can expect most ships to stand up to a least a few shots In STAW 8-10+ die attacks from a single ship with battlestations(focus) and a target lock were fairly easily attainable with action and effect stacking, and most ships were 1-2 evade with 7-10 or so total hit points. So in the snub fighter game unless you're really unlucky or the enemy really focuses fire, you can have a little back-and-forth laser fire and maneuvering before you start pulling most reasonably durable pieces off the table. But, gently caress-ed-ly, in the big capitol ship game, you were a lot more likely to just outright lose a piece on the first pass to an alpha strike. Which thematically made the momentum a little weird. I feel like FFG knows what it means to the underlying nuts and bolts and math of the thing, which is why 4 attack is rare and 5 attack is unheard of. Conversely is sort of feels like WK just licenced the flightpath system and said "well Star Trek ships are bigger so we'll make them all 4-6 attack dice, and make it easy to add 2 or three on top of that" without sparing a thought for what that meant to probability curves and poo poo. All kinds of recognizable X-Wing style mechanics that FFG carefully limits got kind of run away with and "Fanfiction"ed that way. It's not terribly difficult to make a ship that can perform 3-4 actions a turn with no real drawback to doing so. Their version of "Howlrunner," a Romulan captain, just flat out grants an extra attack die in her range 1 bubble. And the end result of divorcing captains from their ships is basically that Picard (essentially Darth Vader, only the second action comes from his own personal sweet action bar) Goes On Everything.
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Jan 21, 2016 14:33
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My favorite attackwing things: having 20 different versions of proton torpedos all of which have slightly different wording and ship limitations on them. Discard: 5 points - [4 paragraphs of poo poo with a flowchart of conditions for some horrible effect that dhdhdbe...gently caress why didnt i just buy donatra instead with these points....] 6 waves a year. Total playtest time for each ship: a lunch break one day. Jesus the list goes on
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Jan 21, 2016 15:16
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I love reading game/metagame postmortems, post all the MWDA and Attack Wing poo poo you got. (Also the Decipher Star Trek CCG if you want to toss that in )
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Jan 21, 2016 15:28
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Tekopo posted:Otisburg, was the Weyoun/Varel combo ever fixed, because one of my friends that used to play STAW told me about it and it sounds funny as hell. Otisburg posted:You forgot the punchline. When this was already running buckwild in the pre wave 4 meta they released another guy (on an exclusive prize ship, LOL), that you could sac instead of your captain, so you had this rube Goldberg thing that let you cancel one attack with Varel by saccing him, one more that same turn by disabling Weyoun, and if things were desperate, a third one by finally ditching her for realsies.
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Jan 21, 2016 15:32
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Also bear in mind that while swarms (cheap ships that you can field a lot of, like tie fighters) were still useful in x-wing, what the gently caress are you gonna do with a whip that has like 2 attack dice and can be one shot by one of the big ship builds?
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Jan 21, 2016 15:35
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Yeah, the funny thing is while there's like twenty two goddamn waves of Attack Wing, there are probably fewer (NOT PROPORTIONALLY, IN ABSOLUTE NUMBER) ships worth fielding than there are in the X-Wing meta. And as far as viable Captains, it's probably even more hosed. And yeah the whole category of ships that normally you'd consider a swarmer were basically useless because of the aforementioned dice inflation. X-wing has its downsides and real dogs, but they're nothing compared to this mess.
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Jan 21, 2016 15:40
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There are relatively few ships which see absolutely no use in tourneys and at least FFG goes back and fixes (even though it's just extra money for them). As a means of comparison, x-wing has an issue with 2 attack ships being slightly edged out of the meta. I can't even imagine how far below the meta curve 2 attack ships would be in STAW. There is an upcoming ship in x-wing that has a 360 arc radius and in order to upgrade its attack from 2 to 3 it costs 12 points! The Borg sphere has a native 6 attack on 360 and its 38 points 
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Jan 21, 2016 16:43
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I think it's extremely cool how Attack Wing now has THIRTEEN seemingly arbitrary factions, some of which only have 2-3 ships, some of which of those 1-2 of which are only available as event prizes. E: and it barely matters, because you can pay 1 point more to put most things wherever anyway. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 16:49
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They solved that by having no penalty for arbitrarily mixing faction stuff
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Jan 21, 2016 16:54
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Star Trek Attack Wing is the protective husk around some serviceable Trek TNG spaceship models. No more.
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Jan 21, 2016 17:12
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