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Beeez posted:If they look angry, they most likely are angry, and angrily attacking somebody is an avenue toward the Dark Side. When you have both the script and the novelization agreeing with our interpretation that Rey was angry, almost killed Kylo Ren in anger, and was teetering on the edge of the Dark Side, I don't see any reason to doubt that interpretation. She deepened her connection to the Force, but that doesn't mean she's protected from the Dark Side. I like how you decided to write a post I already responded to in the third sentence of the one you quoted. "Teetering on the edge" or being tempted by the Dark Side isn't giving into it. I was initially responding to computer parts for saying that no lightsaber fight has ever been won by someone without them channeling the Dark Side, which Rey never did.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:06
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Is there a canonical conclusion listed somewhere that explicitly says that Vader killing Palpatine was the completion of the prophecy? My gut feels like we actually haven't seen 'Balance' brought to the force, and in some way just hearing it speaks more to the heavily delineated separation between light/dark (when it seems there is the Force, and you can use/call it what you will). In this way I imagine that 'balance' is merely ideological rather than specifically a numbers or power play, insofar as the Jedi order espoused a strict interpretation of how to use the force, and the Sith another, when in fact there is no reason that a complete 'balanced' force user wouldn't take advantage of whatever the force lent/directed them in a specific situation.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:08
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How long was The Force out of whack before this prophecy came to light? Also, how old is the prophecy? I can't even remember if that was even mentioned in TPM or if it was just some part of Jedi lore you subscribe to without thinking much about it,
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Jan 21, 2016 22:10
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computer parts posted:That's under the assumption that the Jedi Order was mostly right. If you want to throw out what the Jedi say about the force then you are left with nothing. You can't talk about the force in terms of light side and dark side without accepting what the Jedi say about it. They are literally the only people who can provide exposition on the subject. Baronash fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 22:10
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Basebf555 posted:Comedic purposes? I don't even know how that's relevant. I mean, comedic purposes for us as viewers. We get to see someone or something we thought were weak minded resist mind trick and then retort with something snappy and then we get to see the dumbfounded reaction face of whoever attempted it. Anyway, the fact that Qui-Gon, an apprentice of Dooku, tried to use mind trick to manipulate Watto in order to free Anakin and his mom without much effort is kind of in character. We learn from TPM that he's not the most popular Jedi Knight and regularly breaks the rules but is obviously a strong proponent of the Light Side and an earnest practitioner of the Jedi ways even if he occasionally strays from it. Which makes me wonder why he was even given an apprentice. Maybe the Council thought giving him a padawan after he graduated from Yoda Elementary School would allow Qui-Gon to straighten himself out. Instead it leads to a reckless Obi-Wan which leads to the brash training of Anakin which leads to the fall of the entire Jedi Order as a whole.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:12
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Baronash posted:If you want to throw out what the Jedi say about the force than you are left with nothing. You can't talk about the force in terms of light side and dark side without accepting what the Jedi say about it. They are literally the only people who can provide exposition on the subject. The only points where the Jedi say killing is good is the aftermath of Anakin's fight with Dooku (as you mentioned) and in ROTJ when Obi-Wan and Yoda say that that is the only way to defeat the Emperor. In both cases (or at the very least the latter) they are proven wrong.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:14
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Baronash posted:I was initially responding to computer parts for saying that no lightsaber fight has ever been won by someone without them channeling the Dark Side, which Rey never did. Rey sees that Finn has been struck down by the same person that killed Han Solo. The hate is swelling in her now. She takes the Jedi weapon. After a difficult battle she disarms her opponent, and is prepared to give into her anger and strike him down.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:15
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Parachute posted:How long was The Force out of whack before this prophecy came to light? Also, how old is the prophecy? I can't even remember if that was even mentioned in TPM or if it was just some part of Jedi lore you subscribe to without thinking much about it, For some number of years between a hundred years and a hundred generations. Some theorize that the answer is both simultaneously due to The Force's influence in quantum physics, ala Bigger Imbalance Theory
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Jan 21, 2016 22:16
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Basebf555 posted:Comedic purposes? I don't even know how that's relevant. Literally all moral codes worth a drat do this.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:18
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computer parts posted:The only points where the Jedi say killing is good is the aftermath of Anakin's fight with Dooku (as you mentioned) and in ROTJ when Obi-Wan and Yoda say that that is the only way to defeat the Emperor. In both cases (or at the very least the latter) they are proven wrong. I take it that this means Vader, tempted towards the light side by his son, threw the emperor into what was actually the sealed and padded black box of the death star, so that he can think about what he did.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:19
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Schwarzwald posted:The hate is swelling in her now. She takes the Jedi weapon. After a difficult battle she disarms her opponent, and is prepared to give into her anger and strike him down. I could not read this without hearing Sheev's voice in my head.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:19
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The Force was out of balance due to all those Jedi running around. Anakin managed to bring it all back into alignment over the course of all six movies. Such a shame the balance didn't last, as seen in TFA.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:19
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Serf posted:The Force was out of balance due to all those Jedi running around. Anakin managed to bring it all back into alignment over the course of all six movies. Such a shame the balance didn't last, as seen in TFA. Except you don't know this, since Rey was not a typical Sith, and Snoke is currently a mystery. Also the prophecy totes meant Luke, who decided to show compassion towards a disciple of the Dark Side all vader did was display his incredible elder-lifting skills
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Jan 21, 2016 22:21
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This is where we get into the key distinction between 'falling to the dark side' (which Rey does not) and 'being clouded by the dark side' (which Rey absolutely is). Palpatine: The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way - including their quest for greater power. Sheev's estimation is entirely accurate; what the Jedi define as 'the light side' is in fact merely a disavowal of the quest for power. In Force Awakens, this Jedi ideology returns with a vengeance, presented as unquestionably righteous.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:22
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Schwarzwald posted:Rey sees that Finn has been struck down by the same person that killed Han Solo. The hate is swelling in her now. She takes the Jedi weapon. After a difficult battle she disarms her opponent, and is prepared to give into her anger and strike him down. What is this a quote from?
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Jan 21, 2016 22:22
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Counterpoint: Luke had a robot hand and wore all black in ROTJ but was still not bad.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:23
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Neurolimal posted:Except you don't know this, since Rey was not a typical Sith, and Snoke is currently a mystery. Also the prophecy totes meant Luke, who decided to show compassion towards a disciple of the Dark Side What? Rey isn't a Sith at all, much less a "typical" one. And the balance isn't about Jedi vs Sith, it's about light vs. dark. By showing compassion towards Vader, Luke was directly responsible for him killing off the Emperor and getting killed himself. Luke, who embraced the dark side concept of "developing attachments" was balanced in a way that the Jedi and Sith weren't.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:26
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The whole Balance of The Force thing confuses me when I think about it. Is it simply an issue of numbers? Like if there's 100 Force Users on Team Light Side and only 2 Force Users on Team Dark Side, does that mean The Force wants there to be 2 on Light Side and 2 on Dark Side? Would it be just as happy if there were 100 on Dark Side? Does The Force just want there to be NO Force practitioners so it can penetrate all of us all the time without anyone messing with it for Light or for Dark Side purposes? It's one of the things that TPM added that I think is worse than Jar Jar at times because of the ramifications it has on everything.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:28
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AndyElusive posted:The only times we see Jedi attempt to use mind trick for personal gain during negotiations is usually when the stakes are high and usually for comedic purposes because it doesn't work ie. Qui-Gon vs Watto, Luke vs Jabba. They mindtrick Boss Nass but then it's up to you if that counts as 'personal gain'.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:30
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AndyElusive posted:The whole Balance of The Force thing confuses me when I think about it. It's left up to your interpretation, but the Jedi (and I think Lucas himself) consider balance to be the defeat of the dark side. There is no "light side" mentioned in Star Wars until TFA. For the Jedi, the dark side is the imbalance; the non-dark aspects of the force promote harmony, peace, and connectedness, and the dark side throws that into disarray.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:32
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AndyElusive posted:"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” – Yoda Counterpoint: Windu was right, Sheev was too dangerous to be left alive. His mistake was just using some elaborate swing rather than just thrusting the sabre.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:33
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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If it helps, the 'balance of the Force' thing could just be the Jedi coming up with a good reason to go and kill all the Sith. It wouldn't be the first time a religion came up with some weird prophecy/parable to justify killing "those guys we don't like". Since this is a space opera, though, those guys we don't like actually do eat babies and worship lying, or whatever.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:33
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AndyElusive posted:Does The Force just want there to be NO Force practitioners so it can penetrate all of us all the time without anyone messing with it for Light or for Dark Side purposes? While I don't think that the Force is demonstrated to want anything, over the course of the movies it does seem to guide events so that it ends up with the smallest number of Force users (Luke, and maybe Leia but TFA kinda nixed her being a full-on Force user).
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Jan 21, 2016 22:33
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Serf posted:What? Rey isn't a Sith at all, much less a "typical" one. And the balance isn't about Jedi vs Sith, it's about light vs. dark. By showing compassion towards Vader, Luke was directly responsible for him killing off the Emperor and getting killed himself. I meant Ren. I figured this would have been an easy mistake to figure out. He has attachments, he doesn't succumb to them, he controls his emotions but still has them, he shows compassion (but also restrains it in pursuit of his goal) He's badman because he supports the KKK, but he's not a sith.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:41
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AndyElusive posted:The whole Balance of The Force thing confuses me when I think about it. computer parts posted:The only points where the Jedi say killing is good is the aftermath of Anakin's fight with Dooku (as you mentioned) and in ROTJ when Obi-Wan and Yoda say that that is the only way to defeat the Emperor. In both cases (or at the very least the latter) they are proven wrong. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 22:43
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Neurolimal posted:I meant Ren. I figured this would have been an easy mistake to figure out. I don't remember where I called Kylo Ren a Sith.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:47
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Serf posted:I don't remember where I called Kylo Ren a Sith. You suggested that TFA conflicts with Luke balancing the force in ROTJ. I suggested that this isn't true, and is in fact evident of his success (in my opinion) by the fact that all the villains have sympathetic and vulnerable aspects, and explicitly don't fit the mold of a typical sith lord (because those dont exist anymore).
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Jan 21, 2016 22:50
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It's obvious that Luke tore the ground between Ren and Rae apart, saving Rae from the dark side until he can teach her how to use it properly against other dark side users.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:50
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Neurolimal posted:You suggested that TFA conflicts with Luke balancing the force in ROTJ. I suggested that this isn't true, and is in fact evident of his success (in my opinion) by the fact that all the villains have sympathetic and vulnerable aspects, and explicitly don't fit the mold of a typical sith lord (because those dont exist anymore). We don't know enough to say for certain if Snoke is a sympathetic character, but the evidence in TFA does not suggest this. You're right that Kylo Ren and Rey both seem to have elements of light and darkness in them, as evidenced by Kylo struggling with the light and Rey almost killing him when he was down. It will be interesting to see how things play out over the course of the whole trilogy with regards to the balance of the Force, but Snoke would appear to be all-in dark side. They could gently caress up Luke and have him be some paragon of the light, but I hope not.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:56
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I am also expecting that whether Luke survives Episode IX will be directly related to how well his character (as presented in Episode VIII) is received. They *could* kill him off in VIII and Force-ghost him for however long they like, but they can make more money by letting that be a fan decision. Also, killing off one "old" Star Wars character per movie would become a joke immediately after it became a pattern.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:08
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AndyElusive posted:The whole Balance of The Force thing confuses me when I think about it. You are effectively asking if God wants there to be a balance of 100 catholic priests and 100 satanic priests. It's a major misinterpretation of the true scope of the conflict. It's important to look at what's actually happening in the films. Both the destruction of Alderaan and the emergence of Luke Skywalker, inspirational Rebel hero, are described as 'great disturbances in the Force'. The concept of disturbance and imbalance is thus ambiguous. The films, in their way, promote imbalance - the sudden explosion of great traumatic Events that disrupt the balance of things. The ultimate such event is Vader's death. In this view, the Death Star is not radical enough. It is, after all, designed to maintain balance, by keeping rebellious systems in line. It is a mere technological terror, insignificant next to the power of the Force. The true meaning of the prophecy of 'restoring balance to the Force' can be thus found via a Hegelian negation of negation: "Here, 'negation of negation' is the shift from the idea that we are violating some natural balanced order to the idea that imposing on the Real such a notion of balanced order is in itself the greatest violation… which is why the premise, the first axiom even, of every radical ecology is 'there is no Nature.'" -Zizek From a radical standpoint, the concept of a balanced Force is, itself, the greatest imbalance. This is why Vader's violent death fulfills the prophecy in a very specific way: the death of the incarnation of the Force signals the terrifying truth that there is no Force. The Force is dead, in the sense that we (can) become conscious of the fact that it never existed. Going further: "This passage from the distortion of a notion to a distortion constitutive of this notion is what is enacted in the Hegelian notion of totality: 'totality' is not an ideal of organic Whole, but a critical notion – to 'locate a phenomenon in its totality' does not mean to see the hidden harmony of the Whole, but to include into a system all its 'symptoms,' antagonisms, inconsistencies, as its integral parts. In other words, the Hegelian totality is by definition 'self-contradictory,' antagonistic, inconsistent: the 'Whole' which is the 'True' (Hegel: 'das Ganze is das Wahre') is the Whole plus its symptoms, unintended consequences which betray its untruth. For Marx, the 'totality' of capitalism includes crises as its integral moment; for Freud, the 'totality' of a human subject includes pathological symptoms as the indicators of what is 'repressed' in the official image of the subject. The underlying premise is that the Whole is never truly whole: every notion of Whole leaves something out, and the dialectical effort is precisely the effort to include this excess, to account for it. Symptoms are never just secondary failures or distortions of the basically sound System – they are indicators that there is something 'rotten' (antagonistic, inconsistent) in the very heart of the System." -Zizek Once we understand that the Whole of the Force is darkness, we can move past that to understand the True Whole, which is the Force plus its exclusions, failures, and inconsistencies. This is why radical exegesis of the Star Wars films places such emphasis on the question of slavery - especially droid slavery - and on those homeless or otherwise excluded (e.g. Jar Jar, the sand-people...). The authentic light side is the Holy Spirit, and a true Jedi fights only for the Kingdom of God AKA the dictatorship of the proletariat. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 23:23
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Welp I never thought about it like that, that's for sure.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:44
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The idea of 'balance' as equal numbers of Jedi and Sith, arranged like figures on a chessboard, does make sense from a certain point of view: "For Lacan, the reality of human beings is constituted by three mutually entangled levels: the Symbolic, the Imaginary, and the Real. This triad can be nicely illustrated by the game of chess. The rules one has to follow in order to play it are its symbolic dimension: from the purely formal symbolic standpoint, 'knight' is defined only by the moves this figure can make. This level is clearly different from the imaginary one, namely the way different pieces are shaped and characterized by their names (king, queen, knight), and it is easy to envision a game with the same rules, but with a different imaginary, in which this figure would be called 'messenger' or 'runner' or whatever. Finally, real is the entire complex set of contingent circumstances which affect the course of the game: the intelligence of the players, the unpredictable intrusions that may disconcert one of the players or directly cut the game short." -Zizek (my Italics) That 'chessboard' view of reality simply misses the Real - the fact that a Wookie will tend to rip your arms off if you win.  This is also why Star Wars has an extended race sequence - one that makes sure to include sand-people sniping players from the sidelines.
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Jan 22, 2016 00:08
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Video about the special effects of TFA, first half is about TFA, rest is other instructional stuff by FX Guide TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G42oiW2EosU Interviews and explanations of how/when/why effects were used. Teek fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 00:26
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Darth Aatrek. hahaha
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Jan 22, 2016 03:28
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AndyElusive posted:Welp I never thought about it like that, that's for sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzLRevhMP_0
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Jan 22, 2016 04:18
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Ray Park
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Jan 22, 2016 05:08
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Lord Hydronium posted:In Lucas' view, the dark side is basically a cancer upon the Force, and as the principle masters of the dark side, the Sith unbalance the Force with their existence. Balance to the Force is destroying the Sith (as mentioned by Windu in ROTS). This is not the case. The Sith are the cancer. The dark side is a necessary part of the cosmic balance. You can't have life without death, or creation without destruction, and all that. The reason the Sith are so bad is because their actions increase the dark side's influence far out of proportion with that of the light side.
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Jan 22, 2016 05:09
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A dude from my work got to go to that, his friend manages this theatre. I was incredibly jealous.
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Jan 22, 2016 05:14
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I want Ray Park back in Star Wars
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Jan 22, 2016 05:15
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