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Steve2911 posted:I might be mis-remembering, but I don't think they ever want to take power for themselves. They just don't want satan to have it. Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office. MACE WINDU: The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . . YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:05
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Tezzor posted:I will say in all sincerity that this thread has so far made me regard one scene in the prequels more favorably: The scene in which Palpatine tells the Senate that the Jedi were really the bad guys and they all totally buy it while he looks and sounds like a terrifying monster who is yelling about being dictator for life. I did not believe that scene at all. No way anyone could be that stupid. It turns out that at least several people are that stupid. That's just dramatic irony. Also if you watch the movie you would find out the senate is corrupt.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:06
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Tezzor posted:I will say in all sincerity that this thread has so far made me regard one scene in the prequels more favorably: The scene in which Palpatine tells the Senate that the Jedi were really the bad guys and they all totally buy it while he looks and sounds like a terrifying monster who is yelling about being dictator for life. I did not believe that scene at all. No way anyone could be that stupid. It turns out that at least several people are that stupid. The Jedi weren't the bad guys. They were fundamentally good guys who nonetheless compromised their morals and became the very thing they were fighting to destroy. It's a very common theme in fiction. It is literally the central theme of Star Wars. As for your other point, I have to agree. I also found it really implausible how all those Germans took that silly Hitler guy seriously when he started screaming like a madman about how the perfidious Jews were responsible for all the ills of society. I mean, how stupid can you be? And, unlike the Jedi, the Jews didn't even do anything wrong. Zoran posted:Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from And this is even before they find out Palpatine's Satan. And knowing Palpatine is Satan doesn't make a Jedi takeover of the Senate any less morally questionable. No one's saying they're exactly as bad as the Sith. But once you've gotten to the point where you're plotting a conspiracy to subvert the democratic process in order to save it, you're on very shaky moral ground. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:08
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Steve2911 posted:I might be mis-remembering, but I don't think they ever want to take power for themselves. They just don't want satan to have it. Again, they don't know that he's space-Satan yet. They just know he's a politician who's managed to stay in office longer than usual, probably for selfish reasons (as opposed to his excuse of the Republic needing a consistent leadership to win the war). You're right that they don't seem to want to take direct control of the Republic for good. But if they feel legitimized in forcefully removing the democratically elected leader from office whenever they want then what's the difference really? Keep in mind that even by the time of the OT Palpatine still maintains the illusion that the Empire is not just his sole dictatorship, by keeping the Senate etc. intact.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:09
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I just go through the 2 or 3 episodes introducing Boba Fett in the Clone Wars series. How hosed up must it be to see people you grew up with age so fast and most likely be dead weeks / months later. Did we ever get a timeline on how fast they age these guys? Also the failures to become troopers turn into goddamn janitors as a possible role.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:10
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Vintersorg posted:I just go through the 2 or 3 episodes introducing Boba Fett in the Clone Wars series. In Rebels there are some episodes featuring retired clones, 15 years after ROTS. They look like old-ish men (late 50s or early 60s), though they're chronologically about 29. Zoran fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:13
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Vintersorg posted:I just go through the 2 or 3 episodes introducing Boba Fett in the Clone Wars series. 5 years after Revenge of the Sith the Clone Troopers show up as grizzled 65 year oldish veterans in that Rebels cartoon, so there's a fairly good timeline there to work with. They're not dead right away.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:15
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TheKingofSprings posted:5 years after Revenge of the Sith the Clone Troopers show up as grizzled 65 year oldish veterans in that Rebels cartoon, so there's a fairly good timeline there to work with. Rebels takes place a bit less than 15 years after Revenge of the Sith.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:15
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Bongo Bill posted:Rebels takes place a bit less than 15 years after Revenge of the Sith. I did not know that, whoops.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:16
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People weren't taking the piss tho - this show is really loving good.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:19
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Bongo Bill posted:The reason is because, as art as in life, evil does not always wear black armor and delight in the suffering of innocents. And again I remind you that having an evil enemy does not make a character good. Interesting. Alternative hypothesis: George Lucas made a movie with obvious moral sides and you're a grasping idiot with a ridiculous headcanon. What Man Can Say quote:
1. Not actually true 2. If they had freed Shmi by force and ignored the complications you'd be pontificating that they are cultural imperialists or something who use violence to get what they want 3. Not actually shown in the movies or apparently accurate 4. They were pretty incompetent for sending Anakin to be with Padme and not noticing his breakdown right in front of their face. I won't dispute that. Incompetence isn't evil. It is just the writing. 5. Not actually true 6. A government run by a dictator and they only plan to remove him if he does not give up his powers when he is legally obligated to 7. His father the mass murderer, who they already tried and failed to turn back to the light, more machine now than man, twisted and evil
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Jan 24, 2016 01:19
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Vintersorg posted:People weren't taking the piss tho - this show is really loving good. It seems like every Star Wars TV show in the 2000s has been good.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:23
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Tezzor, does it take a lot of effort to be as dense as you are?
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Jan 24, 2016 01:27
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Tezzor posted:Interesting. Alternative hypothesis: George Lucas made a movie with obvious moral sides and you're a grasping idiot with a ridiculous headcanon. What Man Can Say  Pictured: a lovely dog made badly by a moron.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:27
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cargohills posted:Tezzor, does it take a lot of effort to be as dense as you are? 
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Jan 24, 2016 01:30
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Tezzor posted:I will say in all sincerity that this thread has so far made me regard one scene in the prequels more favorably: The scene in which Palpatine tells the Senate that the Jedi were really the bad guys and they all totally buy it while he looks and sounds like a terrifying monster who is yelling about being dictator for life. I did not believe that scene at all. No way anyone could be that stupid. It turns out that at least several people are that stupid. Unfortunately, many people are that gullible and easily led by their base instincts. And we're not even in a war. It seems you understand neither Star Wars nor reality. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:34
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Jan 24, 2016 01:35
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Going back to sci-fi from the pulps, if you look at, say, Galactic Patrol and contrast how it treats the Boskonians to how the prequels treat the droid army, you can see a world of difference. The Star Wars movies as a whole have a lot more focus on the villains as people than genre cinema, or genre fiction more generally, does. You can trace this to the whole Apollo/Dionysus notion, which requires accepting both the rational and emotional. So in The Force Awakens, what we see is that the Rebels failed to acknowledge and incorporate the Empire, and that Luke failed to acknowledge and incorporate the dark. So this produces yet another Star War, but at the same time, the movie appears to endorse the idea of permanently annihilating the pesky, untidy parts of the personality. This is probably not what will actually be what is endorsed in the end, but the fanbase is taking away the idea that the goal is to slaughter the First Order rather than reintegrate them.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
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Jan 24, 2016 01:37
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Oh, right.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:39
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Bongo Bill posted:Bad things the Jedi do include: being "ambassadors" whose purpose is to intimidate the other party; freeing the bare minimum number of slaves because of political complications; brainwashing children; repressing a dude so hard over the course of ten years that he has a nervous breakdown trying to live up to their expectations, then not being able to help him deal with that or even much noticing that it's happening; being huge robo-racists all the time; plotting to overthrow the government they swore to protect; and telling Luke to murder his father. Eh, I dunno about some of these. quote:freeing the bare minimum number of slaves because of political complications Realistically, what are they supposed to do about slavery? Start a slave insurrection? quote:brainwashing children Maybe? I don't know what else they're to do though. Someone strong in the Force without guidance is likely to use it poorly. It sucks that they get taken away from their parents but it seems like the alternatitve is far worse. This one is hard as there's no real world parallel we can draw. Best case scenario is that the Force doesn't exist at all in Star Wars. It leads to more bad than good. quote:plotting to overthrow the government they swore to protect Is there something inherently wrong with overthrowing a government if it's under the thumb of someone Evil? The Jedi swore to uphold the Republic, not an Empire run by a Sith. What were they supposed to do? It seems like some of you want the Jedi to be pacifist to be truly Moral and Good which is a perfectly OK view to have but that'd make for boring movies.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:40
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Cnut the Great posted:http://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-on-the-lost-missions-yoda-arc Couple of severe errors you made here, OP. This is not the "indisputable proof that I'm wrong" that you think it is. That Jedi learn through being in a war that war is bad is neither an particularly deep insight or proof Jedi who fight in that war are bad. I don't dispute the idea that Lucas intended the old Jedi to be "flawed," he just did an incompetent job at it. If the Jedi had not fought in the war: Palpatine would still have his clone army, there would still be a giant war, more clones would have died, the war would have lasted longer because Grievous would still be alive, Palpatine would still attempt to become dictator for life, and still would have killed all of them if they tried to prevent him from being dictator for life, Anakin's mom would still be killed, and Anakin would probably still turn to the dark side as falling in love with, impregnating, and having visions of the death of Padme are all things that happen prior to or independently of the Jedi involvement in the war. When you start crying about "conspiracies" you should know you sound like a buffoon. Please keep all these points in minds for the future.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:43
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Tezzor posted:Couple of severe errors you made here, OP. What do you mean when you call people OP?
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Jan 24, 2016 01:44
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Yaws posted:Eh, I dunno about some of these. Actually, someone strong in the Force without guidance is likely to become really talented at ordinary tasks but never move on to telepathy or telekinesis, going by the movies. The Jedi had already lost, but that their response to that situation was "We need to kill Palpatine and establish a Jedi dictatorship" is a sign that they had lost the way, because they could no longer trust the institutions of the Republic but had nothing to replace them beyond simply ordering people around.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:46
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Yaws posted:Realistically, what are they supposed to do about slavery? Start a slave insurrection? What the Jedi Order does about the huttocracy on Tatooine in The Phantom Menace is presented as a contrast to what Luke did about it in the film it's a sequel to. Realistically, what they should do about slavery is avoid creating a situation where any attempt to do something about slavery would be seen as an act of war. The problems with the Jedi had already taken root by the start of the film, of course. That's part of what makes it a tragedy. They can't do the right thing. Yaws posted:Maybe? I don't know what else they're to do though. Someone strong in the Force without guidance is likely to use it poorly. It sucks that they get taken away from their parents but it seems like the alternatitve is far worse. This one is hard as there's no real world parallel we can draw. Best case scenario is that the Force doesn't exist at all in Star Wars. It leads to more bad than good. They might just... teach them, rather than indoctrinate them into their weird cult. Every character in canon who used their psychic powers to become a hosed up supervillain had a reason for doing so besides just knowing how to use the Force, contrary to some fans' reading. Yaws posted:Is there something inherently wrong with overthrowing a government if it's under the thumb of someone Evil? The Jedi swore to uphold the Republic, not an Empire run by a Sith. What were they supposed to do? It's been said a lot recently, but at the time they made their plot, they did not know that Chancellor Palpatine was secretly Darth Sidious. Yaws posted:It seems like some of you want the Jedi to be pacifist to be truly Moral and Good which is a perfectly OK view to have but that'd make for boring movies. I have no desires. I was merely pointing out that they are not perfectly moral and good, and that it is obvious that they are not, and that the fact that they are not is not a problem with the films.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:48
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There's some pretty dark poo poo in The Clone Wars show https://fat.gfycat.com/DearestUnfoldedBass.webm
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Jan 24, 2016 01:51
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teagone posted:There's some pretty dark poo poo in The Clone Wars show aotc is this dark too yeah. Jesus that looks pretty good I should watch that.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:55
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Found the gfycat of Ahsoka owning Mandalorians https://fat.gfycat.com/ComplexFirstDragon.webm
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Jan 24, 2016 01:55
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Prolonged Priapism posted:If you don't buy Cnut's Hitler example, try the modern, watered down incarnation: Donald J Trump. Unfortunately, many people are that gullible and easily led by their base instincts. And we're not even in a war. It seems you understand neither Star Wars nor reality. The people Donald Trump and Hitler convinced people are bad are people there was pre-existing resentment and hatred towards. I do not see any evidence in these movies that the common man hates the Jedi, or should have any particular reason to hate the Jedi, who I am told for over a thousand generations were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Even with these pre-existing bigotries, Donald Trump does not advocate the army killing summarily executing all Mexicans in America no matter where they are or what they are doing, including the children. If he did this as President and told everybody that he had to because the Mexicans were all planning to overthrow the government and also they were the ones who dyed his skin red and screwed horns into his head, everybody would not believe him Tezzor fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:56
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Star Wars is a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, Star Wars is a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long viewing seem firm, canonical, obligatory to an audience: Star Wars is illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors are worn out and without sensuous power; droids which have lost their presence and now matter only as metal, no longer as droids.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:56
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teagone posted:Found the gfycat of Ahsoka owning Mandalorians rip those guys. Need to watch clone wars wow.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:59
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Tezzor posted:The people Donald Trump and Hitler convinced people are bad are people there was pre-existing resentment and hatred towards. I do not see any evidence in these movies that the common man hates the Jedi, or should have any particular reason to hate the Jedi, who I am told for over a thousand generations were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Even with these pre-existing bigotries, Donald Trump does not advocate the army killing summarily executing all Mexicans in America no matter where they are or what they are doing, including the children. If he did this as President and told everybody that he had to because the Mexicans were all planning to overthrow the government and also they were the ones who died his skin red and screwed horns into his head, everybody would not believe him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fkMohNyx0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHit_vQ1f7Q No resentment here.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:00
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euphronius posted:rip those guys. I've only seen clips but it seems pretty good. And Darth Maul's back and cool in it.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:01
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Effectronica posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fkMohNyx0M The evil lizard man who is the supreme military commander of the enemy forces who thinks Jedi are scum for no delineated reason, and an evil red and black Sith with horns and dark magic who wants revenge against the Jedi for some unclear slight, probably destroying their evil cult many centuries previously: The Common Man, With Motivations For Hating The Jedi We Can Understand Tezzor fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:04
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Bongo Bill posted:They can't do the right thing quote:They might just... teach them, rather than indoctrinate them into their weird cult. Every character in canon who used their psychic powers to become a hosed up supervillain had a reason for doing so besides just knowing how to use the Force, contrary to some fans' reading quote:It's been said a lot recently, but at the time they made their plot, they did not know that Chancellor Palpatine was secretly Darth Sidious quote:I have no desires. I was merely pointing out that they are not perfectly moral and good, and that it is obvious that they are not, and that the fact that they are not is not a problem with the films.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:06
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StepDadJeff posted:Star Wars is a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, Star Wars is a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long viewing seem firm, canonical, obligatory to an audience: Star Wars is illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors are worn out and without sensuous power; droids which have lost their presence and now matter only as metal, no longer as droids. Wow please check your privilege with the obscurantism. Tezzor is like someone trying to build something complex with four blocks. Someone who has many more and more nuanced blocks has made something complex and interesting; when Tezzor tries to make something like it he says "what the gently caress are you talking about, this looks nothing like what you say!"
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Jan 24, 2016 02:08
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Yaws posted:I've always been under the impression that a Force user without strong guidance and indoctrination was going to fall. The darkside is portrayed as a powerful drug used by the weak. How is this portrayed? The only people we see using the dark side are Maul, Dooku, Vader, the Emperor, Luke, and Mace Windu, all of whom are very strong and get stronger when they tap into the dark side of the force.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:09
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euphronius posted:rip those guys. The show starts off middling/mediocre. It gets really good when Ahsoka has her wardrobe change, which happens about midway through Season 3. From then on it's pretty solid. I found myself skipping Padme centric episodes though.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:09
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Mechafunkzilla posted:How is this portrayed? The only people we see using the dark side are Maul, Dooku, Vader, the Emperor, Luke, and Mace Windu, all of whom are very strong and get stronger when they tap into the dark side of the force. When does Mace do it?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:10
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Tezzor posted:The evil lizard man who is the supreme military commander of the enemy forces who thinks Jedi are scum for no delineated reason, and an evil red and black Sith with horns and dark magic who wants revenge against the Jedi for some unclear slight, probably destroying their evil cult many centuries previously: The Common Man, With Motivations For Hating The Jedi We Can Understand Darth maul doesn't have dark magic actually, qui gonn says he is well trained in the ways of the Jedi. He doesn't do anything with the force that Jedi don't do.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:10
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