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TheKingofSprings posted:When does Mace do it? Think about what the dark side really means.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:11
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Tezzor posted:The evil lizard man who is the supreme military commander of the enemy forces who thinks Jedi are scum for no delineated reason, and an evil red and black Sith with horns and dark magic who wants revenge against the Jedi for some unclear slight, probably destroying their evil cult many centuries previously: The Common Man, With Motivations For Hating The Jedi We Can Understand It took you at least two tries to write a post where you do a half-assed job of dodging someone contradicting you. That's pitiful and you should make aaliyah to GBS instead of posting further in this thread.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:12
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TheKingofSprings posted:When does Mace do it? He intends to kill Palpatine, which is Star Wars parlance for "dark side". "I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon, strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete" etc etc.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:13
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Effectronica posted:Going back to sci-fi from the pulps, if you look at, say, Galactic Patrol and contrast how it treats the Boskonians to how the prequels treat the droid army, you can see a world of difference. The Star Wars movies as a whole have a lot more focus on the villains as people than genre cinema, or genre fiction more generally, does. You can trace this to the whole Apollo/Dionysus notion, which requires accepting both the rational and emotional. So in The Force Awakens, what we see is that the Rebels failed to acknowledge and incorporate the Empire, and that Luke failed to acknowledge and incorporate the dark. So this produces yet another Star War, but at the same time, the movie appears to endorse the idea of permanently annihilating the pesky, untidy parts of the personality. This is probably not what will actually be what is endorsed in the end, but the fanbase is taking away the idea that the goal is to slaughter the First Order rather than reintegrate them. I agree with all of this. It makes me think - If Kylo does get a redemption arc, and there's a team up (against Snoke, presumably), is the answer to destroy him? He's presented in TFA as a persuasive liar. If the final integration (Republic/Resistance/First Order) happens is the answer to leave him alive, but everyone just stops listening to him? That would be pretty cool. If he has to die you could do it like Saruman in LotR, and have an abused Hux turn on him. Tezzor posted:The people Donald Trump and Hitler convinced people are bad are people there was pre-existing resentment and hatred towards. I do not see any evidence in these movies that the common man hates the Jedi, or should have any particular reason to hate the Jedi, who I am told for over a thousand generations were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Even with these pre-existing bigotries, Donald Trump does not advocate the army killing summarily executing all Mexicans in America no matter where they are or what they are doing, including the children. If he did this as President and told everybody that he had to because the Mexicans were all planning to overthrow the government and also they were the ones who died his skin red and screwed horns into his head, everybody would not believe him. The Jedi took on the role of military command. Their power and influence was thereby increased. Palpatine says the military tried to depose him as the war ended, they were afraid of losing their newfound power. Military coups happen. You don't have to "hate the military" to believe that the leadership could revolt in such a way. In fact, the common soldiers would all tell the civilians the same story about how the Jedi turned on them! It's not particularly elegant or intricate storytelling, but it makes internal sense. The people who don't buy it (or know it's a lie) become the Rebellion. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Feb 18, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:13
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Mechafunkzilla posted:He intends to kill Palpatine, which is Star Wars parlance for "dark side". "I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon, strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete" etc etc. That's reasonable, seems like there aren't too many other options available when a guy can shoot lightning from his hands though, that's a little hard to disarm...without, y'know, actually disarming him. Actually, what was Luke's gameplan if Vader didn't throw Palpatine down the reactor shaft when he confronted him?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:17
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Prolonged Priapism posted:As an aside, forcibly and immediately deporting ~11 million people from the US would indeed be a death sentence to a substantial fraction of them, even if they're not being shot on sight. Not that the US doesn't already fund doing that in the country immediately south.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:18
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TheKingofSprings posted:That's reasonable, seems like there aren't too many other options available when a guy can shoot lightning from his hands though, that's a little hard to disarm...without, y'know, actually disarming him. Luke was ready to die. Him killing the Emperor had no bearing on the fleet blowing up the Death Star II.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:18
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TheKingofSprings posted:
Die.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:21
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Mechafunkzilla posted:He intends to kill Palpatine, which is Star Wars parlance for "dark side". "I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon, strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete" etc etc. Actually wait, now that I'm thinking about this again, Yoda and Obi-Wan were encouraging him to kill Vader. Were they on the dark side when they did that? Mechafunkzilla posted:Luke was ready to die. Him killing the Emperor had no bearing on the fleet blowing up the Death Star II. Does that mean any of the people in the fleet about to blow up the Death Star II and kill thousands of people were also headed to the Dark Side then? Or is it the mindset you have when you kill that defines whether or not you're on the Dark Side then?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:22
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I think that Luke's initial belief was that he could provoke the Emperor into attacking him.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:23
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Yaws posted:Eh, I dunno about some of these. They're supposed to be a force for justice in the galaxy, right? Why the Hell not? At least TRY to do something instead of saying "welp, that's not our jurisdiction." Of course it's also not so much what they're supposed to do now as the fact that they let it get to this state in the first place. Slaves in the Outer Rim territories, merchant princes with their own private armies, droid abuse everywhere, clearly the Republic has let a lot of problems go unaddressed. This is traditionally how tragedy works. The good guys are brought down by their own flaws, not just because other people are bastards.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:25
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TheKingofSprings posted:Actually wait, now that I'm thinking about this again, Yoda and Obi-Wan were encouraging him to kill Vader. Were they on the dark side when they did that? Yoda and Obi-Wan's philosophy is that it's okay to kill as long as you do so without emotion. Which is kind of messed up. But basically, there's a lot in the films -- even the OT -- that suggests the "dark side" distinction is kind of bullshit.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:26
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TheKingofSprings posted:Actually wait, now that I'm thinking about this again, Yoda and Obi-Wan were encouraging him to kill Vader. Were they on the dark side when they did that? No offense but you seem to be trying to think about this in the way the game kotor determines your side of the force.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:28
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SHISHKABOB posted:No offense but you seem to be trying to think about this in the way the game kotor determines your side of the force. Speaking of which I tried playing KOTOR II recently because it was recommended to me. Early on I got "Dark Side points" for using sarcastic dialogue options, which gave me a good laugh. Shortly thereafter I uninstalled it because it was super boring.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:30
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TheKingofSprings posted:
I'd say it's the mindset. If Luke were the real hero who transcended the division of the light/dark side he'd have struck down Palpatine without malice out of compassion and solidarity with the rebels. As it is he's a simple lad and can't take that ethical leap and it's left to Vader to do the dirty work with a clean conscience
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Jan 24, 2016 02:30
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A Steampunk Gent posted:I'd say it's the mindset. If Luke were the real hero who transcended the division of the light/dark side he'd have struck down Palpatine without malice out of compassion and solidarity with the rebels. As it is he's a simple lad and can't take that ethical leap and it's left to Vader to do the dirty work with a clean conscience People may also be forgetting that Luke does grab his lightsaber and try to kill the Emperor (in anger!) once his sister is mentioned, Vader just blocks him.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:32
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TheKingofSprings posted:Actually wait, now that I'm thinking about this again, Yoda and Obi-Wan were encouraging him to kill Vader. Were they on the dark side when they did that? There's two ideas - that Yoda and Obi-Wan are advocating this, and are wrong to do so, and Luke finds the third/middle way in defiance of them. Or, since they never explicitly say he needs to kill him, that they were disappointed in Luke's jump to that conclusion, but could not tell him that the answer was compassion - he had to find out for himself, or fail. TheKingofSprings posted:Does that mean any of the people in the fleet about to blow up the Death Star II and kill thousands of people were also headed to the Dark Side then? Or is it the mindset you have when you kill that defines whether or not you're on the Dark Side then? This is true. It's like in Bushido, you can kill an enemy, but only as an avatar of the state, or of justice. If your enemy spits on you, making you angry at him, killing him would be immoral - you've let it become personal. But yes, sometimes doing battle is the right thing to do.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:34
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Mechafunkzilla posted:People may also be forgetting that Luke does grab his lightsaber and try to kill the Emperor (in anger!) once his sister is mentioned, Vader just blocks him. No he goes crazy on vader. Vader mentions Leia. Or Im not remembering.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:34
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euphronius posted:No he goes crazy on vader. Vader mentions Leia. Oh, yeah, you're right about who mentions Leia -- but Luke still does try to kill the Emperor when he's being taunted. He does exactly what the Emperor tells him to do up until the point where he spares Vader. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIJFDGCg_sc Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:37
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Prolonged Priapism posted:There's two ideas - that Yoda and Obi-Wan are advocating this, and are wrong to do so, and Luke finds the third/middle way in defiance of them. Or, since they never explicitly say he needs to kill him, that they were disappointed in Luke's jump to that conclusion, but could not tell him that the answer was compassion - he had to find out for himself, or fail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8uDQuWlnww&t=120s Obi-Wan flat out says it's over if Luke can't kill Vader so he at least is advocating it.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:39
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You're right. Luke initially tried to kill Palpatine after Palps reveals that the whole setup was a trap, that the fleet is doomed, and that the shield generator is too well defended to be taken out. All his friends will die, and it was always the plan to have him here to watch it, impotently. It's at this moment that Luke turns away in mock stoic acceptance, then whirls around, Force grabs his saber, and tried to chop him in half. It was clearly done in anger. He hides from Vader midway through their fight, and freaks out on him when he senses the truth about Leia and suggests turning her instead. It's after disarming Vader that he pulls back and decides he's done fighting once and for all.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:39
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Prolonged Priapism posted:disarming Vader 
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Jan 24, 2016 02:41
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Yaws posted:What do you mean when you call people OP? Tezzor resorts to claims of argument imbalance -- that Cnut the Great is Over-Powered (OP) -- when his arguments are repeatedly destroyed.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:45
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If The Force Awakens was a prequel movie whether or not Finn and Rey involve themselves in the plot makes no difference because a character behind the scenes is directing everything, so if they had just stayed home there would be no difference in the major events of the story
Tezzor fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:46
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TheKingofSprings posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8uDQuWlnww&t=120s The alternate interpretation would be that Obi-Wan is saying that the Emperor has already won if that's all Luke can think to do. He's disappointed that Luke instinctively frames "face Darth Vader" as "kill your father." Luke thinks the question is: "are you ready to kill your father, yes/no?" but the answer is to reject the form of the question: "mu." The guru (Obi-Wan) can't reveal that, though. Luke has to learn it himself.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:47
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Prolonged Priapism posted:The alternate interpretation would be that Obi-Wan is saying that the Emperor has already won if that's all Luke can think to do. He's disappointed that Luke instinctively frames "face Darth Vader" as "kill your father." Luke thinks the question is: "are you ready to kill your father, yes/no?" but the answer is to reject the form of the question: "mu." The guru (Obi-Wan) can't reveal that, though. Luke has to learn it himself. I also like that Obi-Wan's advice is for Luke to "bury his feelings deep down." Sounds healthy! Of course, Luke rejects this, and it's his emotions that allow him to overcome and eventually redeem Vader. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:49
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TheKingofSprings posted:And Darth Maul's back and cool in it. Actually he's still not cool sorry. However his homeworld is ooper dooper spooky.  edit: Savage Oppress 
turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:50
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Tezzor posted:If The Force Awakens was a prequel movie the whether or not Finn and Rey involve themselves in the plot makes no difference because a character behind the scenes is directing everything, so if they had just stayed home there would be no difference in the major events of the story How precisely is Palpatine supposed to engineer his ascension to the throne, hm? You think he just strolls into the Senate and says "nah, this ain't doin' it for me"? Are you now literally arguing against the archetype of the villain with a grand master plan?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:51
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I think it is probably a good idea to bury your feelings deep down, for the duration of your confrontation with two dark wizards who can and do access sensitive information by reading your emotions
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Jan 24, 2016 02:53
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I also like that Obi-Wan's advice is for Luke to "bury his feelings deep down." Sounds healthy! Yeah personally I think Obi-Wan is advocating killing. He wants Luke to become the emotionless avatar of justice (killing Vader and the Emperor), unlike him and his failure in his fight with Anakin, where he won but was too emotional to finish the job. He doesn't consider that he could have nursed Anakin back to health, and maybe redeemed him. "[Your feelings] do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor." Or, what Obi-Wan doesn't consider, Luke could master his feelings and use them for good, which is what he does.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:56
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Tezzor posted:I think it is probably a good idea to bury your feelings deep down, for the duration of your confrontation with two dark wizards who can and do access sensitive information by reading your emotions Luke should have done this, then things wouldn't have ended so horribly for everyone. Hmm wait.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:56
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Tezzor posted:I think it is probably a good idea to bury your feelings deep down, for the duration of your confrontation with two dark wizards who can and do access sensitive information by reading your emotions Can't say I'm surprised that this is what you took away from that. The two posters above me get it. Remember, Obi-Wan is the guy who basically tries to radicalize Luke by purposefully getting killed by Vader right in front of him. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:58
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turtlecrunch posted:Actually he's still not cool sorry. I'm sorry dude he gets a really cool lightsaber, you're wrong
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Jan 24, 2016 03:01
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I think the reason I hate the prequel movies so much is that if you assume the events in them actually happened it makes the actions of characters in the OT sillier and less comprehensible. Vader is obvious, but Obi-Wan is a big one, too. Obi-Wan talking wistfully about how "Annie was a good friend" ceases to make any sense. I would not look back on my relationship with Anakin Skywalker with any fondness. I would think about him more like the fictional roommate I had in college who I had some fun times with but was always kind of an rear end in a top hat who lied to me all the time, who later became a Neo-Nazi, caved in his girlfriend's head with a blender, and is doing life upstate. If I thought about him at all 20 years later I would think "what a piece of poo poo that guy was" and not "Mikey was a good friend."
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Jan 24, 2016 03:12
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm sorry dude he gets a really cool lightsaber, you're wrong Hmmm you make a convincing argument
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Jan 24, 2016 03:14
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Obi-Wan has two friends. One of them owns a diner and they like to have conversations about how stupid droids are, in front of the droid staff. The other is Anakin. Obi-Wan does not have good friends.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:18
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Tezzor posted:I think the reason I hate the prequel movies so much is that if you assume the events in them actually happened it makes the actions of characters in the OT sillier and less comprehensible. Vader is obvious, but Obi-Wan is a big one, too. Obi-Wan talking wistfully about how "Annie was a good friend" ceases to make any sense. I would not look back on my relationship with Anakin Skywalker with any fondness. I would think about him more like the fictional roommate I had in college who I had some fun times with but was always kind of an rear end in a top hat who lied to me all the time, who later became a Neo-Nazi, caved in his girlfriend's head with a blender, and is doing life upstate. If I thought about him at all 20 years later I would think "what a piece of poo poo that guy was" and not "Mikey was a good friend." The PT also forces you to think of Hayden Christiansin in the Vader suit. And then the SE puts him RotJ as a painful reminder of the prequels. That suit must help Anakin emote because James Earl Jones acts circles around Hayden.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:20
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Tezzor posted:I think the reason I hate the prequel movies so much is that if you assume the events in them actually happened it makes the actions of characters in the OT sillier and less comprehensible. Vader is obvious, but Obi-Wan is a big one, too. Obi-Wan talking wistfully about how "Annie was a good friend" ceases to make any sense. I would not look back on my relationship with Anakin Skywalker with any fondness. I would think about him more like the fictional roommate I had in college who I had some fun times with but was always kind of an rear end in a top hat who lied to me all the time, who later became a Neo-Nazi, caved in his girlfriend's head with a blender, and is doing life upstate. If I thought about him at all 20 years later I would think "what a piece of poo poo that guy was" and not "Mikey was a good friend." This is a much, much better post than you've been making so thanks for that. You're actually thinking about why you dislike the films rather than accusing people who enjoyed them of being insincere. Personally, I found the subtext of Obi-Wan's guilt-borne delusion to be there even without the prequels. He is, after all, someone who "buries his feelings deep down", to the point that he can barely reconcile Vader and Anakin being the same person.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:20
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I just figured something out, the cut between Obi-Wan saying "they could be made to serve the Emperor" and the majestic establishing shot of the Rebel Fleet (which we're seeing for the first time) always sort of bothered me. The music swells from ambivalent horns to pompous Rebel March. It's cool looking (and sounding), but I always felt some unease. It's because "they could be made to serve the Emperor" applies just as well to the fleet, which is in the process of executing the Emperor's plan and falling in to his trap! It's a neat cut.Tezzor posted:I think the reason I hate the prequel movies so much is that if you assume the events in them actually happened it makes the actions of characters in the OT sillier and less comprehensible. Vader is obvious, but Obi-Wan is a big one, too. Obi-Wan talking wistfully about how "Annie was a good friend" ceases to make any sense. I would not look back on my relationship with Anakin Skywalker with any fondness. I would think about him more like the fictional roommate I had in college who I had some fun times with but was always kind of an rear end in a top hat who lied to me all the time, who later became a Neo-Nazi, caved in his girlfriend's head with a blender, and is doing life upstate. If I thought about him at all 20 years later I would think "what a piece of poo poo that guy was" and not "Mikey was a good friend." You're missing the context of their relationship. Obi-Wan basically adopted Anakin at age 9. He's his surrogate father for ten or twelve years. Anakin is rebellious, but mostly tries to live up to Obi-Wan's expectations. He is a very gifted student and in many ways is beyond his teacher. They save each other's lives multiple times. Parents don't usually think of their wayward children as "pieces of poo poo." They say things like "I wish I could have helped him more. He was such a good kid, he could be so kind. I wish I could go back and do a better job, see the signs earlier, get him help. For his victims, and for him. I'm so sorry." They feel guilt and sorrow over what they feel was their responsibility, not hatred for a person they think they failed. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 03:22
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Mechafunkzilla posted:that he can barely reconcile Vader and Anakin being the same person. Can you blame him.
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