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Crowsbeak posted:Also why should the US remove our forces in Guam? Its nowhere even close to loving China. I swear its like Chomsky and Sedan were arguing the USA give up the entire western pacific to China. It's not 'like' anything, that's exactly what they're arguing
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Jan 23, 2016 05:08
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The SEF is technically a private company bankrolled by the government of Taiwan to engage in economic talks they won't engage in through official government channels. That's not really a joint venture between the PRC and Taiwan, especially since the agreements the SEF makes aren't binding on anyone in Taiwan but themselves.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:14
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Jaramin posted:The SEF is technically a private company bankrolled by the government of Taiwan to engage in economic talks they won't engage in through official government channels. That's not really a joint venture between the PRC and Taiwan, especially since the agreements the SEF makes aren't binding on anyone in Taiwan but themselves. SEF and ARATS are technically private institutions that are run by government officials from the Red and Black fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 05:28
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Crowsbeak posted:Didn't Orwell have an essay bemoaning a certain type of lefty that instinctively backed autocrats over democracies? The OP's namesake was also an unapologetic shill for asian autocracy up to and including denying the Cambodian genocide so this really shouldn't surprise us
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Jan 23, 2016 05:30
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Fojar38 posted:The OP's namesake was also an unapologetic shill for asian autocracy up to and including denying the Cambodian genocide so this really shouldn't surprise us I always forget that Chomsky went to bat for the Khmer Rogue. Maybe if I wrote apologist literature for Daesh I could become an esteemed far lefty.
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Jan 23, 2016 05:45
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Chomskyan posted:No. Do your own research and then come back to me when you have an actual grasp of Taiwan-China relations. One of the websites you linked is in Mandarin and I don't read it very well. I don't think you have a clue what these organizations do. Talking about China invading Taiwan isn't a derail of your thread about a military base on Okinawa because one of the reasons the US has a military base on Okinawa is to deter China from invading Taiwan. Chomskyan posted:SEF and ARATS are technically private institutions that are run by government officials from the PRC and the DPRC respectively DPRC is what they'll call the ROC after their "integration". JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 07:29
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JeffersonClay posted:The half of Taiwan that doesn't view China as a hostile state view them as hostile rebels. You think hardliners who don't recognize that China is a legitimate country in its own right would be willing to enter into a confederation with the enemy? It's a fantasy. JeffersonClay posted:Talking about China invading Taiwan isn't a derail of your thread about a military base on Okinawa because one of the reasons the US has a military base on Okinawa is to deter China from invading Taiwan.
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Jan 23, 2016 09:07
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Crowsbeak posted:I always forget that Chomsky went to bat for the Khmer Rogue. Maybe if I wrote apologist literature for Daesh I could become an esteemed far lefty. Your entire schtick so far has been to demand the US stand down/remove itself from the area, that it's bad its' there in the first place. The reason I got you to think about US artificial islands is to get it through your thick head that China is already breaching international norms and aggravating its neighbors, that it is already failing to adhere to standards it is supposed to abide by, and that had the US done the same, you would be more than happy to hypocritically turn around on the issue. I'd bet my left nut you wouldn't start making quibbles about EEZ or territorial waters. That you expect China to legitimately engage in an arms deescalation, after years and years of telling its own people how strong China has become and needs to be, is nothing short of naive - or it would be naive, if you actually thought it would happen. My suspicion is that you're not actually that opposed to imperialism and expansionism when performed by non-Western nations, and that you're happy to dismiss and hand-wave away any concerns there, for the sole purpose of hating on Amerikkka. The bases are gonna stay on Okinawa so long as Tokyo needs them there, which is probably going to be a long time, because I can't imagine even a country like Japan being able to field a navy comparable to China. rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 09:23
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Crowsbeak posted:I always forget that Chomsky went to bat for the Khmer Rogue. Maybe if I wrote apologist literature for Daesh I could become an esteemed far lefty. You know, this is the ideal time to stake out that position so you can say you supported ISIS before it was cool, man. It's not even ironic; in this very sub forum we had earnest idiots arguing that the Somali pirates were really freedom fighters avenging ecological damage caused by western interests. I'm sure Chomsky was at least a fellow traveler in that parade, if not the Crimson bedecked ringleader.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:20
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Pauline Kael posted:It's not even ironic; in this very sub forum we had earnest idiots arguing that the Somali pirates were really freedom fighters avenging ecological damage caused by western interests. *Admittedly Yemeni/Iranian/Spanish, so only partly western.
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Jan 23, 2016 17:27
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You sure it's not something more along the line of "Somali pirates were the result of competition from foreign vessels* illegally fishing in Somalia waters, which took away the only honest source of work for former-farmers-turned-fishermen in a drought-ridden country"? If changing history to make your previous wrong opinion seem a little less wrong then sure, it's only 85% stupid now instead of 100%
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Jan 23, 2016 18:03
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Pauline Kael posted:If changing history to make your previous wrong opinion seem a little less wrong then sure, it's only 85% stupid now instead of 100% Perhaps you should start a thread to argue about Somali pirates, and then I can lay odds on how many "primitive, violent Africans" stereotypes you will allude to.
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Jan 23, 2016 18:12
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SedanChair posted:Perhaps you should start a thread to argue about Somali pirates, and then I can lay odds on how many "primitive, violent Africans" stereotypes you will allude to. Right, I'm guessing you were one of the clown princes arguing that the Pirates were actually the good guys. Of course you were, since you live the rest of your life in upsidedown land. Go on, own it.
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Jan 23, 2016 18:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You sure it's not something more along the line of "Somali pirates were the result of competition from foreign vessels* illegally fishing in Somalia waters, which took away the only honest source of work for former-farmers-turned-fishermen in a drought-ridden country"? Now that you change it to the actual argument people were making I actually remember that thread. That was such a huge misrepresentation of the actual argument. I suppose there's never been much call for accuracy when smearing leftists though.
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Jan 23, 2016 18:42
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Pauline Kael posted:Right, I'm guessing you were one of the clown princes arguing that the Pirates were actually the good guys. Of course you were, since you live the rest of your life in upsidedown land. Go on, own it. Life is very rarely about THE GOOD GUYS vs THE BAD GUYS. Even terrible individuals who do terrible things could have completely legitimate reasons why things panned out into such acts. Good people do terrible things. Sometimes bad people fight on the right side of history. Trying to shoehorn everything into such a black and white view is juvenile. Though this topic DOES remind me of a wonderful episode of the Dollop: The Battle of Brisbane US and Australian allies, despite there being a very clear and present danger of Imperial Japan, still manage let things go to hell for no good reason.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You sure it's not something more along the line of "Somali pirates were the result of competition from foreign vessels* illegally fishing in Somalia waters, which took away the only honest source of work for former-farmers-turned-fishermen in a drought-ridden country"? Still a pretty absurd argument to make given that: A) As you mentioned the vessels illegally fishing there were almost entirely not Western, primarily originating from neighboring countries. Condemnations of India/Yemen/Iran would be a bit more appropriate. B) A lot of people in Somalia found things to do that don't involve shooting at people and extorting ransom money. Being a hostage-taker/bandit is not actually a heroic thing to do, even when things go to poo poo. C) From the start the warlords were involved and I don't think they actually gave a flying gently caress about illegal fishing. D) The vessels were/are going there to fish illegally because fish stocks remain in good shape. Possibly because they bounced up after things went to poo poo and fewer fishing operations were in the area.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:16
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Warbadger posted:Still a pretty absurd argument to make given that: Warbadger posted:B) A lot of people in Somalia found things to do that don't involve shooting at people and extorting ransom money. Being a hostage-taker/bandit is not actually a heroic thing to do, even when things go to poo poo. Warbadger posted:D) The vessels were/are going there to fish illegally because fish stocks remain in good shape. Possibly because they bounced up after things went to poo poo and fewer fishing operations were in the area.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:44
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Fojar38 posted:Didn't the OP post this exact same thread like 6 months ago Oh wow, I thought I remembered this thread topic but I didn't realise it's an actual carbon copy. Good job OP for advancing thread-bumping technology in 2016.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:58
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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If I were a PRC military strategist, I would be trying to foment treason in areas of the Pacific that the US is charged with defending.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:05
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SedanChair posted:Perhaps you should start a thread to argue about Somali pirates, and then I can lay odds on how many "primitive, violent Africans" stereotypes you will allude to. Yes remind me how attacking cruise ships is a legitimate action against "imperialist" aggression.
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Jan 23, 2016 22:03
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes remind me how attacking cruise ships is a legitimate action against "imperialist" aggression. Can you try out for Mario with that leap?
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Jan 23, 2016 22:10
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Maoist Pussy posted:If I were a PRC military strategist, I would be trying to foment treason in areas of the Pacific that the US is charged with defending. Well, considering tenured faculty at the US Navy War College are apparantly advocating a more or less full and unilateral withdrawal from the western Pacific, I don't think that's even necessary
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Jan 23, 2016 22:22
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icantfindaname posted:Well, considering tenured faculty at the US Navy War College are apparantly advocating a more or less full and unilateral withdrawal from the western Pacific, I don't think that's even necessary I would check that guy's finances for any unexplained large deposits.
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Jan 23, 2016 22:23
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I'd imagine the naval war college appreciates having someone who will give minority viewpoints a serious treatment, if only so they can feel more confident that they are fully informed when rejecting them.
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Jan 23, 2016 23:48
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Somebody has to write the rough policy for incredibly stupid ideas just in case they come true, like invading Canada, or building a domed city on the moon, or giving California back to Mexico.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:53
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It's interesting how much crossover there is between believing in the inscrutable Chinaman-Yellow Peril, believing that the Okinawans should be grateful for having Marines rape and murder them, and believing that Japan is a functional democracy. You'd think there'd be some divergence, but no.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:28
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Effectronica, If you want to argue that China's behavior isn't scaring the poo poo out of their neighbors and driving them towards the protection of uncle sam's ample bosom, give it your best shot. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:43
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JeffersonClay posted:If you want to argue that China's behavior isn't scaring the poo poo out of their neighbors and driving them towards the protection of uncle sam's ample bosom, give it your best shot. Who are you talking to?
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Jan 24, 2016 01:52
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Effectronica posted:Who are you talking to? The same straw man he's been talking to the entire thread.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:06
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Chomskyan posted:The same straw man he's been talking to the entire thread. Remember when you thought it was the Democratic People's Republic of China? I couldn't decide if you were letting the troll mask slip a little bit or if you were just dumb.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:21
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JeffersonClay posted:Remember when you thought it was the Democratic People's Republic of China? I couldn't decide if you were letting the troll mask slip a little bit or if you were just dumb. How does this advance the discussion? It seems that you are not interested in a frank exchange of views, and rather would engage in clumsy attempts at bullying. Good god, what an imbecilic approach!
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Jan 24, 2016 02:26
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Ya might be better of starting a thread on somali pirates, again, but I don't think you can personally begrudge people living without any safety net turning to banditry/piracy. Is It Moral To Steal A Loaf Of Bread To Feed Yourself/Your Family/Your Dog? Tune into the next D&D thread to find out.Maoist Pussy posted:If I were a PRC military strategist, I would be trying to foment treason in areas of the Pacific that the US is charged with defending. Effectronica posted:It's interesting how much crossover there is between believing in the inscrutable Chinaman-Yellow Peril, believing that the Okinawans should be grateful for having Marines rape and murder them, and believing that Japan is a functional democracy. You'd think there'd be some divergence, but no.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:42
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Effectronica posted:How does this advance the discussion? It seems that you are not interested in a frank exchange of views, and rather would engage in clumsy attempts at bullying. Good god, what an imbecilic approach! japan may be politically broken but taiwan just a week ago elected good liberal democrats in a landslide and the American military presence is required to keep them around, so oh well.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:44
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JeffersonClay posted:Remember when you thought it was the Democratic People's Republic of China? I couldn't decide if you were letting the troll mask slip a little bit or if you were just dumb. However, I don't think the mistakes I've just mentioned are really the same as yours. For one, despite being called out on your very misleading representation of Taiwanese perceptions of China, you've yet to really to really retract or amend any of your statements. For the record you said "To Taiwan, China is a hostile state who states publicly they intend annexation." which is I guess, arguably true since that's popular opinion in Taiwan. That is not however the stance of the government of Taiwan (until a new government takes over in May), nor is it the stance of the US government which officially considers Taiwan to be a part of China (there is no official US embassy in Taiwan). You might argue "well, I favor the position of the people over that of the government" in which case I completely 100% agree, but it seems sort of hypocritical coming from you, seeing as you're more than willing to disregard the opinions of the Japanese people, and particularly the opinions of Okinawans when it comes to the new base at Henoko. You also said "Taiwan itself would be unwilling to enter into any partnership or joint effort with China because that would be a tangible and significant step towards reunification with China". But as I pointed out, Taiwan and China already have de-facto diplomatic relations through SEF and ARATS, and have engaged in massive joint efforts already including a major trade agreement. Yes, it's true that formal relations won't be established because until now (or really, until May), both Taiwan and China have adamantly declared that there is only "one China" which they had both claimed belonged to them. How can you have formal diplomatic relations with what is considered rebel controlled territory? But as SEF and ARATS (and other, similar organizations) have proven, it is possible for both China and Taiwan to essentially ignore that dilemma and establish relations anyways, without recognizing the legitimacy of the other side's territorial claims. This kind of informal diplomacy is what Goldstein was calling for. Despite all this, you are far from the worst poster in this thread. You, for the most part, don't seem to be posting in bad faith (except of course, when you misrepresent my position on China, whose actions in the South China Sea I do not support). I also like the maps you've posted that show overlapping claims in the South China Sea. That was a great contribution. Also, frankly, you're kind of a treasure in this thread because you post things like "uncle sam's ample bosom" and that's just hilarious imagery. You should however, concede that you've had some pretty serious misconceptions about China and Taiwan and make a good faith attempt to educate yourself better on that issue.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:31
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There is in fact an embassy in Taiwan, they just don't call it an embassy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_in_Taiwan
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Jan 24, 2016 03:39
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rudatron posted:There is in fact an embassy in Taiwan, they just don't call it an embassy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_in_Taiwan Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:41
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rudatron posted:There is in fact an embassy in Taiwan, they just don't call it an embassy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_in_Taiwan whooooosh
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Jan 24, 2016 03:42
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Effectronica posted:How does this advance the discussion? It seems that you are not interested in a frank exchange of views, and rather would engage in clumsy attempts at bullying. Good god, what an imbecilic approach! It's remarkably effective in real life to get people, especially political pundits, what they want. How can something be effective *and* a stupid strategy?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:52
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Effectronica posted:Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron?
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Jan 24, 2016 04:07
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rudatron posted:Because the US cares more about having an embassy there than calling it one. In reality, Taiwan and China are separate countries, and China is trying to annex Taiwan. The fact that China throws a temper tantrum when people acknowledge this, and that everyone else would rather indulge it in the PRC's head-canon than worry about not, doesn't change the reality of the situation. Talking about what is 'Official' here as an excuse to argue that the US is no longer needed for the Taiwanese government is massively disingenuous. In reality, 65% of Taiwan's population, and the majority of the world, considers Taiwan to be a part of China. It has a separate government, but only 35% of the population supports the idea of becoming "The Republic of Taiwan" instead of "The Republic of China." The US, too, considers Taiwan a part of China. Thus, we don't have an embassy, because that would make Taiwan officially an independent country, and we don't have consulate because that would be provocative to no purpose. Sinophobes like to point to the 2% of the population that wishes to have a PRC-style dictatorship, some of them engaging in such absurdities as calling it "the PRC's head-canon (sic)". But they are racists, and I don't have to care what they spit up. They in any case have no power, nor ever will have the power, to force unwanted political changes on 16 million or so Taiwanese, in the name of "not indulging the PRC's head-canon (sic)".
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Jan 24, 2016 04:15
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