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BrianWilly posted:By golly, you're right, the scene would not work if we ignore the things that make the scene work. I am very pointedly not ignoring it. I am saying it's a bad element to base a scene around. If I was ignoring it, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my post, and thus we would not currently be talking about it. quote:I don't understand what you're talking about. In terms of narrative, Han's there because only he could get Finn to the base. In terms of characterization, Han is there because he's trying to save his own son. In terms of theme, his death signifies passing the mantle onto the new generation, which wouldn't work if he was a new character created for the new film. Han Solo the character has every reason to be there no matter how shallowly we read the situation. I'm obviously not talking about the plot. Who cares about the plot? In terms of characterization, it is true that Han is there because he's trying to save his son. But we don't know anything about the situation beyond that. There's nothing connecting the Han Solo character we knew from the OT to the character who appears in TFA, because all the pertinent character development relevant to the current story happened entirely off-screen. This isn't the sort of stuff you can just gloss over and still expect it to have the same impact. There is no characterization. "Loves his son" isn't characterization. I mean, it is, but it's not particularly strong characterization. Of course Han Solo loves his son. That's not a particularly compelling new insight into his character. In terms of theme, his death doesn't accomplish what you think it accomplishes, because, again, we don't actually know why Han died. We don't know what he died for. As with many things in the film, it's unclear. What mantle is he passing on to the next generation? What does Han Solo stand for in TFA? What does Rey believe Han Solo stands for? What does Han Solo mean to Rey, and how is his death connected to the new path she chooses to embark upon by the end of the film? I don't think the film gives us a strong sense--or really, any sense--of these things. quote:The entire scope of Han Solo's arcs over all his films has to do with the way he handles responsibility. The motif of an absentee father having to accept the consequences of his own negligence, facing karmic justice for the way he's lived his life, is a completely sensible capstone for Han's character. It's not something that would have worked with, say, Leia, for instance, because the whole point of her is that she's hyper-responsible. We don't actually know if Han was really negligent. We have no idea what actually happened. That's the problem. We have no idea whether he's really facing karmic justice, or if he's dying heroically trying to save a son whose descent into evil he bears no ultimate responsibility for. It's a bad capstone for Han's character because the movie makes no effort to flesh out either Han's or Kylo's characters in anything more than a superficial, perfunctory way. What we're left with is Han Solo being murdered by his son in the first and last scene they ever share together, for reasons that remain totally unclear. That's not a hard scene to write. I could write that scene. Steve2911 posted:Nah his arc in ROTJ is about being a bit player in a story he no longer cares about, wishing his friends had let him stay dead. He has a more secondary role in ROTJ, but the arc he does have is exactly what I've described. And it's actually a pretty important thing, because otherwise not a single one of the films would contain an example of a stable, healthy romantic relationship. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 15:57
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Cnut the Great posted:I am very pointedly not ignoring it. I am saying it's a bad element to base a scene around. If I was ignoring it, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my post, and thus we would not currently be talking about it. That all got cut out to make room for Oscar Isaacs and three more action scenes. You can see a tiny bit of an earlier draft left when Kylo tells Rey that she's going to be disappointed in Han in choosing him as a father figure.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:18
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Lucas had in mind that Vader was Lukes dad before 4 was made. Source: George Lucas.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:19
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euphronius posted:Lucas had in mind that Vader was Lukes dad before 4 was made. Source: George Lucas. George Lucas says a lot of poo poo.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:20
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Steve2911 posted:George Lucas says a lot of poo poo. That's the way it's always been.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:the Leia reveal is basically the worst plot twist in the entire series. (The best? Midichlorians, obviously.) obviously
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Jan 24, 2016 16:25
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Steve2911 posted:George Lucas says a lot of poo poo. Compelling case. Well that is settled.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:26
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Bongo Bill posted:It makes sense. I think it gains something and loses something. It allows the series to cash in (positively and pejoratively) on what people enjoy. But George Lucas' Star Warses are film school nerdsplorations of undergraduate-level social science and humanities dressed up as old tymey Flash Gordon serials, rather than actually being serials. Flash Gordon was never going to be able to just shoot Ming the Merciless in his stupid face and be done; "I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed/But remember, if you kill him, you'll be unemployed." When all that's left is the serial dressing, it's harder (but not impossible) to really show the consequences of these clashing ideas and ideologies. I think that's one of the big reasons they're going to run standalone movies: assuming they get past Rogue One and Han Solo, these "one shot" represent market testing for new IP. These extra movies distract from Zeno's Star Wars Paradox: in a true serial, good is only ever going to get halfway to beating evil in a given movie, while evil continues to advance. These extra movies, if successful, also provide an escape pod, if the main continuity's popularity dips.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:29
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They also spent 4 billion and need to make some of it back and prove a good positive cash flow.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Even "there is another" is better left ambiguous, since the Leia reveal is basically the worst plot twist in the entire series. If it's possible, could you expand on this? I get that it's somewhat clumsy, but it doesn't offend me all that much in a movie where Han inexplicably forgets that Lando stabbed him in the back.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:36
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Lando had no choice. The empire arrived right before they did.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:38
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Cnut the Great posted:We don't actually know if Han was really negligent. We have no idea what actually happened. That's the problem. We have no idea whether he's really facing karmic justice, or if he's dying heroically trying to save a son whose descent into evil he bears no ultimate responsibility for. It's a bad capstone for Han's character because the movie makes no effort to flesh out either Han's or Kylo's characters in anything more than a superficial, perfunctory way. What we're left with is Han Solo being murdered by his son in the first and last scene they ever share together, for reasons that remain totally unclear. That's not a hard scene to write. I could write that scene. I don't think that would actually make the scene stronger. I've heard Darth Vader described as a son's nightmare—a giant evil father figure who demands impossible things from you and tries to cut you off from your friends, and Kylo Ren is the opposite, a parent's nightmare: the fear that your child is going to go wrong someday and you'll never understand why or whether you could have done something differently. It seems pretty intentional here that neither Han nor Leia have much of an idea of what's going on in Ben's head.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:52
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IXIX posted:If it's possible, could you expand on this? I get that it's somewhat clumsy, but it doesn't offend me all that much in a movie where Han inexplicably forgets that Lando stabbed him in the back. You said it yourself. The Luke Leia reveal is awkwardly rammed into RotJ and doesn't add anything to the overall story. It sucks.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:12
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It's a lazy way to solve a love triangle born out of laziness and a refusal to listen to Harrison Ford's good advice.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:14
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Cnut the Great posted:Because it's not a good thing if the only reason a scene works is because of the shock of an iconic franchise character dying. Han Solo's character arc over the past three-and-two-thirds movies does nothing to inform the circumstances of his death or to increase its dramatic heft. From a thematic standpoint, there's almost nothing necessitating that the character Harrison Ford plays in this movie specifically be Han Solo. The drama of his death hinges entirely on events which are unknown to us, having happened off-screen and never being explained. The character in this movie is connected to the character in the previous three movies only by virtue of being labeled "Han Solo" in the script. There's no effort put into making his death have any larger meaning. The full sum of the thematic impact his death has on the larger story can be reduced to a single line in a script that says "Han Solo dies." I have to disagree a bit, here. I think Han's death has thematic resonance with his arc throughout the other movies because it's the ultimate distillation of what's changed for him. He's a guy whose natural impulses are/were selfishness and cowardice facing death for the sake of his child. It's not particularly revelatory or unique, but it does make sense as the capstone to his arc.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:19
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Jack Gladney posted:It's a lazy way to solve a love triangle born out of laziness and a refusal to listen to Harrison Ford's good advice. What was his advice?
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Jan 24, 2016 17:19
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Here is a cool story about the chess pieces being used in Force Awakens: http://www.wired.com/2016/01/force-awakens-holochess-process/ quote:Their goal was to pick up precisely where the Dejarik game left off in A New Hope: R2-D2’s game piece lifting and slamming Chewbacca’s, a creature the animators referred to as “Hunk.” After analyzing the 1977 sequence, the team determined how to place the creatures in the exact same positions they were at the end of the original scene. In The Force Awakens, the game continues; once Finn turns on the table, as Dubeau says, “Hunk gets back up and exacts his revenge on the guy who threw him down.”
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Jan 24, 2016 17:20
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Hat Thoughts posted:What was his advice? That he should die not long after being rescued from carbon freezing, which would've been absurd.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:24
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Hat Thoughts posted:What was his advice? That he should have died in Empire instead of being frozen.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:35
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Cnut the Great posted:we don't actually know why Han died. We don't know what he died for. He died in service to Kylo Ren's quest to purge himself of light side temptations.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:42
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Jack Gladney posted:That he should have died in Empire instead of being frozen. In light of this it's easier to believe why Ford is so happy with Han's role in TFA and why he seemed to enjoy himself; Han is already dead, and lingers onwards as a spectre, tethered to the world by unfinished business. Only after finally accomplishing his transformation into a selfless martyr is he finally able to truly leave Star Wars, and close the arc with dignity. It also adds even more weight to his talk with Leia; that their "usual pointless routine, fleeing their destinies" started even further back than the end of ROTJ, to the beginning of the film. TFA is a Good Film.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:04
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Red posted:Obi-Wan: You search for the assassin. I think I'll wet my whistle. quote:The whole movie is like that. I meant black and white silent movie with top hats and handlebar mustaches.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:10
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RBA Starblade posted:I meant black and white silent movie with top hats and handlebar mustaches. So did I: --- Nute Gunray: Darth Sidious! We'll obey whatever you command, sinister villain! Darth Sidious: Nyah-ah-ah! Kill the Jedi! --- Qui-Gon Jinn: You're an odd-looking fellow! What is your name? Jar-Jar Binks: Yahoo! I'm Jar-Jar Binks! Qui-Gon Jinn: Can you lead us to safety, Mister Binks? Jar-Jar Binks: Yahoo! Follow me! --- Obi-Wan Kenobi: Why do I suspect we've adopted another pathetic lifeform? Qui-Gon Jinn: Tut tut, chum. Doing good deeds is the hallmark of being a Jedi. --- Boss Nass: Jar-Jar Binks was expelled from my kingdom. His crime? Being a nincompoop! Qui-Gon Jinn: I saved his life. His life debt to me means he must become my manservant. Boss Nass: Ho ho! Enjoy your clumsy butler! I'll even give you a free boat for taking this ninny off my hands. --- Darth Sidious: Now, you must invade Naboo. Once conquered, force the Queen to sign the treaty, legalizing the occupation. Nute Gunray: Force the Queen to sign a treaty? Is that even ... legal? Darth Sidious: I will make it legal, you clod. Now - good day! Nute Gunray: But I- Darth Sidious: I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR! /hologram fades Rune Haako: You did not tell him about the Jedi escaping! Nute Gunray: This caper is becoming a fiasco!
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Jan 24, 2016 19:09
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Red posted:So did I: Haha, I wasn't paying enough attention to your post!
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Jan 24, 2016 20:18
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Cnut the Great posted:I'm obviously not talking about the plot. Who cares about the plot? I feel like this sums up your posts in this thread pretty succinctly vvv 
Friendly Factory fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 21:06
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Plot and story are two different things, story is vastly more important (and interesting), Cnut is correct to feel this way (and is a great poster). Hopefully this is what you're getting at.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:08
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Leave Cnut alone. I think most of us here would vote him the Supreme Chancellor of our hearts.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:19
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Jack Gladney posted:Darth Vader didn't have a story at the start beyond being seduced by the dark side and corrupted. Rylo Ken seems like an insecure overcompensating immature little poo poo who enjoys evil because he wants people to respect him and to be good at something yet knows deep down that nobody respects him and that he's not that great at anything. He comes off like a neo-nazi or a school shooter. The character work in both the script and the acting was probably my favorite part of the movie, as it can say a lot by showing a little. I'm late on this but Kylo Ren literally is a school shooter
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Jan 24, 2016 21:23
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Plot and story are two different things, story is vastly more important (and interesting), Cnut is correct to feel this way (and is a great poster). Hopefully this is what you're getting at. Anyone who has had to endure the shapeless meanderings of an undergraduate creative writing class can attest to the importance of plot.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:28
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm late on this but Kylo Ren literally is a school shooter No he's not. He used a sword.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:33
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm late on this but Kylo Ren literally is a school shooter No he's not. Besides being a stabber, the explanation for his actions doesn't fit with any actual school shooting. You might have missed that he gathered a team of like six other dudes, and is motivated by a deep religious conviction. Essentially, he had a sort of religious epiphany that he's now struggling to understand.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:40
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Bongo Bill posted:No he's not. He used a sword. SuperMechagodzilla posted:No he's not. He's a stabber first of all, and the explanation for his actions doesn't fit with any actual school shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWjn2oSVBm8 neither of you are thinking with the force and that's just shameful
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Jan 24, 2016 21:41
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm late on this but Kylo Ren literally is a school shooter He reminds me of the kid from We Need to Talk About Kevin.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:41
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Plot and story are two different things, story is vastly more important (and interesting), Cnut is correct to feel this way (and is a great poster). Hopefully this is what you're getting at. Plot and story are also, incidentally, synonyms.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:44
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Yeah so are hypothesis and theory but not in the realm of science. Plot and story are distinct in the context of things like movies.Fuligin posted:Anyone who has had to endure the shapeless meanderings of an undergraduate creative writing class can attest to the importance of plot. Yeah yeah plot is important like how a map with directions is important for a road trip. But it's not very interesting by itself. When you're dealing with people who can't put together a coherent plot then yeah it's important; but these movies have plots.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:45
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RBA Starblade posted:Plot and story are also, incidentally, synonyms. Not in this context. I wish Cnut would go through the Prequels scene by scene, like that thread about the Transformers trilogy.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:46
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RBA Starblade posted:Plot and story are also, incidentally, synonyms. Not quite.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:48
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I was being a butt with him saying they're two different things and their literal definitions being synonyms, you guys. You don't actually need to defend it; I know.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:49
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RBA Starblade posted:I was being a butt with him saying they're two different things and their literal definitions being synonyms, you guys. You don't actually need to defend it; I know. In this thread you never know.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:50
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Lord Krangdar posted:In this thread you never know. I should have added a  or something. 
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Jan 24, 2016 22:00
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