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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We should not forget that the Yoda v. Dooku fight was a total hit with audiences. The closest thing to it since was 'puny god' in Avengers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3B3IG5na0o
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Jan 26, 2016 05:50
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Hurry up, Qui Gon!
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Jan 26, 2016 06:01
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Oh God, what the hell? To get that poo poo out of your mind, watch the original awesome trailer for ESB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz_YWNhKOkM Then, watch this trailer for ESB someone made that apes the Force Awakens trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFA-Oip1wF8
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Jan 26, 2016 06:05
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Exactly; that horrible commercial exists because Yoda v Dooku is the most popular scene in Attack of the Clones and, therefore, one of the most popular scenes in Star Wars history.
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Jan 26, 2016 06:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly; that horrible commercial exists because Yoda v Dooku is the most popular scene in Attack of the Clones and, therefore, one of the most popular scenes in Star Wars history. I don't think the commercial completely answers the question "Who da man?", though. Is it Yoda? The buyer? Who? And if he can leap and bound around, why does he limp with a cane?
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Jan 26, 2016 06:15
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Yaws posted:Do droids feel? If so, are those feelings real? Do they count since they're fabricated and can be altered at will by Man? Luckily we have 3 terrible movies that explores this super interesting moral dilemma. When in the movies are those feelings altered at will by man? In all the examples I can think of characters being mind-controlled the targets are human.
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Jan 26, 2016 06:17
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TFA rewatch I spy: + BB-8 charging a bunch of ducks + The red-eyed alien that pops out of the desert talks + Two jawa-looking things followed by a Nute Gunray-looking thing on Jakku + Mini-Leia (young woman imitating Leia's hair, in 3 different shots at the Resistance base, including one where the back of her jacket has a red Resistance symbol and one where she is standing directly behind Leia) + Spider walkers at Starkiller base + Han figuring out Finn is a big liar the very moment he's introduced as a member of the Resistance, based on Finn's expression when Rey mentions it + Rey food porn: first bread, then later a stuffed fruit thing at Maz's place + A Rebellion pilot(?) doll in Rey's house + The First Order insignia during Hux's speech + "These are the first steps" whispered in Rey's vision + The giant vampire corpse behind Han Solo after Maz shouts his name + Phasma being really strong and awesome + Red alien holding peg-legged alien's arm to help him walk as they leave Maz's place + Rey getting super-psyched about the blaster and having reflecting red eyes when she fires it + Statue at Luke island, as well as some more modern tech on the ground that Rey is using to track him + Gravestone by Luke's feet + C-3PO's repaired arm + Droidspotting: yellow fireman droid attending the Millenium Falcon, giant horse/electrobrain droid (2 different shots), droid behind a hologram map in the Resistance base, white star-shaped droids in Starkiller base turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 06:32
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Young girl imitating Leia's hair is Billie Lourd. Carrie Fisher's daughter.
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Jan 26, 2016 06:35
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For what it is worth, Lucas strongly denies that anything in the trilogies is a reference to Bush and rather that it was a response to his feelings regarding Nixon, and that democracy died under him (implying that it is still dead now).
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Jan 26, 2016 07:30
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Yeah, nothing the Bush did was particularly new or groundbreaking in terms of American atrocities abroad. Just look at the long, bloody history of the CIA fighting the Communist threat except where it actually exist, helping put monstrous dictators into places ruining countries and killing/ruing the lives of millions. poo poo, he lived through the Vietnam War, which is just a bigger uglier Iraq War. It ain't new.
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Jan 26, 2016 07:44
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crowoutofcontext posted:BB-8 was originally supposed to be introduced in a similar situation as R2's sand-crawler fiasco. There was an early idea to have him in a nefarious automated droid repair center in a Star Destroyer which threw "unrepairable" droids into a furnace. If they went with that idea the droid slavery theme of the earlier films would be apparent. What book is this?
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Jan 26, 2016 07:45
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The Art of The Force Awakens.
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Jan 26, 2016 08:13
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I rewatched Metropolis Saturday (for my birthday, I got to see a representation of the movie accompanied by an organist improvising a new soundtrack, it was amazing), and holy poo poo does Coruscant borrow a lot from it. Well, most futuristic cities borrow from Metropolis, but it's pretty cool anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C8MtzRK2ZY poo poo, Palpatine's office kind of looks like that of the Master of Metropolis.
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Jan 26, 2016 08:50
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MonsieurChoc posted:I rewatched Metropolis Saturday (for my birthday, I got to see a representation of the movie accompanied by an organist improvising a new soundtrack, it was amazing), and holy poo poo does Coruscant borrow a lot from it. Well, most futuristic cities borrow from Metropolis, but it's pretty cool anyway. Metropolis is great, I seriously hope to see it on a big screen someday. Well, my college had a big screen but a lecture hall is not a movie theater. That video is awesome. I love recognizing shots from these old films in Star Wars. I've noticed shots from Battleship Potemkin and The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari and lots of other stuff.
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Jan 26, 2016 09:02
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Rick posted:Metropolis is great, I seriously hope to see it on a big screen someday. Well, my college had a big screen but a lecture hall is not a movie theater. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gUKYBs6T8c
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Jan 26, 2016 09:04
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This was great, thanks!
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Jan 26, 2016 09:24
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Rick posted:This was great, thanks! There's an annotated version that shows where he took all the footage and audio. Gustav Holst' The Planets are used pretty often, as is Igor Stranvinsky's The Rite of Spring.
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Jan 26, 2016 09:31
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It should be noted that Lucas is not just paying homage with these borrowed images, but recontextualizing them to offer his own commentary. As a basic example, Metropolis is a liberal film about how rich must be nice to the poor, while the poor shouldn't get too uppity. The film ends with a class-truce where the capitalist and the workers unite in the destruction of the mad, disruptive satanist and his heartless robot. In the prequels, a similar chain of events leads directly to the creation of the Empire.
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Jan 26, 2016 09:32
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There's the feature length version of this made by penismightier(rip) as well https://vimeo.com/149371775
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Jan 26, 2016 11:01
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Steve2911 posted:So we've established that the PT is unintentionally funny? Of course a wrinkled, green, backwards-talking, two-foot tall frog-man leaping around with a laser sword and engaging in combat against a 6'5'' gentleman vampire is funny. A wrinkled, green, backwards-talking, two-foot tall frog-man who literally lives in a swamp like Kermit the Frog turning out to be a wise Zen master with vast psychic and spiritual powers is also funny. Within the context of the Star Wars universe itself, though, these things are both deadly serious affairs. So yes, we've now established that Star Wars is unintentionally funny. What a revelation! Friendly Factory posted:Just actually use the whole loving quote and you'd know: "Size matters not" is a philosophical ideal. The idea is that size shouldn't matter, and once you overcome this intellectual hurdle, you'll be able to do anything. That doesn't mean that anyone, in practice, will ever be able to fully overcome the limitations of their own mind while they're still a physical being bound to the physical plane. That doesn't make sense. Otherwise Yoda could have just blown up the Death Star at any time using his mind. Unless, of course, the Emperor is simultaneously, at all times, exerting his power in the Force so as to prevent Yoda from blowing up the Death Star with his mind. It is of course possible that this is what's actually going on, but I believe it more likely that this line of thinking is taking us to some very ridiculous places the films never intended for us to go. Alternatively, we could accept that Yoda is simply illustrating a general principle as part of a larger point, not literally telling Luke that he should be able to blow up entire planets using nothing but the power of his mind because "size matters not," and shame on him if he can't. Yoda was disappointed in Luke because Luke should have been able to open up his mind enough to at least lift the X-wing. It wasn't an understandable failing arising out of the natural limits of the human mind, which would have been forgivable. It was simply a failure of faith and imagination on Luke's part. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 13:49
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quote:Of course a wrinkled, green, backwards-talking, two-foot tall frog-man leaping around with a laser sword and engaging in combat against a 6'5'' gentleman vampire is funny. A wrinkled, green, backwards-talking, two-foot tall frog-man who literally lives in a swamp like Kermit the Frog turning out to be a wise Zen master with vast psychic and spiritual powers is also funny. Within the context of the Star Wars universe itself, though, these things are both deadly serious affairs. One of these is way more unintentionally funny than the other.
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Jan 26, 2016 14:59
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RBA Starblade posted:One of these is way more unintentionally funny than the other. Why? You either believe in Yoda as a character or you don't. There's no reason Yoda shouldn't be able to sword fight. And if he's able to sword fight, it should look exactly like it does in Episode II. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 16:30
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What I'm seeing in this thread is that there are, very broadly speaking, two camps: those who place importance on "how a movie feels" and those who place importance on "what a movie means". To some people -- myself included -- no matter what the author intended OR what other people are able to obtain through analysis, if the movie didn't convey those ideas clearly and make us feel their weight and importance, it didn't succeed. Rather, it is something that works on paper but not necessarily as a film. (Which I guess is why so many times, "the book is better".) Others are less concerned about the temporal viewing experience and more about what we're left with afterward. I fail to see how either perspective is invalid or intellectually inferior. It's not just "turn your brain off and enjoy it" vs. "think about the movie and engage with it instead of just watching it". We pretty much all do both of these things -- we experience it immediately, and then our memory of the experience takes a certain shape afterwards. It's just a matter of which phase of the experience we prioritize. I'll use an example from TFA since I've already bashed the prequels plenty. Starkiller Base didn't work for me, and it's not just because it was an obvious callback. Whatever, the whole movie is a callback, it's the seventh movie in the franchise. But it didn't work because I perceived a disparity between how important it was supposed to be to the characters, and how important it felt. Certainly, on paper, there's no reason not to be afraid of this thing. They did a perfectly adequate job of explaining what a big deal it was. It's not like I was confused about why they wanted to destroy it. But the movie never made me feel the way the characters felt about it. And that's what I'm looking for in a movie. (Usually.) I suppose for some (I haven't really seen it argued in this thread yet), the clarity of Starkiller's purpose in the story is sufficient. It has meaning because it influences the story and characters in definite ways. What more do we need to know, really? Obviously we won't be as scared of it as the characters are, it's not even real! Ultimately, "not feeling important" is incredibly subjective and, in a sense, holds very little weight in a discussion of a work's meaning. Who cares if you didn't feel it was important? It was! In my view, discussing how we felt about a movie while we watched it is actually a lot more difficult than discussing its deeper meanings. Which is actually why I'm more interested in the former. And at the same time I'm not sure what the point of discussing it is, whereas discussing the meaning seems more profitable. Make of it what you will.
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Jan 26, 2016 16:32
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Except how a movie "feels" is super subjective and will be affected by a lot of factors that have nothing to do with the movie itself. Like wrong expectations.
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Jan 26, 2016 16:47
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"Feels" as a pejorative.
Corek fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 16:49
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Sir Lemming posted:I suppose for some (I haven't really seen it argued in this thread yet), the clarity of Starkiller's purpose in the story is sufficient. It has meaning because it influences the story and characters in definite ways. What more do we need to know, really? Obviously we won't be as scared of it as the characters are, it's not even real! The director of the movie himself seems to concede that not a lot of effort was put into making Starkiller Base feel like a big deal. Compare to the Death Star II, where if you read the story conference transcripts, you can see that everyone involved--including Lucas--was very concerned about making it feel distinct from the first Death Star plot; which is why they came up with the idea to make it a trap. The outcome of the battle feels like it might actually be in question, because while the heroes go in expecting it to be a repeat of the Battle of Yavin, it actually turns out to be something quite different. The movie keeps yanking you around in different directions. Whenever you think you know what's going to happen next, the movie introduces a new complication that wasn't in the last Death Star battle. In contrast, TFA just goes ahead and gives us another trench run....and that's it, basically. And it doesn't make any real attempt to infuse any drama or stakes into the action. It's just like, "So, like, here's your trench run, guys....anyway, you know how it goes." It's yet another homage lacking any independent reason to exist, in a movie full of such things.
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Jan 26, 2016 17:29
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Because in one instance the tiny gremlin is raising his hand, and in the other he has a tiny laser sword in his hand doing flips and hopping around several feet in the air. In AotC, and correct me if I'm wrong since I only saw it once and never again, but he effortlessly uses the Force to deflect Dooku's debris. It is already established then that Size Matters Not. For me it's not "he can't use one" and you're right if the tiny barely mobile gremlin is going to use a tiny lil' babysaber, then that's about right, it's more that he doesn't need to and shouldn't be using that kind of weapon in the first place (sort of like the joke in RLM how Kit Fisto the tentacle head man with tentacles whipping everywhere is using a weapon that would cut the tentacles off immediately). I guess you could make the point that it's further proof of the Jedi being stuck in their ways that he does so rather than something adapted to himself, or even using physical force at all considering his mastery, but you'd think the rest of the movie is proof enough of that.
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Jan 26, 2016 17:30
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There's no one personally attached to the Starkiller attack like there are for the Death Stars (Leia -> Alderaan in the first movie, in ROTJ the Death Star being operational is part of the Emperor's attempt to make Luke angry enough to fall to the Dark Side, it's Luke -> the Rebels). Tarkin is using the Death Star as a threat against Leia, that's what all his speech is toward, Hux is celebrating Starkiller for his own sake. So even though we have the "enemy side" in all Death Star/Starkiller scenes, Starkiller follows up not with a personal hero response, but the death of a bunch of random people followed by Finn immediately asking "Where's Rey", which makes sense for his character but not for mimicking the emotional replies to the destruction in the earlier films. For every statistic, have a story to go with it, or people don't care. That's something from the nonprofit sector but I think it applies here too.
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Jan 26, 2016 17:34
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I will never understand how the progression from "space wizard magic duel" to "supernatural laser-sword battle" isn't rad as hell. Yoda pulling out his lightsaber and giving Dooku what for is still one of my favorite parts of the otherwise average Attack of the Clones. When I was a little kid I always wondered what Yoda would look like using a lightsaber, and that scene really did it justice for me. It's pretty awesome to see him busting out the same moves in the Clone Wars show too.
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Jan 26, 2016 17:37
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Cnut the Great posted:The director of the movie himself seems to concede that not a lot of effort was put into making Starkiller Base feel like a big deal. Compare to the Death Star II, where if you read the story conference transcripts, you can see that everyone involved--including Lucas--was very concerned about making it feel distinct from the first Death Star plot; which is why they came up with the idea to make it a trap. The outcome of the battle feels like it might actually be in question, because while the heroes go in expecting it to be a repeat of the Battle of Yavin, it actually turns out to be something quite different. The movie keeps yanking you around in different directions. Whenever you think you know what's going to happen next, the movie introduces a new complication that wasn't in the last Death Star battle. While I do think that a part of what releases the tension is the fact that we've seen Death Star battles before, I think you're also spot on in that we basically know how it's going to pan out. And I don't mean in some sort of meta way like, "the good guys win duhhhhh", but there were essentially no stakes. Compare the Starkiller attack to the ANH Death Star attack (or specifically the portion when the Death Star is finally in range at 12m42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8) Even now after we've all seen this thing a billion times, the combination of the music, tarkin's chilling order and the quick cuts from space to a hopeless looking leia makes it feel like "holy poo poo are the good guys actually going to fail?" and then in comes Han and I'll be goddamned if I still don't cheer, y'know? And then in RotJ not only do we have Sheev monologuing about how he totally puppet mastered the rebels into attacking but then oh poo poo we learn that DS2 is active and it's straight up blowing the rebel ships away--it feels pretty drat grim. ...and then with TFA we even see scrub pilots get blown away with little fanfaire and never thing that Poe is in danger or that the Resistance is going to fail, there's never that same sense of urgency or dire threat. It falls completely flat. It's almost like JJ knew he had to resolve the starkiller thing so he kinda phoned that in and dumped all of that tension into the final Kylo/Finn+Rey encounter, which was awesome and tense and scary
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Jan 26, 2016 17:42
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quote:
While I disagree about Starkiller in general, the countdown the one guy kept giving was pretty lol. Especially since it seemed like he was throwing random times out.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:00
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I agree that the Starkiller run is pretty tensionless, even though it looks cool. In fact at one point when we cut back to it (from the lightsaber fight I guess) I had forgotten it was even happening. All will be forgiven, though, if in VIII they subvert VII's stereotype "run on the badguy superweapon" with a (successful) First Order attack on a Resistance superweapon.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:04
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I do wish more had been made of Dooku's relationship with the other characters. There's a clear lineage here, from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Ob-Wan to Anakin, and I feel like more could have been done with it. Ah well.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:11
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MonsieurChoc posted:I do wish more had been made of Dooku's relationship with the other characters. There's a clear lineage here, from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Ob-Wan to Anakin, and I feel like more could have been done with it. So . . . Dooku was a Jedi. But they grabbed them very young and made them renounce worldly blahblah. He made it all the way to Jedi without Yoda saying "Much monarchism there is, I sense" and then he just did a career change, deciding to go be a count? How did he know how to be a count, if he'd been a warrior-monk his whole life?
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Jan 26, 2016 18:15
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Serf posted:I will never understand how the progression from "space wizard magic duel" to "supernatural laser-sword battle" isn't rad as hell. I don't know about anyone else, and I've resisted posting about this because it seems like such a divisive issue, but for me, I don't think the CG was quite there, yet, or it wasn't handled right. Yoda flying all over the place felt oddly weightless, and not in an awesome, "Oh, he's doing Force gymnastics" way, but a Spider-Man 1 kind of way. It didn't feel like wushu so much as someone clicking and dragging Yoda all over the screen.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:19
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Phylodox posted:I don't know about anyone else, and I've resisted posting about this because it seems like such a divisive issue, but for me, I don't think the CG was quite there, yet, or it wasn't handled right. Yoda flying all over the place felt oddly weightless, and not in an awesome, "Oh, he's doing Force gymnastics" way, but a Spider-Man 1 kind of way. It didn't feel like wushu so much as someone clicking and dragging Yoda all over the screen. No, I get that. Oddly enough I didn't have a problem with CGI Yoda so much as I did the close-ups of Christopher Lee where you could really tell that the dude was not up to the task of pulling off those scenes. Going back and watching it now, I have no issues with Yoda, but rather with the transitions between up-close Christopher Lee and the further away shots where the obviously used a stunt-double and CGI or something. The change in movement speed is particularly jarring.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:26
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homullus posted:So . . . Dooku was a Jedi. But they grabbed them very young and made them renounce worldly blahblah. He made it all the way to Jedi without Yoda saying "Much monarchism there is, I sense" and then he just did a career change, deciding to go be a count? How did he know how to be a count, if he'd been a warrior-monk his whole life? Maybe he was elected.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:39
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RBA Starblade posted:Because in one instance the tiny gremlin is raising his hand, and in the other he has a tiny laser sword in his hand doing flips and hopping around several feet in the air. In AotC, and correct me if I'm wrong since I only saw it once and never again, but he effortlessly uses the Force to deflect Dooku's debris. It is already established then that Size Matters Not. For me it's not "he can't use one" and you're right if the tiny barely mobile gremlin is going to use a tiny lil' babysaber, then that's about right, it's more that he doesn't need to and shouldn't be using that kind of weapon in the first place (sort of like the joke in RLM how Kit Fisto the tentacle head man with tentacles whipping everywhere is using a weapon that would cut the tentacles off immediately). I guess you could make the point that it's further proof of the Jedi being stuck in their ways that he does so rather than something adapted to himself, or even using physical force at all considering his mastery, but you'd think the rest of the movie is proof enough of that. He and Dooku are evenly matched in the spiritual realm. That's the whole point of starting off by showing them using their Force powers against each other, and then having Dooku say, out loud, "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." They're at a psychic stalemate, and so they have to resort to physical force. It's exactly the same rationale Lucas used to allow Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi duel in Episode IV. From the 1977 story conference for The Empire Strikes Back: George Lucas posted:“Earlier, Luke talks to Ben; when he brings him up as a ghost, we portend what is going to happen. Ben says, ‘Vader has more power than you can imagine. When he and I met, we fought on such a level that there didn’t appear to be much of a battle; it appeared to be a swordfight, but it was a battle of our wills that was really going on in the beyond.’ I’d like to make it into a battle (which we did in the Alan Dean Foster book, which is what I wanted to do in the first one with Ben and Vader) with lightning or electrical bolts, and throwing things around the room; an Exorcist kind of battle where you can bring all kinds of supernatural powers to bear. We’ll have Ben say, ‘Vader couldn’t use his supernatural powers against me, because I was too strong; he had to rely on brute force, which wasn’t of any value, because I was too advanced for that, so everything he did to me was useless.’ That's how it works in Star Wars. The whole point is to come up with a way so that it makes sense for powerful Force-users to have sword fights. Getting the heroes and villains to have sword fights with each other is the goal. Laser sword fights are a core component of the Star Wars concept. Nowhere in the original films is it ever suggested that Jedi Masters don't fight with lightsabers. In fact, the exact opposite thing is established by virtue of Ben Kenobi's use of a lightsaber. The idea that Yoda isn't supposed to fight with a lightsaber is a complete fan invention that explicitly contradicts what is actually established in the original films. The fact that so many Star Wars fans got so pissed off when Episode II showed Yoda, a Jedi, fighting with a lightsaber, the weapon of a Jedi, is one of the few things that tempts me to full-throatedly agree with SMG's assertions that Star Wars fans don't actually like Star Wars. Now, Lucas did say this at one point back during the making of ROTJ: The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi posted:Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody. But what Lucas is saying here is that Yoda does not fight period. He doesn't say that Yoda fights, but only using Force powers. And he never said that Yoda never fought. All he said is that Yoda doesn't fight now. Obviously he fought at one point, because he was, at one point, a "real Jedi," which is why Luke correctly identifies him as having at one time been a "great warrior." But now Yoda is too old, just like Ben was starting to get too old in A New Hope, and so he's just a guru. A teacher. And this is how Yoda is depicted in the prequels. He's not an active Jedi who goes out on field missions. He doesn't go out and fight people anymore, because he's too old. His job is to stay at the Jedi Temple and teach, like a guru. It's only when the Clone Wars break out that Yoda "comes out of retirement," so to speak, and takes up his lightsaber again in the fight against evil. It's a strain on him, because, again, he's very old. He really does need that cane. But he can still do it. It's just not what he's supposed to be doing. And the prequels show that. Obviously, by the time Luke meets him on Dagobah, Yoda's health has deteriorated drastically, so now he's completely useless in a fight. But clearly, even according to the OT, Yoda was once an active Jedi Knight, and thus a warrior. And of course, when he was a Jedi Knight, he fought with a lightsaber. This has never been in doubt. He trains Luke with a lightsaber in deleted scenes from The Empire Strikes Back. He obviously knows how to use one. Basically, disgruntled Star Wars fans have been getting bent out of shape for years over George Lucas violating their personal head-canon, even though that head-canon was a result of those fans not understanding the original movies in the first place. So, par for the course for Star Wars fans, basically.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:41
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Serf posted:No, I get that. Oddly enough I didn't have a problem with CGI Yoda so much as I did the close-ups of Christopher Lee where you could really tell that the dude was not up to the task of pulling off those scenes. Going back and watching it now, I have no issues with Yoda, but rather with the transitions between up-close Christopher Lee and the further away shots where the obviously used a stunt-double and CGI or something. The change in movement speed is particularly jarring. He was old, of course, but of the actors in that scene, he's the one who's actually killed people.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:42
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homullus posted:He was old, of course, but of the actors in that scene, he's the one who's actually killed people. Oh this was definitely not an attempt to knock Christopher Lee. Dude was a legend and he played Dooku perfectly. My problem with that scene (which is still a rad loving wizard sword fight) is purely technical in nature.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:48
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