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JerryLee posted:I can't listen, can anyone give the cliffs notes? Basically judges do a little but of cursing calling out WOTC for basically lying every step of the way. The only new information that was that wasn't out there before is that the 3rd party judge leadership (The JCC) suspended all these judges without following their own rules. Basically took a big poo poo on them and all the hard work they put into the program simply because wotc told them to. This is funny because the JCC exists outside the realm of WOTC to better define that judges aren't employees of WOTC and that they are independent organization, yet they apparently take orders. It as also passively debated that a member of the JCC did exactly what he was told because he was personally benefiting for GP money. TLDR - WOTC has more control over the judge program than judges were led to believe and that judging is pretty poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2016 05:58
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I haven't listened to it, but it's pretty brave of these judges to speak out, even after their suspensions got lifted. I'd be paranoid of hidden consequences such as getting turned down for GPs, not getting exemplar recognitions (so no foils), etc. I'm sure their judging could be made both inconvenient and uncomfortable without much effort and with nothing to point back to anyone in charge.
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Jan 28, 2016 07:20
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BJPaskoff posted:I haven't listened to it, but it's pretty brave of these judges to speak out, even after their suspensions got lifted. I'd be paranoid of hidden consequences such as getting turned down for GPs, not getting exemplar recognitions (so no foils), etc. I'm sure their judging could be made both inconvenient and uncomfortable without much effort and with nothing to point back to anyone in charge. The exemplar program is already a parasitic poo poo show so I don't think they've much to fear. Judge foils basically don't exist through the program anymore beyond conferences, unless you live in a major centre with lots of judge activity.
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Jan 28, 2016 08:00
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I think the part where Patrick "I am a grown man who goes by trick" jarrett claimed that leaking things was a moral wrong was the best part of the whole thing
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Jan 28, 2016 08:30
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I'm going through it now and summarizing to the best of my ability. It really is quite fascinating how hosed the whole thing is.
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Jan 28, 2016 09:38
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Captainsalami posted:Picked up magic online because I work third shift and never leave the house. Is there any advice i can get about how to start out or did I gently caress up? I started doing MTGO last week too, first time really coming back to the game since I last played casually in high school around the time of 8th (fond memories of buying and playing my Life Boost pre-constructed deck). I'm not averse to spending a little money on it since I don't really have the resource to play MTG in real life, but I'm still not having any problem really enjoying it on the cheap/free. Here's some of my unsolicited thoughts from another new player:
Probably the biggest thing that draws me to MTGO is that there is literally always something going on. On top of regular events that are run around the clock (except for downtimes on Wednesdays), there are also a ton of events that can fire on user demand. It's like having a permanent Friday Night Magic happening in your living room, except it probably doesn't smell so bad. Drone fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 09:50
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Sickening posted:http://judgecast.com/?p=930 God, I apologize for the length of this summary. To explain, I am completely in the dark about how judge programs are meant to work so it was a real eye-opener to hear about the layers of bureaucracy involved. A not so brief summary: 1. A programmer for MTGO (these exist?) is given access to new cards. Posts some on Imgur over several sets. 2. One of the Judges (let's call him Adam) on their Judge-message boards is a friend of a friend of this MTGO programmer, shares the link to the spoilers when the viewcount is in the 150-ish range. People check out the cards, say "Oh, thats neat" (again, over several sets) and go back to talking about Fantasy Football unless there's something rules-y about them. Magic Origins Flipwalkers are called out specifically here, and availability of check cards. Overall impression is they don't care about specific cards, mainly rules surrounding those cards. 3. People see Kozilek and Wastes. Plenty call BS, pointing out cards from a second set retroactively changing the formatting of cards from the first set as being loving stupid. Some lore nerd pointed out Kozilek wasn't even on the plane to begin with so it makes no sense for him to appear in the set. Some internal debate on the ramifications of what was seen rules-wise but it's not a huge shakeup. 4.Fifteen minutes later, everyone's moved on to talk about the latest episode of Fargo. Because of their uniqueness, one of the judges shares with a friend asking their opinion. We'll call this friend "Patient Zero". 5. Twitter. 6. Adam the Judge gets a call from a private number, the guy on the other end says he's from Wizards and threatens to call the cops on him and threatens to sue for copyright / theft of intellectual property if he doesn't spill where he got the cards from. Adam has a green card and shits his pants over fears of deportation. Says he got them from Reddit. Calls his Regional Coordinator (one of the guys on the podcast) who runs the Judge message board in question. 7. RC says this smells of BS, Wizards would do things more formally, inform him via. email or some such. Says hold the line, he'll call his guys at Wizards. Turns out yep, it was legit. RC contacts the guy who made the phonecall, outright says "Look me and Adam are happy to help, tell us what you want to know, but you really can't call people on blocked numbers and start threatening to destroy their lives legally." RC and Adam cooperate fully. 8. A week later RC gets an email asking for names and contact information for everyone on the boards leadership chat. Wizards guy says its to send out emails to gather info, same basic stuff he asked Adam and RC. RC questions if penalties will be applied to Adam or any other judges to which Wizards guy says, as RC is on the RCAC (see 19 below) he'd be the first to know, as all judge bans or suspensions first pass through them before getting to the affected Judge. 9. When judges involved hear WOTC are investigating the leak they sit up and take notice. Everyone expects a call or email, and everyone is willing to fully cooperate. No-one calls or emails any of the names given. 10. A while passes, then three guys (Adam included) get letters telling them they can't do poo poo for 2-3 years. Some judges are peeved. Mississippi is virtually Judge-less. 11. Three days later (11/21) emails trickle in. Everyone gets a letter of suspension. Quote a Judge that hadn't been on their forums for nearly a year: "Um, guys? Why do I have this letter? And what is an Oath of the Gatewatch?" Dude was hit and hadn't seen a single leaked card. Its clear no proper investigation has taken place. RC calls some judge manager/liason dude with WOTC, leaves a message to call back ASAP. 12. Meanwhile, WIzards posts an article stating a group of judges were banned for disseminating confidential information over multiple sets (not true), theft of Wizards intellectual property (not true), accessing Wizards private database (BS), basically calling the judges program in the southeast USA a ring of thieves. Liason calls back and RC calls out Wizards lies and BS, and threatens to go nuclear on social media. Keep in mind this is the week before Christmas, Wizards shuts down for two weeks so there's really no-one else to contact apart from this idiot caught in the middle. Liason says he understands, but before any public comments are made and people say things that cannot be taken back everyone affected should submit an appeal. Once everything goes through and gets approved/denied no further damage can be done by speaking out publicly. To the guys credit, this was exactly the right thing to say and do, as most of the people affected at that point were so pissed they were ready to walk away. They hear what he's saying though, and the majority do in fact keep quiet and submit appeals over the next couple of days. 13. An appeal from one of the guys on the podcast calls out the Wizards article specifically. Helene who authored the article is on a road trip but contacts the guy to hear his concerns about it. The article at the time was a single paragraph, calling out Southeast judges as having stolen property and being a "thieving ring", when told that was not reflective of the situation at all Helene seemed receptive but pointed out that, as she was on the road she wasn't in a position to edit it. She promises that next day she'll have something more detailed prepared and would preview the amended article to the guy before posting it live. 14. 15 minutes later dude gets a text message: "HELENE: hey its up". Two extra paragraphs are up clarifying that senior judges are entirely responsible for the criminal allegations levelled in judges in the region, and further accusations are also included in the article that were never discussed before nor were ever properly investigated. Judges suspect a lot of the new arguments raised in the updated article directly address the criticisms individual appeals levied against their suspensions, as if Wizards is publicly laying the groundwork for their denial. 15. A bit before this, JudgeApps goes down in protest. This is a big deal as this is the program that coordinates judging responsibilities the world over. Basically, no-one has any idea where they are meant to be judging, and events in need of judges have no way of contacting people to judge for them. JudgeApps guy has been in contact with the judges and has been sympathetic to what they're telling him in private (remember, they agreed not to go public). RC assists JudgeAppsGuy in writing an open letter to Wizards for when JAG takes down the site, not actually expecting him to go through with it. To almost everyones surprise he does just that. Players and event organizers are pissed but the majority get where he's coming from and take JAGs side. This turns the situation from a regional shitfight to a major headache for Wizards as store owners, pro-players and judges worldwide contact them Wizards directly to voice their disapproval of the mess. The site comes back after three days but the message sent was very clear, and people sat up and took notice. 16. A knock-on effect is people getting paranoid over spoilers. Because just what they did wrong was so nebulous, people are freaking that they'll get suspended for accessing Imgur images they weren't meant to. Judges didnt go on social media decrying WOTC, but they made it clear to the judge manager/liason (about the only official who wasnt on vacation) that while Wizards has articles up calling them thieves and liars they weren't going to be coy about their side of the story if someone approached them and asked for the facts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~Incoming block about judge organizations~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 17. (about 40 minutes in) Judges got TWO emails back when things kicked off, one a standard "Don't play out game, your DCI number is suspended" letter, and a second "P.S. You're a horrible judge/human being and everything your judge-y hands have touched is now taken from you, hand off the keys to your 2ic and gently caress off". This second letter hurt more than the first, as they had taken on a lot of community responsibilites outside of pure judging I had no awareness of, and the effort it sounds like they went to to update hilariously out of date official information on official sites feels herculean. 18. JCC (an independent organization) handles suspensions/dismissals of Judges as per the Judges code of conduct. My understanding is the relationship between Wizards and the JCC is similar to that of, say, the USAF and Lockheed-Martin: completely independent but very reliant on each other to do their things. My very amateur understanding is being a JCC judge means you can judge in "Official" unofficial tournaments like StarCityGames shindigs. 19. JCC suspension hearings are usually drawn out over several days, with lots of investigation and discussion behind the scenes. If actions warrant suspension its referred to RCAC, a group of regional coordinators and pro-player (John Finkel in this case), who will give oversight and input to various punitive bodies involved in Magic. A punishment is decided upon and a letter is sent out to the judge telling them they're suspended from the program. Typically if an infraction is serious enough Wizards gets involved and they'll just go along and not question it. This would be in serious cases like Assault. This is what happened in this case, Wizards came in and said "These guys are out". Judges got their JCC letters seven hours after their Wizards letters. 20. RCAC is told thirteen senior judges are suspended, basically an entire region, including RC on the podcast who they all work with closely. They ask why and are told those details cannot be released. Also, the judges have already been told they're suspended and punishments had already been decided, bypassing RCAC entirely and ignoring procedures JCC and Wizards had put in place. RCAC is very irate and Wizards/JCC throw their hands up in the air and say "Oh well whats done is done lets move on and put the past behind us shall we". JCC's behaviour is particularly disappointing as they're seen by judges as having their back. 21. Judges who tried to appeal the JCC ruling were stonewalled. One judge wrote a point-by-point appeal to his ruling. In a scene straight out of Animal Farm, a JCC brownnoser "updated" their rules and did a point-by-point takedown of his appeal using these new rules which were enforced retroactively (around minute 50). The slow, rhythmic, well-lubricated handjob the JCC seems to be giving Wizards throughout this whole thing is mesmerizing. ~~~~~~~~~~~Judge organization block endeth~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 22. There was a big concern that after all the work done through the year judges would not receive their end-of-year promotional rewards even though they submitted their appeals in time because everyone was on Christmas break. One of the judges spoke with Helene and plainly told her it would not sit well if they missed out on rewards because Wizards weren't around to process their appeals. It should be noted too Helene appeared on a podcast around this time and doubled down on the BS spouted on the amended article that was put up. Also they were suspended purely as players, not judges, and Wizards have no input to the decisions made by outside organizations unaffiliated with Wizards of the Coast (this statement is factually incorrect as they were suspended from judging at Wizards-sponsored events).In the end I believe they did get their judge rewards. 23. Despite all the bullshit to this point they are sympathetic to Helene and do not blame her personally for being the face of a company that made decisions that impacted them negatively. 24. Some asides as to Wizards piss-poor attempts at messaging in recent history. Proxygate isn't outright stated but one can read between the lines. As Wizards releases more information about the suspensions their messaging falters more and more. 25. Wizards eventually folds. Judges are approached and offered a preview of their to-be-released public statement. It's hardly satisfactory (no admissions of guilt or overzealousness) but most concede it's the best they're going to get and accept it. 26. A few pointed observations from the release and aftermath: Wizards tells people they don't have to report leaks but they should, thereby undercutting their entire reasoning behind the bans in the first place. Wizards for the first time ever publicizes an email address to report leaks to (the suspended judges went looking for such an address in the weeks they were suspended but came up empty). After all this, the judges on the podcast still have hard feelings that after the work they put in they'd be dismissed so casually by both the corporation they volunteer for and the unafilliated organizations they promote, and have a hard time encouraging others to follow in their footsteps. They feel judges trust in both organizations as a whole has been shaken, and that a repeat of something similar would have greater repercussions with judges potentially saying gently caress it en masse and leaving Wizards to fend for themselves. It's stated confidently that if one of the judges on the program decided to quit (Justin Turner) it's likely none of the other L3 judges in the SE would have stuck around either, causing massive headaches for everyone. They didn't get any freebies or spare foil Tarmogoyfs for their troubles. There's a hilarious bit about Proxies at 1:13 where one of the guys approaches WOTC a couple years back and comes to a happy compromise with them re. the use of proxies (keep it small, keep it unsanctioned, don't reuse our art or make cards that could pass as the real thing and we'll turn a blind eye) and the fallout thereof once proxygate hit. Most of the judges on the program have scaled back their input in the judging community and are still unhappy with their treatment. JCC treated them very poorly, but individual judges were almost entirely supportive and sending messages of encouragement, for which they were and still are grateful. *There were reports one of the judges who reported the leak to Wizards was punished. This is false, no-one cared enough about the spoilers to notify them. TL:DR Sickening posted:Don't be judge.
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Jan 28, 2016 12:24
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thanks for summing it up
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Jan 28, 2016 14:04
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Thank you for doing this.
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Jan 28, 2016 14:29
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Even with the summary that's still a mouthful, thanks for doing it, though.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:06
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Alris posted:TL:DR 
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Jan 28, 2016 15:08
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you missed the most important part: a bunch of judges changing their Facebook profile picture to this:
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Jan 28, 2016 15:34
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Wizards-tan doesn't love me and give me cards anymore.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:37
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It would be funny if the bubble burst not due to mtgfinance, but because of judges not wanting to work those dreadful, large events.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:41
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I like working large events. My feet hurt, I get hungry and thirsty, and I have to deal with prima donna pros, but at the end of the day I'm still really happy. Of course, if WOTC hadn't just mailed me $750 worth of promos I might feel differently.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:48
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wizards of the coast is a bad parent someone take magic away from them
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Jan 28, 2016 15:57
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quote:This change was unintentional so we’ll be looking into if it should be/how it should be corrected. How do you let a bug through to production and say it's like this. "It's a feature" is a joke not a thing you should actually say to paying customers.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:25
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I think that's actually a case where it's hard to decide what the optimal implementation should be. Do you allow for some potential mis-clicks or do you have a unnecessary extra steps for decks with 0-cost spells in them? It's the "oops, we didn't think of this until we noticed that it happens in the live game" part that's worrying.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:30
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Entropic posted:I think that's actually a case where it's hard to decide what the optimal implementation should be. Do you allow for some potential mis-clicks or do you have a unnecessary extra steps for decks with 0-cost spells in them? An option in the menu seems like the best of both worlds, but I'm sure that this approach would somehow lead to the client trying to calculate the last decimal digit of pi
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Jan 28, 2016 17:42
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Entropic posted:I think that's actually a case where it's hard to decide what the optimal implementation should be. Do you allow for some potential mis-clicks or do you have a unnecessary extra steps for decks with 0-cost spells in them? Yeah, i feel like this is an obvious thing they should have known about, i mean they changed the mana system so you have to select mana to pay, Zero-mana spells don't have any cost so they skip that step and go directly to resolution, it feels like this would have been an expected result even
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Jan 28, 2016 17:44
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Yeah I noticed it yesterday and I don't like it at all. Too much misclick opportunities. Oddly enough this behavior does not exist on the beta.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:45
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Sickening posted:For those that love to make fun of mtgfinance. The best part of this is that Xemit wrote it. He's basically mtgfinance.txt, but is actually good enough at it to have paid his way through college.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:45
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Entropic posted:I think that's actually a case where it's hard to decide what the optimal implementation should be. Do you allow for some potential mis-clicks or do you have a unnecessary extra steps for decks with 0-cost spells in them? Click on thing to be given option to cast thing. Hold a key and click to just automatically cast it, like if you hold CTRL and click a 0 mana spell it'll just cast it, or if you hold CTRL and click a 1R spell when you have UUR floating, it casts the spell leaving UUR floating. Or just do the Shandalar thing where double clicking a spell just casts it in the laziest way possible, and just clicking on a spell lets you tap things to cast things.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:46
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Apparently that bug also affects abilities that don't cost mana. Such as activating fetch lands.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:46
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Procrastinator posted:Apparently that bug also affects abilities that don't cost mana. Such as activating fetch lands. An unexpected result that testing could not possibly have foreseen!
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Jan 28, 2016 17:49
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Alris posted:TL:DR  In similar news, an L2 in my area is stepping down to L1 (I think). Now four million people have... one L2, unless I'm mistaken. That does make me want to go for the L2 test more, but at the same time, why the hell do I want to?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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Serperoth posted:
There is just so much wrong with the judge system that its hilarious. The process to become one is too convoluted and rising through the ranks is too clique oriented. Slap the "too much work for too little pay" bow on that poo poo sandwich and there you have it. The road to level 2 is incredibly dumb and tedious and once your there you realize that it wasn't worth it to begin with. I am amazed events get staffed at all. Its truly a hobby for the masochistic.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:01
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Procrastinator posted:Apparently that bug also affects abilities that don't cost mana. Such as activating fetch lands. oh boy that's gonna mess with standard and modern pretty bad, can't wait to see how many people mess up scrys with that little feature
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Jan 28, 2016 18:04
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I wonder what happens when WotC eventually just doesn't have enough people to judge their events?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:05
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mandatory lesbian posted:oh boy that's gonna mess with standard and modern pretty bad, can't wait to see how many people mess up scrys with that little feature Apparently cards that have you reveal a dragon like Draconic Roar are broken too.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:06
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Count Bleck posted:I wonder what happens when WotC eventually just doesn't have enough people to judge their events? But they don't run the events so no problem!
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Jan 28, 2016 18:08
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Hellsau posted:Apparently cards that have you reveal a dragon like Draconic Roar are broken too. This also means Titan's Presence is also broken. Which means I'm not building Mono Colorless Eldrazi on MTGO now. Thanks for saving me money WotC! Deck was probably poo poo anyway.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:08
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Hellsau posted:Apparently cards that have you reveal a dragon like Draconic Roar are broken too. what, those types of cards should have been the first checked! oh my god does that mean force of will is broken
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Jan 28, 2016 18:12
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I think it would just be optional additional costs, rather than alternate ones. I guess maybe if you've got 3UU floating and you'd rather cast it with 1 life it might screw up.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:14
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mandatory lesbian posted:what, those types of cards should have been the first checked! Well Annihilator is also broken - if you get attacked by Annihilator 2 choose a permanent, then undo and try to choose other permanents, congratulations you're now saccing four permanents.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:16
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How the gently caress does Annihilator use the mana payment system? Do they just bolt new mechanics onto completely inappropriate old mechanics until it falls over?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:18
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Lancelot posted:How the gently caress does Annihilator use the mana payment system? Do they just bolt new mechanics onto completely inappropriate old mechanics until it falls over? Imagine four mechanics on the top of a mountain. The MTGO Dev team blow up the mountain, and after all the rubble has settled all the mechanics are broken. The mountain was MTGO and the explosives were a patch.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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Hellsau posted:Well Annihilator is also broken - if you get attacked by Annihilator 2 choose a permanent, then undo and try to choose other permanents, congratulations you're now saccing four permanents. my fav things about MTGO are when things break that were working perfectly fine before and don't really seem to have any reason to have broken
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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Lancelot posted:How the gently caress does Annihilator use the mana payment system? Do they just bolt new mechanics onto completely inappropriate old mechanics until it falls over? I assume it's more a problem with "undo" not clearing flags on cards chosen for options but that's based on how I'd do undo so I don't know. Zoness fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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Count Bleck posted:I wonder what happens when WotC eventually just doesn't have enough people to judge their events? If it gets harder to get judges TO's will simply up the price and pass the cost along to the players. $75 GP's are already a thing, and there is almost no negative feedback over that. There will be enough judges that will show for the right price that I don't think this is a huge concern.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:27
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