spectralent posted:You narrowly beat me to this, as well as several similar complaints about current vexing issues in the UK To quote George Orwell, something something mankind sure does suck.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:41
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I think people are mostly talking past each other. The idea of 'engineered' famines are generally objected to because of the implications with respect to the idea of deliberate genocide. (I also question whether significant reform could have really been implemented in 3-4 years to forestall the effects of the famine.)
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Jan 28, 2016 15:43
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feedmegin posted:An Austrian or Czech rifle in WW2 would indeed be rather a rare thing Actually they were used in huge numbers. The Czechs made a bunch of mauser-pattern rifles in the 20s and also bought up a ton of WW1 era surplus. Those weapons were widely distributed to both German rear-area formations (think police units) and the various security troops raised from the local populations in Eastern Europe. Same for the m95 rifle that was the bread and butter of the Austro-Hungarian military. Austria shortened a bunch of them down to carbine length between the wars and it served a similar second-line function.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:Actually they were used in huge numbers. The Czechs made a bunch of mauser-pattern rifles in the 20s and also bought up a ton of WW1 era surplus. Those weapons were widely distributed to both German rear-area formations (think police units) and the various security troops raised from the local populations in Eastern Europe. Same for the m95 rifle that was the bread and butter of the Austro-Hungarian military. Austria shortened a bunch of them down to carbine length between the wars and it served a similar second-line function. That's kind of what I meant though, by World War 2 they weren't Austrian or Czech rifles any more, they were German. 
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Jan 28, 2016 15:53
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Did foreign origin small arms used by Germany have a country index at the end of their designation like tanks did?
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Jan 28, 2016 16:08
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It's three in the afternoon: time for the special forces on Twitter to fall over when climbing a fence! 100 Years Ago Back to Africa; the Empire just can't stop looking at Tanzania with covetous eyes. The bestest mates in Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria meet up to carve up Albania; General Sarrail is now behaving like a full-on military governor in Salonika; on the Somme, Frise takes a serious pasting; and Flora Sandes gets officially sworn into the Serbian Army. The world conspicuously fails to end in response. edit: Name of the Day: Eustace Henry William Tennyson d'Eyncourt, Director of Naval Construction, chairman of the Landships Committee. (Usually known as "Tennyson d'Eyncourt".) Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 16:13
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Ensign Expendable posted:Did foreign origin small arms used by Germany have a country index at the end of their designation like tanks did? Yes. The SVT-40, for example, was the SIG 259(r) (SIG = Selbstlade Infantriegewehr I assume). feedmegin posted:That's kind of what I meant though, by World War 2 they weren't Austrian or Czech rifles any more, they were German. This makes a huge difference in the price of the weapons. For better or for worse it's not seen as a "WW2 German rifle" but as an inter-war Czech or Austrian gun that might have been used by a police formation in the Ukraine.
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Jan 28, 2016 16:16
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Ensign Expendable posted:Did foreign origin small arms used by Germany have a country index at the end of their designation like tanks did? Do you even have to ask? http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/138-equipment/equipment/4257-fremden-geraet-captured-small-arms The Dutch M95 rifle was more or less the same as the Austrian rifle by the way.
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Jan 28, 2016 16:19
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Post-WW2, a lot of German K98 rifles ended up in the hands of the Haganah and the early IDF. It's not uncommon to find Israeli Mausers that have both the Nazi eagle and the Star of David stamped right next to each other on the reciever.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:04
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lenoon posted:Edit: as I wrote that out, I realised that I remember a crazy amount of detail based on some books I read a few years ago, and also that the parallels to the current economic crisis are horrifically obvious This is why I like history - you learn that this sorta poo poo's been going on for a long long time 
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Jan 28, 2016 17:09
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yes. The SVT-40, for example, was the SIG 259(r) (SIG = Selbstlade Infantriegewehr I assume). How is this not at all confusing with a Sturm Infanteriegeschuetz?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:20
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No more confusing than calling everything M(odel)- or Mk. something.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:35
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Ensign Expendable posted:How is this not at all confusing with a Sturm Infanteriegeschuetz? Wasn't that some gently caress-off huge self propelled gun? My guess is that context plays a big role. And yeah, same as having both an M1 Rifle and an M1 Tank (plus an M1 carbine which is not related to the rifle in any way)
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Jan 28, 2016 17:38
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Fangz posted:(I also question whether significant reform could have really been implemented in 3-4 years to forestall the effects of the famine.) The fact they didn't even try is pretty damning though
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Jan 28, 2016 17:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:Wasn't that some gently caress-off huge self propelled gun? My guess is that context plays a big role. Yup, that was a schwere Infanteriegeschuetz 33 (not confusing because it's sIG, not SIG) on a PzI Ausf. B chassis. And I mean the entire gun, wheels and all. It was 3.5 meters tall and hilariously overweight. Also my phone corrects "Infanteriegeschuetz" into "infantry rushes chefs" which is also a relevant military history statement.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:45
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Koramei posted:The fact they didn't even try is pretty damning though Well, now you know how I feel about our continuing failure on dealing with climate change.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:48
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Nebakenezzer posted:This is why I like history - you learn that this sorta poo poo's been going on for a long long time To be honest the mental image of some future goon on a space-forum or whatever utterly ripping into cameron for callous disregard for human life on a massive scale makes me smile more.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:49
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Future historians will probably debate whether the mythical people known as Britons were actually humans or just a folkloric explanation for chaos and disaster across several continents, like how we treat the Sea Peoples today.Cyrano4747 posted:And yeah, same as having both an M1 Rifle and an M1 Tank (plus an M1 carbine which is not related to the rifle in any way) Really, the army dropped the ball. The could have simplified their logistics enormously if they just designated everything M1. "We ordered twenty M1 rations but you sent us grenades!" "Okay, we'll fix that." the next day, twenty rubber dinghies arrive.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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Koramei posted:The fact they didn't even try is pretty damning though They could have stopped all exports of grain until the crops recovered which would have mitigated it somewhat. They did it for the previous famine which wasn't even big enough to merit its own Wikipedia article. Wolverine from the X-Men has more words written about him on Wikipedia than multiple Irish famines though so that's not a fair assessment.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:59
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Eej posted:Wolverine from the X-Men has more words written about him on Wikipedia than multiple Irish famines though so that's not a fair assessment. Looking forward to spacegoons debating whether or not wolverine was an exaggeration of a warrior who got lucky recovering from injuries or a myth created to explain hospitals also.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:19
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JcDent posted:You can teach a man to run and march, shoot and stab another man with a bayonet, but getting him to stay away from cheap floosies is impossible. Venereal disease was an incredible problem for most of human history. I got a rare chance to visit the hospital wing at Ellis Island, which never got reopened and done up into a museum like the rest of the place and is still a post-apocalyptic horror show. Their venereal disease wing was the same size as the wings for tuberculosis and "psychotics".
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Jan 28, 2016 18:55
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Trigger warning: Tank Destroyer chat from Ensign Expendable
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Jan 28, 2016 20:17
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Alchenar posted:Trigger warning: Tank Destroyer chat from Ensign Expendable I'm very triggered (in a very adult way)
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Jan 28, 2016 22:27
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Why do people think the Irish famines were genocides? I'm not seeing how anyone can think the House of Commons actively wants to genocide Ireland, unless it is filled with British Hitlers. Is profit at all costs really that unbelievable to some people? From a pragmatic perspective, genocides are very rarely a good idea.
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Jan 28, 2016 22:52
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Hazzard posted:Why do people think the Irish famines were genocides? I'm not seeing how anyone can think the House of Commons actively wants to genocide Ireland, unless it is filled with British Hitlers. Is profit at all costs really that unbelievable to some people? Genocide is a term with pretty loose definition and a lot of utility from a rhetorical perspective.
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Jan 28, 2016 22:59
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lenoon posted:Edit: as I wrote that out, I realised that I remember a crazy amount of detail based on some books I read a few years ago, and also that the parallels to the current economic crisis are horrifically obvious I guess, based on what you said, that the short answer to the question I asked is that issues of class have been disguised as issues of ethnicity in the education I received. Somehow I am unsurprised. Hazzard posted:Why do people think the Irish famines were genocides? I'm not seeing how anyone can think the House of Commons actively wants to genocide Ireland, unless it is filled with British Hitlers. Is profit at all costs really that unbelievable to some people?
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Jan 28, 2016 23:36
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It's not genocide, except I suppose in the slightly absent minded sense of "it would be better if the Irish Catholics weren't there". It is not an actively genocidal frame of mind, but one where a famine fits into both a moral narrative ("these people are incapable of bootstrapping themselves out of the situation, so let them die") and a political one ("Ulster is Protestant, and organised differently but let's ignore that, and therefore more Protestants = good"). The question was that whether it was engineered, not whether it was genocidal. It can't be considered a deliberate attempt to kill all Irish Catholics. It can be seen as a situation that was set up and allowed to run, despite the clear warning signs, widely discussed knowledge and explicitly stated findings of a Royal Commission on poverty and potential implications of monoculture, that everything would turn to poo poo with a cost of millions of lives. The government was not genocidal, but it certainly engineered the situation to the point where famine was the only foreseeable outcome and they knew that. I would delve back into Hansard, but Jesus Christ the third person narrative used in mid 19th century parliamentary debates raises my blood pressure to dangerous levels. Edit: I'm fairly sure they used third person in the transcription, which makes sense, but it's still bloody annoying Edit again: It is worth saying that with the Indian famines, it was apathy and profit unbridled. I don't think in those cases (though I could check) that the loss of millions of lives in, say, the Hindu population was seen as an unintended but acceptable side effect so that more land could be opened up to good, say, Muslim tenants. lenoon fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 23:50
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Hazzard posted:Why do people think the Irish famines were genocides? I'm not seeing how anyone can think the House of Commons actively wants to genocide Ireland, unless it is filled with British Hitlers. Is profit at all costs really that unbelievable to some people? Yeah, the famines always seemed really difficult to paint as genocide to me too. The goal was to suck as much money out of the land as possible, and if a bunch of Irish happen to starve to death in the process, well that's their own fault. It's a real tragedy, but it's not at all in the same vein as things like the Holocaust, a lot of the stuff that went down with Native Americans, and our lovely Residential Schools.  The tricky one to me is the Ukrainian famines/holodomor. I feel like people are still really invested in the identity of that for modern political reasons, but I personally don't think the relative share of terrible management vs malice is actually very clear in the historical record. Maybe I'm out of date though.
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Jan 29, 2016 00:35
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:The tricky one to me is the Ukrainian famines/holodomor. I feel like people are still really invested in the identity of that for modern political reasons, but I personally don't think the relative share of terrible management vs malice is actually very clear in the historical record. Maybe I'm out of date though. I'd say that it's not that tenuous to say that if the holodomor is genocide then the British empire most certainly is. More than that, it's real hard to tell because it's so contentious.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:28
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I'm looking for a picture of a Soviet A-7-A radio in action during the war. I need to see what it looked like set up with the field antenna and I'm not quite sure where to look.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:36
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xthetenth posted:I'd say that it's not that tenuous to say that if the holodomor is genocide then the British empire most certainly is. More than that, it's real hard to tell because it's so contentious. The question is whether it was due to mismanagement or malice. Something like the German Hunger Plan can certainly be described as genocide because the whole point was to let the population die. The deaths were a desired end goal, not just the by product of negligence or incompetence. I don't know the British example, but is there a good way to point to someone choosing those policies because they would lead to deaths? The problem with the Holodomor is that we don't really have access to the information that we would need to call it genocide or tragic mismanagement. If those record exist chances are they're deep in the kind of archives we'll never see. On the one hand there was no love lost between the Russians and the Ukrainians in that era. On the other hand there are other examples of major changes in the structure of agriculture during modernization - especially in communist systems - leading to famine through hosed up distribution - e.g. the Great Leap Forward in China.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:The question is whether it was due to mismanagement or malice. Something like the German Hunger Plan can certainly be described as genocide because the whole point was to let the population die. The deaths were a desired end goal, not just the by product of negligence or incompetence. I don't know the British example, but is there a good way to point to someone choosing those policies because they would lead to deaths? Agricultural records aren't particularly carefully protected. In fact there's a historian I follow on LJ who's gathering materials for his book on Soviet famines of the 20s and 30s right now. The French Army! posted:I'm looking for a picture of a Soviet A-7-A radio in action during the war. I need to see what it looked like set up with the field antenna and I'm not quite sure where to look. Page 7 of the manual has what you need: http://www.rkk-museum.ru/documents/archives/images/2-44-03.pdf Edit: page 13 has a zoomed out view to show how to install an antenna in a ravine. Page 15 shows you what to do in a city, page 16 what to do in a trench or a dugout. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 02:13
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Alchenar posted:Trigger warning: Tank Destroyer chat from Ensign Expendable Yes. Yesssssss. Dehumanize yourself and face to tankchat.
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Jan 29, 2016 02:32
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Ensign Expendable posted:Agricultural records aren't particularly carefully protected. In fact there's a historian I follow on LJ who's gathering materials for his book on Soviet famines of the 20s and 30s right now.
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Jan 29, 2016 02:39
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Ensign Expendable posted:Agricultural records aren't particularly carefully protected. In fact there's a historian I follow on LJ who's gathering materials for his book on Soviet famines of the 20s and 30s right now. Yes, but records that might show that it was a government policy to starve people are probably located somewhere other than the agriculture ministry. Using the example of the Hunger Plan, that emanated from the senior levels of the party and military, not inside the economics ministry. That said I'dl ove to see a concrete answer one way or another so I hope that book gets lots of good documentation.
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Jan 29, 2016 02:59
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depending on who you ask, the holodomor/great leap forward are Victims of Communism, and the irish/indian famines are Victims of Capitalism
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Jan 29, 2016 03:05
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Adventures in blindly Google translating old books. I put in this sentence: "Der Kommandant hat vorsorglich die Maschinen auf Rückwärtsgang anspringen lassen, um zu verhindern, daß die Leute allzusehr von dem berüchtigten Strudel erfaßt werden oder in die mahlenden Schrauben geraten." What it says is that the Chief Engineer of a sinking ship set her engines into reverse so that survivors abandoning ship wouldn't get chopped up by the still-turning propellers. But what the gently caress does the "Strudel" part mean? Is that an idiom? EDIT: Turns out it means "whirlpool" or "eddy", which is exactly what I thought it meant, so this post is now me looking foolish. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 03:57
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Adventures in blindly Google translating old books.
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Jan 29, 2016 03:59
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HEY GAL posted:it means vortex, swirl, or eddy, as of water From the context I figured as much, but the image of battle-scarred German sailors abandoning ship and trying to avoid the deadly fruit pastries lurking in the waters amuses me greatly.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:01
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Wouldn't stopping the engines completely be safer?
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Jan 29, 2016 04:02
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