Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

# ? Jan 27, 2016 19:50

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:12

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Thoren posted:

Are you looking to do any more beta swaps? PM me or leave your email if so.

How do these beta swaps work? Do you swap the whole novel, or just a few chapters? Is there a dedicated website/SA thread for it?

# ? Jan 27, 2016 21:12

doug fuckey: Jun 7, 2007; hella greenbacks

Gorefluff posted:

I've actually tried to read Battlefield Earth a couple times and could never get past the first 50 pages.

I know the concept of humanity being reset isn't super original. I read a book by Graham Hancock called Fingerprints of the Gods, which is a non-fiction look at lost civilizations. He calls us a "culture with amnesia" and presents evidence of advanced cultures that, for example, built the pyramids and sites like Gobekli Tepe over 10,000 years ago, but then we were suddenly dragged back to hunter gatherer status worldwide by an asteroid impact. This also happened before some 70,000 years ago when a super volcano eruption in Indonesia reduced total human population to a few thousand.

Anyway, I found the idea fascinating, and pictured the far far future descendants of us mucking about with loincloths and spears long after everything we ever wrote down was lost. So yeah it's post-apocalyptic for sure technically, although I don't think it really dwells on the typical images and themes that most post-apocalyptic fiction orbits. I'm just getting ready to start querying in the next couple weeks so I wanted to see if anyone had some other opinions.

Read A Canticle for Leibowitz, it's basically this idea except it's not stone age, it's like dark ages/middle ages.

# ? Jan 28, 2016 06:17

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Shageletic posted:

How do these beta swaps work? Do you swap the whole novel, or just a few chapters? Is there a dedicated website/SA thread for it?

follow yr heart

# ? Jan 28, 2016 12:56

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

^^^ Okay dokay

Zesty Mordant posted:

Read A Canticle for Leibowitz, it's basically this idea except it's not stone age, it's like dark ages/middle ages.

Isn't this an entire genre? I'm thinking of The Tripod trilogy, a bunch of other sci-fi book titles I can't remember, maybe even the Time Machine.

# ? Jan 28, 2016 15:44

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Oh man, I thought about the Tripod Trilogy today actually. Thinking back to the really implausible scifi books you read as a kid after reading hard scifi is weird, even if that series at least tried to keep things realistic.

# ? Jan 29, 2016 02:52

NiffStipples: Jun 3, 2011

HandsomeMrFooFoo posted:

Heyoo~

So I've had my first beta go through chapter one of my YA fantasy draft, but I'm really torn on their advice. We're doing a swap and I've critiqued their work, but it's like they're too in love with their characters to dial the prose back. The beta doesn't like that I don't dwell on needless descriptions and wants everything spoonfed. It seems they really dig the George R.R Martin backstory nonsense too, but it bores me because nothing is happening. While I feel their work is riddled with it (to the point where my eyes glaze over and I've called them out on it), it's just a really strange experience because their other beta encouraged them to keep it. Our genres are both fantasy, but the styles are vastly different. My gut instinct is to only let environment and description slip in when it affects the POV character. What they're wearing, the layout of the building they're in--all of it seems irrelevant if it has no bearing on their immediate feelings or actions.

Any advice on things like this? Do you cherry-pick the advice? I'd hate to fill my MS with purple prose, but geez...if that's the market and if it's what people expect, I'll do it. But it just feels so...wrong. :/

I would also be interested in checking out your work and maybe doing a swap in the near future. My preference of reading/writing sounds much like what you're trying to achieve in audience. I become horribly irritated when reading even the slightest of dribble that explains anticipated character reactions or things like the metric weight of the "McGuffin Sword" that King Shitbucket pissed on roughly 5000 years ago. My Bullshit-dar is unfortunately stuck on max. I figure its only natural for us to formulate theories on why a writer deemed necessary to mention something, then immediately try to identify why they thought it should've impress us. I dunno though... As previously mentioned, some people just enjoy reading about all of the things, and for no good reason too. I'm a firm believer that in order to draw better picture, you should make strokes instead of laying down one continous line.

If you're trying to make a living off writing, go where the money is and go at it hard.

PM me sometime.

NiffStipples fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jan 30, 2016

# ? Jan 30, 2016 13:45

SkaAndScreenplays: Dec 11, 2013; by Pragmatica

Zesty Mordant posted:

Read A Canticle for Leibowitz, it's basically this idea except it's not stone age, it's like dark ages/middle ages.

I haven't read that book since 7th grade.

I wonder how much better it is now that I understand adult humor.

# ? Jan 30, 2016 15:22

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

A long time ago, on a page far away, someone asked for advice about physical descriptions and I found some in various books I had laying around. I just started reading Tale of Two Cities, and have I found some more super-good descriptions that I thought were worth sharing.

Charles Dickens posted:

Except on the crown, which was raggedly bald, he had stiff, black hair standing jaggedly all over it, and growing downhill almost to his broad, blunt nose. It was so like smith's work, so much more like the top of a strongly spiked wall than a head of hair, that the best of players at leap-frog might have declined him, as the most dangerous man in the world to go over.

Second one is long, but worth it, IMO

Charles Dickens posted:

The Concord bed-chamber being always assigned to a passenger by the mail, and passengers by the mail being always heavily wrapped up from head to foot, the room had the odd interest for the establishment of the Royal George, that although but one kind of man was seen to go into it, all kinds and varieties of men came out of it. Consequently, another drawer, and two porters, and several maids, and the landlady, were all loitering by accident at various points of the road between the Concord and the coffee-room, when a gentleman of sixty, formally dressed in a brownout of clothes, pretty well worn, but very well kept, with large square cuffs and large flaps to the pockets, passed along on his way to breakfast.
...
Very orderly and methodical he looked, with a hand on each knee, and a loud watch ticking a sonorous sermon under his flapped waistcoat, as though it pitted its gravity and longevity against the levity and evanescence of the brisk fire. He had a good leg, and was a little vain of it, for his brown stockings fitted sleek and close, and were of a fine texture; his shoes and buckles, too, though plain, were trip. He wore an odd little sleek crisp flaxen wig, setting very close to his head: which wig, it is to be presumed, was made of hair, but which looked far more as though it were spun from filaments of silk or glass. His linen, though not of a fineness in accordance with his stockings, was as white as the tops of the waves that broke upon the neighboring beach, or the specks of sail that glinted in the sunlight far at sea. A face, habitually suppressed and quieted, was still lighted up under the quaint wig by a pair of moist bright eyes that it must have cost their owner, in years gone by, some pains to drill to the composed and reserved expression of Tellson's Bank. He had a healthy colour in his cheeks, and his face, though lined, bore few traces of anxiety. But, perhaps the confidential bachelor clerks in Tellson's Bank were principally occupied with the cares of other people; and perhaps second-hand cares, like second-hand clothes, come easily off and on.

Isn't that just delightful?!

For the most part, you can't really get away with this kind of description these days, but I still think it's useful (in addition to being delightful) to modern authors. Probably the most notable difference between Dickens and most contemporary stories is his use of the third-person omniscient POV (though you see it occasionally, for example The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making). The omniscient point-of-view is criticized for distancing readers from the action, for being confusing, and for encouraging embarrassing foibles such as the infamous "dear reader," where the author directly addresses the audience (although that temptation exists in first-person narratives as well). On the other hand, it gives you a great deal of freedom, because you can show what anyone or everyone is thinking whenever you want. Having read only a handful of the classics, I humbly beg anyone more familiar to chime in, but I know that the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible, and the Illiad and Odyssey are all in the omniscient point-of-view. I do think the preference, if not the concept, of a limited point of view, is relatively recent. Again, I beg any expert on said subject to post a lot about it.

Aaaaaanyway, This scene:

Look at how well he's set up an opportunity to give the description. It combines setting (a well-staffed hotel) with precise observation of human nature (curiosity and strategic "accidental" positioning to gratify it). Really, Dickens is positively breath-taking when it comes to human nature. Plus, it provides a much better opportunity for giving an objective description of the character, vs. the character himself looking in the mirror (far more common in published books than you might think, given its disparagement amongst writing advice forums), or being observed by another character. For example, it's unlikely that this man himself would think to himself "my calves are quite sexy for my age, which is why i buy only the finest stockings--finer than all the rest of my clothes in fact!" And it would also be a very particular kind of person who would note that about someone else. Unless you are reading Regency-era romances, in which case such observations are common-place, but chances are you are not. But seriously, what conclusions would you draw about a character if s/he noticed someones socks and drew sweeping conclusions from them?*

And for use of simile. Maaaaaaan oh man, those similes! They are really laid on thick in a way that I 'm not sure many readers would appreciate these days. But on the other hand, once you are primed for Dickens, aren't they lovely? And he goes on with it--the oceanic description of his cuffs is reflective of his presence in the seaside town of Dover, which itself gets an amazing description a few paragraphs later. Also, when I read this book in high school, I remember the teacher making quite the big deal out of a "golden thread" running throughout it, and I think that our bank clerk, with his fine flaxen wig that appears to be made out of silk rather than hair, may be the symbolic start of it. Quite good, don't you think?

*It occurred to me while writing this that I actually have a number of observations about socks:
1) my boyfriend wears exclusively white athletic socks, and due to his height and extreme thinness, his jeans are nearly always an inch too short at least ( I am slowly secretly replacing them with well-fitted jeans), so if he sits down, you can see far too much of them. On the other hand, all he ever wears is jeans and hoodies and sneakers, and it's San Francisco, so it's fine. ish.
2) I hand-knit a pair of socks for my boyfriend to wear around the house and they ended up being far too small in my opinion, but he claims to like them and wears them. I have no idea if he is sincere or not.
3) One of my boyfriend and my's favorite movies is Brain Candy, in which there is a joke about the rear end in a top hat CEO demanding that his employees roll out a giant carpet that matches his socks every day.
4) I once went to court with a sleazy landlord who wore a white suit with a white shirt, white alligator shoes, a teal tie, and teal socks. It looked loving amazing
5) I once worked with an extremely dapper dude who loved mixing and matching the unfortunately small number of accessories available to fashionable men, and who thus always wore amazingly classy socks or no socks at all. (Look at some men's fashion blogs if this doesn't make sense to you. Then be like "what the gently caress, this is duuuuuuuumb.")

What conclusions do you draw from that, eh?

# ? Feb 6, 2016 13:04

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

My newest approach to descriptions, (oh come on stop rolling your eyes everybody one of these times I'll give good advice) is to write your book as if it's the sequel. Don't front-load the book with descriptions, give a little at a time, pretend like everybody already knows what they look like.

By the way I'll be releasing my Writers-How-To book next week for the small price of HAHAHA oh poo poo I kill me.

# ? Feb 8, 2016 00:57

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

I've thrown out 550,000 words on this book :shepicide:

But I think this draft is finally starting to come together!

# ? Feb 8, 2016 01:28

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

General Battuta posted:

I've thrown out 550,000 words on this book

But I think this draft is finally starting to come together!

you're a goddamned inspiration :cheers:

# ? Feb 8, 2016 09:07

Bubble Bobby: Jan 28, 2005

General Battuta posted:

I've thrown out 550,000 words on this book

But I think this draft is finally starting to come together!

How long was your original draft? Or have you just been erasing and rewriting as you go?

# ? Feb 9, 2016 02:33

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

I've tossed out each draft somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 words. It varies a lot.

But now I've got something I'm really starting to like!

# ? Feb 9, 2016 05:34

Bubble Bobby: Jan 28, 2005

General Battuta posted:

I've tossed out each draft somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 words. It varies a lot.

But now I've got something I'm really starting to like!

That's serious commitment for one story. Good luck dude

# ? Feb 10, 2016 01:09

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

NiffStipples posted:

I would also be interested in checking out your work and maybe doing a swap in the near future. My preference of reading/writing sounds much like what you're trying to achieve in audience. I become horribly irritated when reading even the slightest of dribble that explains anticipated character reactions or things like the metric weight of the "McGuffin Sword" that King Shitbucket pissed on roughly 5000 years ago. My Bullshit-dar is unfortunately stuck on max. I figure its only natural for us to formulate theories on why a writer deemed necessary to mention something, then immediately try to identify why they thought it should've impress us. I dunno though... As previously mentioned, some people just enjoy reading about all of the things, and for no good reason too. I'm a firm believer that in order to draw better picture, you should make strokes instead of laying down one continous line.

If you're trying to make a living off writing, go where the money is and go at it hard.

PM me sometime.

I've got a chapter of the fantasy novel I'm writing that I'm trying to skim down to the bone, but by its very nature is pretty fanciful and baroque. If any of you are interested in a chapter swap lemme know, I need all the help I can get.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 01:10

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

General Battuta posted:

I've thrown out 550,000 words on this book

But I think this draft is finally starting to come together!

My book is 7 books!

# ? Feb 11, 2016 18:33

Hungry: Jul 14, 2006

General Battuta posted:

I've tossed out each draft somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 words. It varies a lot.

But now I've got something I'm really starting to like!

I'm curious; what makes you decide each time to toss out a draft and move on? Do you try to push to an ending, or do you reach a wall and stop and realise it's easier and more sensible to start over, or something else?

# ? Feb 13, 2016 23:45

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

If I've hit anywhere between 60k and 100k and the story isn't telling itself � if the established character conflicts and plot threads aren't naturally converging, conflicts bouncing off each other and escalating, basically if the story hasn't started working a bit like a fission bomb where each scene fires off a couple threads that trigger a couple more scenes naturally and inevitably ��then I need to start over.

In a lot of these drafts I failed to get the necessary characters on scene fast enough, with immediate and tangible motives.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 00:00

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Also, on a very basic quantitative level, I was letting my scenes run too long, 2000 to 5000 words. That was bleeding off energy I hadn't really built yet.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 00:02

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

i just wanted to post something. a good way to write is to use less adverbs

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:12

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

spectres of autism posted:

i just wanted to post something. a good way to write is to use less adverbs

im gonna emptyquote you

# ? Feb 14, 2016 18:27

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

spectres of autism posted:

i just wanted to post something. a good way to write is to use less adverbs

fewer

# ? Feb 14, 2016 19:56

SimonChris: Apr 24, 2008; The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.; Grimey Drawer

spectres of autism posted:

i just wanted to post something. a good way to write is to use less adverbs

But what if you use them goodly?

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:14

Siddhartha Glutamate: Oct 3, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

spectres of autism posted:

i just wanted to post something. a good way to write is to use less adverbs

I realize that quoting you is becoming something of a thing, but I wanted to tell you this for awhile and now seemed like a good time.

I love your AV so much I wish I had a plush doll of him, so I could cuddle with him. I am a grown man and I want a plush doll.

Help.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 21:26

Hungry: Jul 14, 2006

General Battuta posted:

Also, on a very basic quantitative level, I was letting my scenes run too long, 2000 to 5000 words. That was bleeding off energy I hadn't really built yet.

Again, this makes me curious about your process! Do you mind expanding on why the scenes were too long? Were they simply too complicated, trying to do too many things at once?

# ? Feb 14, 2016 21:39

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Almost the opposite! If it took 2700 words to get through a simple conversation, that had better be a drat fine conversation, right? 5000 words is an entire short story!

But it's 2700 discussing military politics and intrigue, and it'd be way more effective if the reader didn't need any of that discussed ��ideally the story's already taught these facts, and the conversation pivots on some interpersonal tension, 'will she make this decision' or 'will they be friends'.

I think a lot about the reader's energy. If you're coming in from something easy, fun, and cathartic to read, like an action scene or a love scene or a big personal decision, they have energy you can spend. But if you've been doing a lot of buildup � explaining things, pushing the tension car up the roller coaster, whatever ��they may get exhausted with a big sprawling conversation. It's like stand-up comedy, where wiping and going to a new scene is a great trick for refreshing the reader's emotional state and creating a sense of progress.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:17

POOL IS CLOSED: Jul 14, 2011; I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.; Pillbug

An agent's solicited a query from me for a manuscript I don't really like and now I'm nervous. :ohdear:

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:39

The Saddest Rhino: Apr 29, 2009; Put it all together.
Solve the world.
One conversation at a time.

SimonChris posted:

But what if you use them goodly?

Do it but godly

RedTonic posted:

An agent's solicited a query from me for a manuscript I don't really like and now I'm nervous.

Congrats!

# ? Feb 15, 2016 02:43

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

General Battuta posted:

Almost the opposite! If it took 2700 words to get through a simple conversation, that had better be a drat fine conversation, right? 5000 words is an entire short story!

But it's 2700 discussing military politics and intrigue, and it'd be way more effective if the reader didn't need any of that discussed ��ideally the story's already taught these facts, and the conversation pivots on some interpersonal tension, 'will she make this decision' or 'will they be friends'.

I think a lot about the reader's energy. If you're coming in from something easy, fun, and cathartic to read, like an action scene or a love scene or a big personal decision, they have energy you can spend. But if you've been doing a lot of buildup � explaining things, pushing the tension car up the roller coaster, whatever ��they may get exhausted with a big sprawling conversation. It's like stand-up comedy, where wiping and going to a new scene is a great trick for refreshing the reader's emotional state and creating a sense of progress.

stevenfuckingerikson.txt

# ? Feb 15, 2016 08:06

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Hey, so, now that I've finished up my grad school application I've swung back around to editing my book. I'm going back and pruning a lot of purple prose, but in the meantime, could I get some help with my query letter? I've been reading a lot of the queryshark site, but feedback would still be great, even if this is just a terrible first draft.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bGKIuyBd7Bgg1vZ5iBTUIF1wTGInkCp-XISa321EiLg/pub

# ? Feb 22, 2016 00:21

newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

quote:

Cursed with supernatural strength and a shortened lifespan, she can�t seem to catch a break even in a New York where demons and magic run rampant.

The word 'even' doesn't really work here. Surely it would be harder to catch a break in a New York where demons and magic run rampant? Even implies that you would be more likely to catch a break in that sort of New York. Do you mean 'especially'?

Also isn't everyone born to die?

newtestleper fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Feb 23, 2016

# ? Feb 23, 2016 10:26

newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

screwed that up royal

# ? Feb 23, 2016 10:28

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

It is supposed to be "even", because originally the line was "even in a city full of magic and opportunity". I think I'll change it back to that though, since it doesn't even make sense without later context. And born to die was my just my poor attempt at a noir-ish opening hook that leads into the next sentence, where it's revealed that she'll die young. I might go back tonight and take a second crack at it (and hopefully make things clearer).

# ? Feb 23, 2016 13:43

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

"Will the investigation reveal a disturbing conspiracy?"

I hope the answer to this question is 'yes,' but either way I think you should cut this sentence. Same with the next clause, "Wanting to crack the case herself and way out of her league". They feel like filler.

"Charlie ropes in two of her co-workers for help. Greg Greene, an expert in magic, and Jakob Weaver, a jerk with no special skills, are the only people she can trust."

This is great! It has voice and humor. If you can do more of this in the query, awesome

"Haunted by the past and hunted by monsters, chased from trinket shops and into the sewers, no one ever said it would be an easy story to break."

This is a weak finish. Find something specific to escalate the stakes and make it impossible for the agent to skip your book. Out and out spoil what they uncover, if you need to: 'a conspiracy to XYZ led by ABC from her past.' Don't be shy about laying out specific plot details.

# ? Feb 23, 2016 17:07

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Okay, back. I had to catch up with some other things first, but here's my crack at a second draft. Not sure why I was so coy with plot details the first time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VsofgbUfijJLWIsSXYZ9pdHG9CTFSvOP1MERTVLRvlM/pub

# ? Feb 27, 2016 01:24

newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

"Their investigation doesn't bode well"
I'm pretty sure bode isn't used correctly here.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 02:08

change my name: Aug 27, 2007; Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.

Yeah that's not right. Changed.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 03:59

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

I hate it when a protagonist is a writer of any kind. Except maybe a journalist.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 06:11

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:12

Djeser: Mar 22, 2013; it's crow time again

Hey, bandmates of my prog rock band, should we write a concept album about how the power of rock saves the world?

# ? Feb 28, 2016 09:07

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