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jivjov posted:Almost from inception, Star Wars has been presented, marketed, and sold as an ongoing series of adventures. This expectation of continuity is nothing new. Incorrect expectations are the cause of at least 85% of nerd hate of good movies.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:00
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"I expect things" Others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI
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Jan 29, 2016 04:00
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Serf posted:I am still surprised that there are people who actually care about what is "canon" in Star Wars. I'm not sure there's anything more vapid to argue about. If you don't care about the continuity, or feel that it is vapid and not worth your time; then feel free to ignore it and go about your life (y'know, as opposed to shaming people who do enjoy it)
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Jan 29, 2016 04:00
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Bongo Bill posted:Incorrect expectations are the cause of at least 85% of nerd hate of good movies. Do you think I'm one of the insane prequel haters or something? I like all of the Star Wars films we've gotten this far. And yes, this includes Clone Wars.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:01
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jivjov posted:Because ideally, in a universe with an established continuity (such as Star Wars), everything will be part of that established continuity. If I prefer books to have pictures of dragons on the cover I'm not going to expect anyone to care when I criticize books that don't.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:01
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It is also a problem where other authors then have to read the canon (which can be hundreds of books), or have their work subject to some kind of loremasters scrutiny. Loremaster scrutiny should just be making sure star wars terms are used for things, not 'well luke can't be here now because hes doing X in these 3 novels'. Canon & Continuity outside of principle works (so like the movies) has a first pick problem too, because you are operating on a linear expanse of time that must be accounted for; authors who stake out their claim earlier then hold that time until the canon is wiped out. So you object to me calling anyone a dipshit, but just imagine that you have my scenario. A good author wants to write a book set after ROTJ where Luke is conflicted and in mourning or whatever, and its gonna be great, but some dipshit got in before him and wrote a bad book about Luke hopping in his Xwing right after the Ewok party and loving off to do something in a happy go lucky manner. Due to canon and continuity, our good author is barred from putting his novel in there. Or he has to do some what-if thing that 'saves' continuity for you, but puts the better book outside of your continuity. Now what if this book becomes half the fandoms 'head canon' because its so drat good, but other authors can't use it in their books or else they get pushed over to the alternate time line. OR worse, what if this book USURPS the bad books and RUINS CANON & CONTINUITY!!! Plus canon & continuity runs into the problems of 'the heroes are literally constantly adventuring/meeting influential people/doing stuff' at all times because you have to squeeze in every block of time. Its dumb. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 04:02
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jivjov posted:If you don't care about the continuity, or feel that it is vapid and not worth your time; then feel free to ignore it and go about your life (y'know, as opposed to shaming people who do enjoy it) I'm sorry that you feel shamed because you care about Star Wars canon, Jivjov. That must be incredibly hard on you.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:02
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jivjov posted:Do you think I'm one of the insane prequel haters or something? I like all of the Star Wars films we've gotten this far. And yes, this includes Clone Wars. No, but I do think that you got the incorrect idea that the importance of continuity is commutative. It's a high priority for a Star Wars book or card game to avoid contradicting a Star Wars movie (though, tangentially, they often only achieve this through a too-narrow literalist understanding of what constitutes contradiction). It's a low priority for a Star Wars movie to avoid contradicting a Star Wars book or card game.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:04
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Martman posted:Why is that ideal? If it's purely an issue of personal preference, why should your preference be catered to when it comes to marketing books? It is ideal because that is the point of having the established universe in the first place. If you have an ongoing continuity and then do not inform readers that a certain story is not part of that continuity, you're doing a bad job marketing and managing that continuity. If star wars was like Trek, and did not have the ongoing continuity between pretty much all the published media, then it no longer is important to delineate which ones are in continuity or not.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:04
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This is not true. The idea of a continuityverse was not A Thing like it is now where it's practically expected. There wasn't an MCU style twenty year plan. The idea of running roughshod over established continuity is weird and laughable because it is a completely arbitrary distinction that may as well treat, say, Star Wars as an MMORPG where authors are allowed to play with approved characters in a static setting but could never do anything meaningfully radical because we can't let the third Death Star be destroyed until 2024 after the official reveal of Snoke's hidden triplets. WhenA Setting is this big static playground it stifles storytelling that actually affects things in the setting because the Force must always be a thing because the Force Users are established character classes and the fans would not cope well with the death of the Force. If you don't allow stories to have an ending you just get an endless train of beginnings and middles. The Continuity is artifice. It isn't real. It isn't a tapestry woven by the Furies. Star Wars Brand Immersion Product can be anything you want it to be. You just have to believe. Sarkozymandias fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 04:05
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jivjov posted:So anything in continuity with any other story automatically starts as 'never good'. Good to know. Gotta be honest jiv, I have no idea how you're getting this from anything I've written. quote:I mean, I get it. Continuity for its own sake does not make something good. But DIScontinuity does not make a thing good either. Discontinuity is good IF being discontinuous serves a story better than being completely continuous to another story. I'm guessing you're a Metal Gear fan based on your avatar- Kojima broke continuity by retconning his own plot pretty much every time he made a new MGS game, and usually each new entry became thematically richer as a result. jivjov posted:Almost from inception, Star Wars has been presented, marketed, and sold as an ongoing series of adventures. This expectation of continuity is nothing new. Empire Strikes Back breaks continuity by retconning Darth Vader to have formerly been Anakin Skywalker. And literally everyone is cool with it because it's such an excellent scene in the movie for so many reasons. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 04:05
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Jerkface posted:It is also a problem where other authors then have to read the canon (which can be hundreds of books), or have their work subject to some kind of loremasters scrutiny. Loremaster scrutiny should just be making sure star wars terms are used for things, not 'well luke can't be here now because hes doing X in these 3 novels'. Canon & Continuity outside of principle works (so like the movies) has a first pick problem too, because you are operating on a linear expanse of time that must be accounted for; authors who stake out their claim earlier then hold that time until the canon is wiped out. So you object to me calling anyone a dipshit, but just imagine that you have my scenario. A good author wants to write a book set after ROTJ where Luke is conflicted and in mourning or whatever, and its gonna be great, but some dipshit got in before him and wrote a bad book about Luke hopping in his Xwing right after the Ewok party and loving off to do something in a happy go lucky manner. Due to canon and continuity, our good author is barred from putting his novel in there. Or he has to do some what-if thing that 'saves' continuity for you, but puts the better book outside of your continuity. Now what if this book becomes half the fandoms 'head canon' because its so drat good, but other authors can't use it in their books or else they get pushed over to the alternate time line. OR worse, what if this book USURPS the bad books and RUINS CANON & CONTINUITY!!! Or have this "better novel" set after the story in between that came before. The simple addition of a line to the effect of "the events on the second Death Star finally caught up with Luke and started to weigh on him" suddenly preserves everything. The happy go lucky story written by your "dipshit" still happened, the more somber story gets to take place too, and nobody's work is made non-canon.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:07
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Raxivace posted:Empire Strikes Back breaks continuity by retconning Darth Vader to have formerly been Anakin Skywalker. And literally everyone is cool with it because it's such an excellent scene in the movie for so many reasons. There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that Lucas had the parentage thing nailed down since before episode IV came out. That said, the brother/sister thing was an obvious retcon.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:09
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If that line isn't included, what are the consequences? Does an all consuming wall of white silence encroach upon the ivory tower? I am unclear on the stakes because this idea of canon is pretty metaphysical.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:09
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jivjov posted:It is ideal because that is the point of having the established universe in the first place. If you have an ongoing continuity and then do not inform readers that a certain story is not part of that continuity, you're doing a bad job marketing and managing that continuity.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:10
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jivjov posted:There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that Lucas had the parentage thing nailed down since before episode IV came out. That said, the brother/sister thing was an obvious retcon. Yeah. However ESB Vader is completely different from anh Vader.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:10
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Martman posted:You're saying "you" as if it's all one author or something. I'm imagining an author who is new to the Star Wars universe, writes a story they believe to fit in it, and don't really care if there's some minor conflicting plot point with another book. You say they're doing a bad job of managing a continuity, I say they're doing a good job of not caring about the continuity. The Story Group (and Leland and other folks as Lucas Licensing before that) exists to prevent such an oversight by a new author from happening. When they decide to commission a new novel, they can tell whatever author they want to tap for the project "hey, here's the general story we want, and here's the other things happening around that time" Random authors don't just get thrown in out of nowhere. E: the "you" I'm using is hypothetically putting you the reader in the shoes of said Story Group and/or Lucas Licensing people.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:12
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Jivjov, when you played with Star Wars toys as a child, did you make up your own adventures, or mainly re-enact scenes from the movies? Edit: this isn't a trap question. I am wondering whether your interest in the plot-as-presented went back that far. I do not have conclusions I will draw from your response, shaming or otherwise. Really just curious. homullus fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 04:13
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So is the story group more of a senate committee or is it more of a jedi council situation?
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Jan 29, 2016 04:14
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homullus posted:Jivjov, when you played with Star Wars toys as a child, did you make up your own adventures, or mainly re-enact scenes from the movies? Little of both really (but I never presumed that my made up tales [and this includes the Star Wars tabletop campaign that I run currently] were canonical.)
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Jan 29, 2016 04:14
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The only canon that matters is the one in your heart.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:16
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jivjov posted:Or have this "better novel" set after the story in between that came before. The simple addition of a line to the effect of "the events on the second Death Star finally caught up with Luke and started to weigh on him" suddenly preserves everything. The happy go lucky story written by your "dipshit" still happened, the more somber story gets to take place too, and nobody's work is made non-canon. No I'm sorry, better story requires starting from directly after ROTJ, so you cannot push it a week, a month, many months, a year into the future of star wars and still maintain the depth of emotion the well written novel would conjure. Also lmao you think some good writer needs to worry about some dipshits novel and write some hallpass line into his really good book. You are falling, again, into the continuity trap, of having these novels going sequentially forever and ever as writers stake out their claim of time. Lets amend the scenario. Imagine the dipshits book is still there, but now other dipshits got in before our good author and took all the time right after dipshits book up to 3 space years or whatever. So now our good author is really in a bind, and star wars becomes worse off for it because those 3 years are taken up by Luke destroying 10 new super weapons and befriending a force monkey instead of participating in a well written novel that speaks to the heart of the series.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:18
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jivjov posted:Little of both really (but I never presumed that my made up tales [and this includes the Star Wars tabletop campaign that I run currently] were canonical.) The presumptuousness of youth, when we all thought a random corporation didn't rightfully delineate the boundaries of our imaginations.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:19
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I don't think jivjov is dumb, but they clearly fall so far into the green side of this fascinating little chart that I think bridging the gap in communication that's been evident over the last page or so isn't gonna happen. The priorities for what they seem to want out of star wars (prolonged, expansive, cohesive engagement in an aesthetic and storyline as it plays out across all forms of media) and what SMG, cnut, bill, et al are pushing for, which is unburdened engagement with the film series as a film series, rather than as baggage-laden nerd-culture theology (or in the case of eu fans theosophy) are kinda at cross-purposes. Interestingly enough, I think that link (and whole site really) is one of the more fascinating and comprehensive manifestations of, uh, star wars-negative star wars fandom (as in much more interested in props, vehicles, setting, plot, and iconic images than story, thematic content, or message) out there. If you're unclear on what people have meant by that term, click around in there and witness the sheer number of words and effort this dude puts towards what essentially amounts to the least consequential and most arbitrary aspect of the films. e: just to be clear nothing in this post was intended to pick out any perspective or poster as Wrong About Starwar HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 04:22
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Jerkface posted:No I'm sorry, better story requires starting from directly after ROTJ, so you cannot push it a week, a month, many months, a year into the future of star wars and still maintain the depth of emotion the well written novel would conjure. Also lmao you think some good writer needs to worry about some dipshits novel and write some hallpass line into his really good book. Well, that author would hopefully have been told when he was commissioned that the story he would be writing couldn't take place starring Luke immediately after RotJ. And this conversation hopefully would have happened really early on, before he spent a lot of time writing that story. And now he can focus on writing an equally good story somewhere else in the vast tapestry that is the Star Wars universe. You're under this weird impression that authors just turn up and present their finished novels to the Story Group, when that's not how it works now and it's not how it worked pre-Disney.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:23
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jivjov posted:There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that Lucas had the parentage thing nailed down since before episode IV came out. That said, the brother/sister thing was an obvious retcon. I'd be curious to hear what this evidence is, and if any of it comes through in A New Hope. The brother/sister thing is a retcon too, but eh I'm kind of with SMG on it not being a particularly good one, if only because it gives an easy out to the love triangle.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:23
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Raxivace posted:I'd be curious to hear what this evidence is, and if any of it comes through in A New Hope. There's an anecdote about Lucas having a public dinner with someone and telling him about the "Vader = Luke's Dad" thing shortly after the release of ANH. I'd have to track down the names involved, its been a while since I looked that one up.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:27
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jivjov posted:Well, that author would hopefully have been told when he was commissioned that the story he would be writing couldn't take place starring Luke immediately after RotJ. And this conversation hopefully would have happened really early on, before he spent a lot of time writing that story. And now he can focus on writing an equally good story somewhere else in the vast tapestry that is the Star Wars universe. I am not under that impression, because my scenario works even under it. The good author, whose good book lives inside of them, cannot bring his book out due to hosed up continuity/canon, because the storygroup won't allow it. This is the only good star wars book they had in them, because they are not a star wars factory author whose job is to pump out 20 x-wing books worth of precious continuity.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:28
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Jerkface posted:I am not under that impression, because my scenario works even under it. The good author, whose good book lives inside of them, cannot bring his book out due to hosed up continuity/canon, because the storygroup won't allow it. This is the only good star wars book they had in them, because they are not a star wars factory author whose job is to pump out 20 x-wing books worth of precious continuity. If said author is unable to work within the framework of the Star Wars universe, perhaps he or she should write an original piece of fiction that is free of these burdensome shackles?? If you can't play by the rules of the franchise, then don't work for the franchise. EDIT: Or, make it an Infinities story. Ignore continuity and be honest about it.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:31
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Caring about continuity to the detriment of quality is weird. The EU are not historical documents.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:39
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jivjov posted:EDIT: Or, make it an Infinities story. Ignore continuity and be honest about it. holy poo poo
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Jan 29, 2016 04:45
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Canon is a completely arbitrary concept. Disney completely changed it once, and will do so again. It's not real. It's a distraction. Think back to Yoda. Canon is the distraction that stops you from feeling the Force of the many stories written for Star Wars. They're all equally real. poo poo, the fact that the term 'Canon' is used, coming from Religion, is a pretty big alarm.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:56
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm excited that my friend, Darth Maul, is alive less than 5 years before A New Hope Yeah this is really cool. Can't wait to see him in action in Rebels, and Cad Bane in action in Rogue One.
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Jan 29, 2016 04:58
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Bongo Bill posted:holy poo poo Brilliant, isn't it? Then literally everybody wins.
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Jan 29, 2016 05:03
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jivjov posted:Brilliant, isn't it? Then literally everybody wins. You misunderstand me. Why don't you do it?
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Jan 29, 2016 05:05
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jivjov posted:Little of both really (but I never presumed that my made up tales [and this includes the Star Wars tabletop campaign that I run currently] were canonical.) Unbelievably Badass post
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Jan 29, 2016 05:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:poo poo, the fact that the term 'Canon' is used, coming from Religion, is a pretty big alarm. gently caress you Pachebel, philosophers, The West.
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Jan 29, 2016 05:26
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RBA Starblade posted:gently caress you Pachebel, philosophers, The West. Sure.
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Jan 29, 2016 05:30
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jivjov posted:What's the point of having a continuity if authors can just pick and choose what is and isn't in it? That's absolutely ridiculous. The limited-series comic book All-Star Superman is a perfect example of this working to great effect. The series referenced and built on tons of past Superman stories both famous and obscure, but it was not beholden to any continuity or canon. So it could effectively tell a story about Superman's final feats, something the monthly comic will never do. It was enriched by past works instead of being held back by them.
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Jan 29, 2016 06:21
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MonsterEnvy posted:Yeah this is really cool. Can't wait to see him in action in Rebels, and Cad Bane in action in Rogue One. There was a comic where Vader fought Maul AFAIK. Let's see this poo poo happen on the small screen 
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