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How does this reincarnation thing work if he died in the past where there already is a Hawkdude running around? Does the FutureSoul just hang out for 40 years until it catches up with where he got in the time ship? Are there now two Hawkguys until 2016?
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Jan 30, 2016 17:40
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losonti tokash posted:How does this reincarnation thing work if he died in the past where there already is a Hawkdude running around? Does the FutureSoul just hang out for 40 years until it catches up with where he got in the time ship? Are there now two Hawkguys until 2016? 
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Jan 30, 2016 18:22
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Lunatic Sledge posted:Hawks ... no harm, no fowl. For the love of gods 
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Jan 30, 2016 18:24
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hiddenriverninja posted:I think he says something like "I always find you" and "it takes you longer to remember" No, he does specifically say that it varies who discovers who first, but then he also says "you always say that [you can't believe this costume is real]" when he's showing her the hawk getup. I think the latter is more of a figure of speech.
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Jan 30, 2016 19:25
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I find Vandal Savage quite threatening. He's a different category of villain for sure. No crazy superpowers, just immortality. But he's a master manipulator who incited the most devastating wars and massacres in history, which basically means he is responsible for more death and destruction than 99% of DC villains. I kind of like that he's outclassed, from a "power level" perspective, when confronted by the heroes. He just has some martial skills to defend himself with. But the challenge is that he's clever as hell and has so far managed to outsmart/outmanuever the group, which is fun. Frankly, it's refreshing to not have a villain where the whole deal is "omg he can run faster than me!" or "wow, he can catch my arrows in mid-flight!"
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Jan 30, 2016 20:08
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I accept this.
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Jan 30, 2016 21:04
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enraged_camel posted:But he's a master manipulator who incited the most devastating wars and massacres in history, which basically means he is responsible for more death and destruction than 99% of DC villains. Putting aside that Vandal Savage caught Ollie's arrows the first time he saw him I'm pretty sure the above isn't true. Even if it is true though, it's kind of worthless if we never actually see him manipulate nations in to a war that the heroes can't stop because then it's just background and not something the audience has any emotional investment in at that point. I also don't buy Savage as any kind of master manipulator since he's been killed once already by our heroes and would have been killed a second time if they had any brains between them. Being a manipulator doesn't mean much if your plans only come off because the people you're facing are absolute morons. It doesn't make the villain look dangerously smart, it makes the heroes look dangerously incompetent.
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Jan 30, 2016 21:06
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hiddenriverninja posted:I think he says something like "I always find you" and "it takes you longer to remember" Also I suppose this might be the first time neither of them are double-homicided at least to their knowledge, so I wonder how that will work out.
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Jan 30, 2016 21:26
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tsob posted:Putting aside that Vandal Savage caught Ollie's arrows the first time he saw him I'm pretty sure the above isn't true. Even if it is true though, it's kind of worthless if we never actually see him manipulate nations in to a war that the heroes can't stop because then it's just background and not something the audience has any emotional investment in at that point. I'm not sure what you mean about not having any emotional investment. I have plenty of emotional investment in the fact that Dick Cheney basically strongarmed the Bush administration to invade and occupy the Middle East, even though I wasn't in a position to stop it. quote:I also don't buy Savage as any kind of master manipulator since he's been killed once already by our heroes and would have been killed a second time if they had any brains between them. Being a manipulator doesn't mean much if your plans only come off because the people you're facing are absolute morons. It doesn't make the villain look dangerously smart, it makes the heroes look dangerously incompetent. He manipulates powerful world leaders, not time travelers with superpowers who already know who he is, what he has done in the past and what he will do in the future. You say "he's been killed once already by our heroes" but it is explained clearly that only one person can kill him. Yes, he was turned to dust during the crossovers, but that wasn't permanent by any means. He can only be killed by Kendra and only if she is wielding the dagger and uttering the incantation written on it. Also, the heroes are incompetent. They have serious trust issues, and they are extremely arrogant and careless. I don't think this makes any of them "morons". They are basically what you would expect from a team that would never have formed organically on its own, but has no choice to learn to work together to defeat an enemy.
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Jan 30, 2016 22:11
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They could show Vandal Savage ordering Hitler around and it still wouldn't make him a credible threat. The actor is just miscast entirely.
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Jan 30, 2016 22:20
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They can't all be Phil Morris
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Jan 30, 2016 23:49
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Savage's threat, aside from skills he's picked up over multiple lifetimes, is patience. You can stop him today but he'll be back tomorrow, or better yet he'll be somewhere else tomorrow and you won't know until it's too late. Bury him in an avalanche, drop him in a volcano, it's only a matter of time. That's kinda hard to convey in a 2-hour episode.
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Jan 31, 2016 02:32
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Also he learns every time you encounter him. They really did the dumbest thing they could possibly do, showing him all their capabilities in a nice wide shot like that.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:09
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Everyone stop calling Hawkman Hawyguy. Hawkman sucks, Hawkguy is awesome.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:22
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great now I'm imagine a version of legends of tomarrow where instead of hawkman, we get harvey birdman - attorney at law. :p.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:27
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This episode was definitely better than the first one, but it's still not great. Hawkman dying was great, but Savage is just not a good villain at all, but especially to such a powerful team of heroes. Just time travel alone should make it stupidly easy to beat him. Speaking of which Rip is also a lovely character. He barely exists and I certainly don't care about him at all. He should have died along with Hawkman and left them to take the time machine and go on without him. Also, in the big fight scene, Ray was doing way better when he was tiny, just taking out a bunch of people as he flew by, but then he went back to normal size and had to start fighting them one-on-one in a much less effective way. And the ray guns are dumb, but only because we've seen them work much better before and now they've been powered down for no in-character reason. Didn't hate Stein in this episode though, so that was an improvement.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:28
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shades of eternity posted:great Birdperson would be even better
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Jan 31, 2016 04:29
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I like the people trying to explain how dangerous or whatever the villain dude is, like  "No, but umm...Actually, you see let me tell you my headcanon about why he's so dangerous...  "It's approaching fanfiction, because nothing in the show or the crossovers have been anything but poo poo on his end. They try to make him 'EVIL" or whatever, but he kills his chief scientist because he's 'EVIL' and a 'MASTERMIND' like what a shitheap boring character. The old dude half of Firestorm makes an infinitely more interesting villain in his 4 seconds of bluffing the bouncer at the black market than whatever they have written for Vandal Savage.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:33
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List of people on the team who can't take Vandal on: Hawkman lol Kendra Prof Stein Actually prof Stein would probably take a huge bong rip then science up some poo poo. Savage is not a credible villain at all.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:49
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i like how you guys are totally evaluating Vandal based on his ability to take on the group lol the dude is literally immortal, and the only person who can possibly kill him doesn't even know how to fight properly
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Jan 31, 2016 04:52
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enraged_camel posted:i like how you guys are totally evaluating Vandal based on his ability to take on the group lol most of the team can incapacitate him(except for plot stupidity) and wait for Kendra to walk over to him and put a knife in his chest very dangerous villain
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Jan 31, 2016 05:11
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:most of the team can incapacitate him(except for plot stupidity) no, except for him being always prepared
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Jan 31, 2016 05:18
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His only abilities demonstrated thus far are "throws knives real fast" and "plot armor" A little show-don't-tell would go a long way as far as making the viewer give a solitary poo poo about him
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Jan 31, 2016 05:26
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raditts posted:His only abilities demonstrated thus far are "throws knives real fast" and "plot armor"
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Jan 31, 2016 06:36
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To be fair, it's kind of hard to actually demonstrate immortality. Watch as he NOT AGES.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:39
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As much as I've complained (and will continue to complain, quite a lot) about Vandal being a weaksauce villain, I cannot stress enough that I'm really enjoying this show and that they're using basically every [other] character in the best possible way. I like that Ray is essentially trying to come across as the Superman of the team, the Captain America, the Cyclops, the stalwart square-jawed manly heroic lead...but that he's continuously being undermined by all sorts of circumstances along with his own inexperience. I didn't dislike him when he was on Arrow, but I find that I like him a lot more now that he's not literally just a nameswapped Ted Kord.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:45
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muscles like this? posted:To be fair, it's kind of hard to actually demonstrate immortality. Watch as he NOT AGES. They've demonstrated his immortality. It's a passive thing, and they showed it through flashbacks/flashforwards. No biggie. What they haven't done is demonstrate why he's a good and interesting character. The entire extended Hawkfamily is pointless.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:48
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Its a shame, because a few little tweaks here and there would have helped establish Vandal as a villain. To me, it would have been better to give Vandal Damien's lines instead of/ just before the "I feel them near" stuff, and for him to have just calmly accepting Prof. Steins stalling and call him a clever man, before walking away and signalling to his henchmen. I would also have liked to see Vandal spot Ray's missing piece because it is new and different. Instead, the bit part of Damien Darkh came over as a more credible villain in just 3 sentences. Poor showing when you write a cameo to upstage your villain.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:14
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muscles like this? posted:To be fair, it's kind of hard to actually demonstrate immortality. Watch as he NOT AGES.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:16
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Jan 31, 2016 07:17
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But Vandal aside, I'm really enjoying the show. Canary being a dope smoking badass and openly acknowledging her bisexuality? Awesome!
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Jan 31, 2016 07:23
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now that hawkdude is kaput, maybe she will get it on with kendra 
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Jan 31, 2016 07:27
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Please add a separate entry in the OP for Professor Stein, codenamed "The Wildcard" 
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Jan 31, 2016 07:59
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Andrew_1985 posted:
If this is the reasoning for including a character then they should just make pied piper a regular, it would be much better than Hawkman.
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Jan 31, 2016 08:45
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Sober posted:Forever had a better immortal villain. And this is a show on ABC that got canceled after 22 episodes. Forever was amazing.
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Jan 31, 2016 08:48
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Drifter posted:I like the people trying to explain how dangerous or whatever the villain dude is, like To the old dudes credit he's a very good actor in whatever he plays. Watching him in Power on stars as a rich multi club owner who is super esentric and out to gently caress over the main character. Does a great job for being part of the side plot.
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Jan 31, 2016 11:50
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Sober posted:Forever had a better immortal villain. And this is a show on ABC that got canceled after 22 episodes. Hey, if Legends could've swung Burn Gorman as the villain...well, they didn't. But he's a real commodity. (I liked New Amsterdam more than Forever in every way except that one. Burn Gorman is the best.)
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Jan 31, 2016 12:45
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Drifter posted:I like the people trying to explain how dangerous or whatever the villain dude is, like This isn't fanfiction, it's the first line spoken in episode 1 part 2. and the team's biggest fault is that they're trying to use their comic book superpowers against Savage directly. What they should really do is knock out all his support first - destroy (or steal) his financial network, infiltrate and overrun or turn his 'army', etc. Binary Logic fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 15:35
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Binary Logic posted:"In 2166, an immortal tyrant named Vandal Savage conquered the world." Well thank god they took the time to tell me that because he certainly isn't written well enough to understand any of that based upon his displayed actions or behavior.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:14
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Binary Logic posted:"In 2166, an immortal tyrant named Vandal Savage conquered the world." But that's telling, not showing. For the audience, he's still just a murder hobo.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:23
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