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Ultramega posted:Lol at this whole page honestly. Even if I can't imagine hakimashou convincing anyone that genocide is cool as long as you're the biggest dog, or TIC convincing people that human rights are anti-Semitic, it's still important to challenge their arguments for the purpose of thread lurkers. A lot of their arguments could easily be compelling to an outsider who's not versed in the context of the situation. Just earlier today, it was suggested that reading Benny Morris would provide an unbiased view of the I/P conflict. Ideally posters would go away after unironically arguing for genocide, but we haven't that luxury.
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Jan 31, 2016 18:32
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hakimashou posted:I don't think anyone would permit it, least of all the Israelis or the USA, especially after 9/11. Just like our sympathy for zionists has been destroyed by the thousands of innocent Palestinians civilians blown to smithereens by the IDF and so therefore it's okay to kill Isralis and commit all kinds of war crimes against them based on your logic, right? Or are you saying that it only matters when white people die? Could you please clarify, I'm trying to make sure I know in exactly what way you're being both a massive hypocrite AND a war crimes apologist.
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Jan 31, 2016 22:11
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure. The problem is that nations only have the right to unilaterally establish buffer zones on their own territory, not someone else's. Gazan civilians are not subject to Israeli military or government authority, and therefore Israeli forces have no right (other than "we have enough military superiority to violate your rights at will and you can't stop us") to enforce a buffer zone over them. If the IDF wants to bulldoze Israeli homes and fields to create a buffer zone in Israeli territory, that would be just fine (assuming that they followed proper Israeli law and procedures, and survived the inevitable political backlash). However, "military necessity" hasn't been a valid justification for using your overwhelming military superiority to freely violate other nations' sovereignty since 1914. And yet, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and overthrew their governments based on 'military necessity,' and a broad coalition of other nations helped us do it. And this is just one of a great many examples of this since 1914. "International Laws" are just the will of the most powerful countries. There isn't some separately constituted law-making and law-enforcing institution separate from the most powerful countries and their interests and desires. Israel is and will remain in the good graces of the US and its allies because it is a natural ally. It cant be overstated how comprehensively the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Islamic Resistance movements were doomed by 9/11 and the subsequent actions of Islamists since then. Nobody wants to fight the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria just to see it established in Israel instead.
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Feb 1, 2016 00:15
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I've missed when exactly in Iraq and Afghanistan did the USA proceed to expel Iraqis and Afghans from their country and smuggle in hundreds of thousands of American "settlers" to occupy the land illegally. I'll point out also that in Iraq's case, this was done against the objection of other countries, including three of the P5, and it caused lasting damage to American soft power.
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Feb 1, 2016 00:28
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hakimashou posted:Israel is and will remain in the good graces of the US and its allies because it is a natural ally. "Natural Allies" are terrible allies to have, because they tend to take and take without giving. Israel gives the US nothing of use, while it takes a lot. I'm not saying the US shouldn't be friendly to Israel, but it should be extracting more of a toll for this, so, for example, when we want Chickenshit gone, he should be able to be removed.
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Feb 1, 2016 00:52
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Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia are also natural allies, by the way. Turkey controls the passage between Black Sea and Mediterranean and can therefore neuter one third the Russian fleet; Egypt controls the Suez canal; Saudi Arabia controls the world's biggest reserve of oil and is therefore critically important for the stability of the world order. The strategic relevance of Israel, on the other hand, is harder to ascertain. What do they bring, besides a simple way to get rid of surplus Hellfire missiles?
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Feb 1, 2016 01:02
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hakimashou posted:And yet, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and overthrew their governments based on 'military necessity,' and a broad coalition of other nations helped us do it. And this is just one of a great many examples of this since 1914. though based on false intelligence for the former, going to war with someone is not the same as committing war crimes against them. quote:"International Laws" are just the will of the most powerful countries. There isn't some separately constituted law-making and law-enforcing institution separate from the most powerful countries and their interests and desires. And because rich people are frequently able to get away with comitting crimes due to their disproportionate power, just as the most powerful countries are frequently able to, that's why we shouldn't bother trying to enforce any crime ever! Hmmm, wait, actually maybe we should hold off on that. That powerful countries are less likely to face restitution for war crimes is bad. However war crimes represent the very worst aspect of humanity, some of the worst atrocities imaginable. Just because we can't prosecute every war crime ever (just as we can't prosecute every normal crime ever) doesn't mean that we shouldn't prosecute every war crime we're able to. quote:Israel is and will remain in the good graces of the US and its allies because it is a natural ally. Israel isn't a natural ally except in the sense that there are a lot of evangelical Christians in the USA who want to support it to help bring about the end times or whatever. In strategic terms, Israel is a liability if anything and the US allies with it mostly due to internal political concerns as Israel is popular with the American public. quote:It cant be overstated how comprehensively the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Islamic Resistance movements were doomed by 9/11 and the subsequent actions of Islamists since then. Nobody wants to fight the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria just to see it established in Israel instead. Okay well as that's not the issue and doesn't relate at all, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Feb 1, 2016 01:22
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes, they do. They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.) Thanks for this latest outburst of your barely concealed
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Feb 1, 2016 02:42
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The Insect Court posted:Thanks for this latest outburst of your barely concealed "Hmmmm, someone literally advocating ethnic cleansing a race of people and someone mocking the person advocating ethnically cleansing an entire race of people. Obviously it is the latter person I need to accuse of racism" - TIC, January 31st 2016
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Feb 1, 2016 02:52
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team overhead smash posted:Israel isn't a natural ally except in the sense that there are a lot of evangelical Christians in the USA who want to support it to help bring about the end times or whatever. In strategic terms, Israel is a liability if anything and the US allies with it mostly due to internal political concerns as Israel is popular with the American public. Israel is also a large (although not at all sole) recipient of US military "assistance", about $2bn a year, which in turn comes back to feed the maw of our voracious military industrial complex. We also partner with the Israelis on intelligence and weapon development - although getting them in the F-35 doesn't seem like much of a favor.
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Feb 1, 2016 02:56
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The Insect Court posted:
I wasn't responding to the title sorry, but to this: "A people that suffered for 2,000 years, that went through the Holocaust, arrives at its patrimony but is thrust into a renewed round of bloodshed, that is perhaps the road to annihilation. In terms of cosmic justice, that's terrible. It's far more shocking than what happened in 1948 to a small part of the Arab nation that was then in Palestine...We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it's possible than [sic] when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late." Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 03:04
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Platonicsolid posted:Israel is also a large (although not at all sole) recipient of US military "assistance", about $2bn a year, which in turn comes back to feed the maw of our voracious military industrial complex. We also partner with the Israelis on intelligence and weapon development - although getting them in the F-35 doesn't seem like much of a favor. I believe the official figure is about $3 billion but because of the way Israel is treated it gets $1-$2 billion extra according to some old figures from several years ago from all the extra exceptions and unique benefits granted to Israel. This happens in numerous ways, of which I'll just list some. Firstly most countries receive their foreign aid in quarterly installments. Israel uniquely receives its aid in one upfront installant on January 1st, essentially allowing it to get money upfront and accrue additional interest on it at US taxpayer expense. Israel along with a couple of other countries is also able to apply its entire military funding to current year obligations. Usually some has to be set aside to cover expected costs in subsequent years. According to the US General Accounting Office this "permits a country to order more defence goods and services than it ordinarily could because less money must be reserved when a contract is signed" The USA also gives support in the form of loan guarantees that let Israel borrow from commercial lenders at significantly lower rates, thereby saving themselves large amounts of money. Although Israel doesn't tend to default and so the USA doesn't actually end up paying, it still has to cover its back and appropriate funds in budgets to cover an estimate of what could be lost if Israel did default on its loans. No solid figure is available but estimate are in the 100s of millions to 1 billion range for what this costs. In addition to the $3 billion of military/economic aid described, Israel has almost received billions ($3 billion as of the last date I can find in 2008) to develop weapons. These projects like the Lavi aircraft, Merkava tank and arrow missile were funded through the US department of defence and portrayed as joint research projects, but the USA didn't need these weapons and never planned to to buy or use these weapon systems. That isn't including excess defence articles where USA surplus is given to friendly countries free of charge or heavily discounted. Israel has received a good amount of this and again as previously been given special exemptions (on one-off rather than ongoing basis) to allow them to receive more than the usual $250 million annual limit. It also has a lot more ability to spend the money how it wants. In terms of military aid the Defence Security Cooperation Agency usually handles almost all purchasing for aid recipients but in Israels case they deal directly with military suppliers for almost all purchases and then get their aid account reimbursed - giving them much more latitude in how and why they spend money. Israel also has a special exemption from congress in that it is allowed to use one in every four dollars to subsidise its own defence industry rather than importing. Israel is also the only country where contracts of less than $500,000 are exempt from prior US review. Most astonishingly of all the economic aid is also uniquely given on a government to government basis with no account for how it is spent, allowing it to easily be put towards settlements, nuclear weapons and other enterprises that the USA officially disapproves of disapproves of. I mean I could go on, but basically the thing to take away is 1) Israel receives even more massively disproportionate aid than you might think at first glance and 2) Israel has a lot more leeway in how it spends that aid than other countries.
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Feb 1, 2016 03:13
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Well, that was informative and depressing. :-(
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Feb 1, 2016 03:22
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The Insect Court posted:Thanks for this latest outburst of your barely concealed So, justifying ethnic cleansing because "it's a practical necessity" or because "Israel won, Arabs lost, git gud or gtfo" is perfectly legitimate and sincere defense of Israel, but paraphrasing scripture is not? You are not very consistent. team overhead smash posted:I mean I could go on, but basically the thing to take away is 1) Israel receives even more massively disproportionate aid than you might think at first glance and 2) Israel has a lot more leeway in how it spends that aid than other countries. My favorite part is how Israel can get free ammo refills from the Pentagon. Ran out of missiles while bombing schools and hospitals? No problem, just send a few planes to grab some more from US bases, no question asked. I mean it's a water drop compared to the financial aid, but it's just such a perfect illustration of what aiding Israel really is about. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 10:49
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Cat Mattress posted:So, justifying ethnic cleansing because "it's a practical necessity" or because "Israel won, Arabs lost, git gud or gtfo" is perfectly legitimate and sincere defense of Israel, but paraphrasing scripture is not? You are not very consistent. Wow, the mask slips. I was expecting you to backpedal, not dive right in. You sure you want to wave around some out of context bits of scripture as proof for your "Jews are bloodthirsty killers" thesis? Cat Mattress posted:They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.)
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Feb 1, 2016 11:06
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Israeli are only bloodthirsty killers if you consider Palestinians to be human beings. But since Palestinians, like all Arabs, are subhuman vermin, then what Israel is doing is cool and good. I'm fully on your side!
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Feb 1, 2016 11:09
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Kajeesus posted:Even if I can't imagine hakimashou convincing anyone that genocide is cool as long as you're the biggest dog, or TIC convincing people that human rights are anti-Semitic, it's still important to challenge their arguments for the purpose of thread lurkers. A lot of their arguments could easily be compelling to an outsider who's not versed in the context of the situation. Just earlier today, it was suggested that reading Benny Morris would provide an unbiased view of the I/P conflict. Ideally posters would go away after unironically arguing for genocide, but we haven't that luxury. As one of those lurkers without any information besides what I see on the news (Israelis and Palestinians kill each other a lot), I appreciate it.
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Feb 1, 2016 11:21
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, the mask slips. I was expecting you to backpedal, not dive right in. You sure you want to wave around some out of context bits of scripture as proof for your "Jews are bloodthirsty killers" thesis? I think it's incredibly telling that all you do is look for reasons to call people who disagree with you antisemitic. It's god drat obvious what cat mattress is doing but you want to be able to dismiss actual arguments made in this thread so you focus on him.
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Feb 1, 2016 11:56
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The Jewish people really deserve better than Israel. Edit: it's the mean punchline to a terrible joke. Your people suffer for centuries and then you can see a large portion of them become everything you've fought against. It's loving tragic. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 14:48
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hakimashou posted:And yet, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and overthrew their governments based on 'military necessity,' and a broad coalition of other nations helped us do it. And this is just one of a great many examples of this since 1914. Huh? We went to war against those countries, and the justification had nothing at all to do with "military necessity". There really isn't any similarity at all. A much more accurate comparison would be if North Korea sent armored bulldozers across the DMZ to level border outposts on the South Korean side in order to "widen the buffer zone" for the sake of "military necessity" - which would be roundly condemned as an act of war and a violation of South Korea's sovereignty, and repelled by military force.
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Feb 1, 2016 15:31
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, the mask slips. I was expecting you to backpedal, not dive right in. You sure you want to wave around some out of context bits of scripture as proof for your "Jews are bloodthirsty killers" thesis? He's not presenting his own views, he's criticising the views of hakimashou who is literally supporting the ethnic cleansing and war crimes comitted by Jewish Israelis on Arab palestinians by rewording hakimashou's viewpoint to make it clear how awful the stuff hakimashou is saying is. Of course rather than do something to actually defend against racism and anti-semitism when hakimashou literally approves and supports ethnic cleansing of arabs, you instead jump on an imaginary issue that only exists in your head because you think someone said something mean about Jews. You've got messed up priorities which show how racist and hateful you are.
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Feb 1, 2016 16:27
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Jewish people really deserve better than Israel. That time when they sent those Ethiopian Jews to camps and started giving them birth control without telling them was possibly the most ironic situation in history.
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Feb 1, 2016 17:22
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, the mask slips. I was expecting you to backpedal, not dive right in. You sure you want to wave around some out of context bits of scripture as proof for your "Jews are bloodthirsty killers" thesis? What is it with your endless crusade to misapply the term anti-Semitism? Do you really care that little about the real suffering Jewish people actually experience due to it?
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Feb 1, 2016 17:58
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team overhead smash posted:He's not presenting his own views, he's criticising the views of hakimashou who is literally supporting the ethnic cleansing and war crimes comitted by Jewish Israelis on Arab palestinians by rewording hakimashou's viewpoint to make it clear how awful the stuff hakimashou is saying is. It's a pure ad hom. "No one listen to him, he's ANTI-SEMITIC." It's a distraction because he can't just outright admit that he doesn't regard Palestinians as human beings.
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Feb 1, 2016 18:03
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A piece on +972 on Im Tirzu and the ultimate goal of their current camapign: http://972mag.com/how-im-tirzu-dominates-israels-public-debate/116498/drilldo squirt posted:That time when they sent those Ethiopian Jews to camps and started giving them birth control without telling them was possibly the most ironic situation in history. Hey, I mean, you said 'birth control' instead of using a variation of 'sterilization' but then you said 'camps' so... good effort all in all.
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Feb 1, 2016 18:47
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emanresu tnuocca posted:A piece on +972 on Im Tirzu and the ultimate goal of their current camapign: http://972mag.com/how-im-tirzu-dominates-israels-public-debate/116498/ I don't know what your getting at, but they did do that and it's never not going to be funny. Edit: personally saying sterilization is funnier but this is a serious forum for debating things. drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 19:12
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Oh yes, Israel facilitating the immigration of a hundred thousand ethiopian jews into the country and then housing them temporarily in trailer parks before it could find them permanent residence is the most hilarious and racist thing ever. It will never be not funny because a minority of them were administered temporary contraceptives. You can practically cut through the irony with a butter knife, it was auschwitz all over again but no one says anything about it because Jews.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Oh yes, Israel facilitating the immigration of a hundred thousand ethiopian jews into the country and then housing them temporarily in trailer parks before it could find them permanent residence is the most hilarious and racist thing ever. It will never be not funny because a minority of them were administered temporary contraceptives. You can practically cut through the irony with a butter knife, it was auschwitz all over again but no one says anything about it because Jews. When we discussed this before I think we'd already agreed that apartheid and Australia's treatment of Aborigines are more apt comparisons free of hyperbole.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:32
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team overhead smash posted:He's not presenting his own views, he's criticising the views of hakimashou who is literally supporting the ethnic cleansing and war crimes comitted by Jewish Israelis on Arab palestinians by rewording hakimashou's viewpoint to make it clear how awful the stuff hakimashou is saying is. Ah, I see. It's funny, ironic anti-semitism. He's parodying hakimashou. By making a completely different sort of argument(the classically antisemitic one) instead of hakimashou's(the sociopathic "realist" one). What reactionary extremist Likudnik scum is he parodying in the post below, where he repeats the "Jews are bloodthirsty fanatics commanded by their god to slaughter non-Jews" 'joke'? Let's take a look.... Cat Mattress posted:1. They are Amalek Oh. It's in response to this one: team overhead smash posted:It can't simply kill Palestinians on a massive scale for absolutely no reason, it needs some kind of rationale even if it's not a good one. The reason C.M. keeps saying this stuff is because he believes it.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:40
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A lot of people getting close to violating thread rule #2 here.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:50
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So I heard that a member of PA security attacked Israeli soldiers. Is there any chance this could become more common?
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Feb 1, 2016 19:53
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The Insect Court posted:The reason C.M. keeps saying this stuff is because he believes it. We all agree that the systematic and perpetual oppression of Palestinians is a good thing, that the status quo is perfect, and that Israel is beyond criticism, and that any attempt at contradicting any of the previous assertions is antisemitic. But the question, of course, is to find why exactly crimes against Palestinians are Cool and Good. There can be three explanations here, and I'm eager to ear which one you subscribe to: 1. Crimes against mankind are always cool and good; human rights are a fairy tale. 2. Crimes against mankind are bad, but Palestinians aren't human so in their case it's okay. 3. Crimes against mankind are bad, except when it's Israel that is committing them. So which one is the good? Teach me, master. So far I'm leaning towards #3 because there's support for it in scripture, but maybe it's actually #2?
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Feb 1, 2016 21:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Oh yes, Israel facilitating the immigration of a hundred thousand ethiopian jews into the country and then housing them temporarily in trailer parks before it could find them permanent residence is the most hilarious and racist thing ever. It will never be not funny because a minority of them were administered temporary contraceptives. You can practically cut through the irony with a butter knife, it was auschwitz all over again but no one says anything about it because Jews. They didn't tell them it was contraceptives and they did it intentionally to only this one group of Jews who, if I remember right, had trouble being recognized as Jews in the first place. What they did is indefensible.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:07
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The Insect Court posted:Ah, I see. It's funny, ironic anti-semitism. He's parodying hakimashou. By making a completely different sort of argument(the classically antisemitic one) instead of hakimashou's(the sociopathic "realist" one). I don't care who you think is antisemitic and probably no one else does either. But let's talk about what you think of hakimashou's position. Do you agree with it?
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Feb 1, 2016 21:10
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drilldo squirt posted:They didn't tell them it was contraceptives and they did it intentionally to only this one group of Jews who, if I remember right, had trouble being recognized as Jews in the first place. What they did is indefensible. You keep saying "they", "they", "they", but who do you mean by that? Because "they" certainly wasn't the Israeli government (this is why details and specifics are important).
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Feb 1, 2016 21:17
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Main Paineframe posted:You keep saying "they", "they", "they", but who do you mean by that? Because "they" certainly wasn't the Israeli government (this is why details and specifics are important). I did mean the Israeli government. I could be wrong though, it could be a part of the Israeli government.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:20
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It seems we need another rule to keep this thread on track!quote:5. Please keep any discussion about the immigration of Jewish Ethiopians and their treatment by Israeli society and the Israeli government phrased solely via musical instrument metaphors.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:21
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I could be wrong but Forbes says I wasn't. http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/#6e2f32bb2880
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Feb 1, 2016 21:22
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So Israel sneakily popped mutes in the Ethiopians' trumpets?
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Feb 1, 2016 21:58
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Dabir posted:So Israel sneakily popped mutes in the Ethiopians' trumpets? Please. It was only the second-chair clarinets that put mutes in some of the Ethiopian trumpets, and then took them out again.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:59
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