Why Should We Care About Property Rights?

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

I'd also like to have this particular question answered since it has been pretty much ignored even though I have brought it up multiple times before.

Or do you get to be exempted from such things because you're the libertarian ubermensch, bringing the light of ~~God~~ LIBERTY to us benighted statists?

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:38

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# ? May 15, 2024 11:27

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

jrodefeld posted:

I'd also like to have this particular question answered since it has been pretty much ignored even though I have brought it up multiple times before.

gently caress you cocksucker you don't fuckin get to say that

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:42

Karia: Mar 27, 2013; Self-portrait, Snake on a Plane
Oil painting, c. 1482-1484
Leonardo DaVinci (1452-1591)

Literally The Worst posted:

fight me jrod, fight me. my body is willing, my arms are spread wide, embrace me with your tender caress and let us wrestle together, naked, oiled up

You fool! Are you forgetting how attractive Jrod is? Only the fairest of us can truly battle him fairly. We must recruit a champion!

Now announcing: Something Awful 2016 Fashion Show! Winner gets the greatest prize of all: the chance to go one-on-one with Jrodefeld, and maybe, just maybe, scratch his face enough to become the true victor.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:44

CovfefeCatCafe: Apr 11, 2006; A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

jrodefeld posted:

Now a shorter post.

Given that we have been discussing healthcare reform, I have a simple question I�d like to pose:

In the interest of productive reform of an obviously broken US healthcare system, would you support changing the mandate of the FDA from either permitting or banning certain treatments, drugs and procedures onto the market to merely recommending or not recommending said medical products but not having the power to prevent their free sale to those who desire them?

Have you ever seen a commercial for a prescription medication? You know, the one that's like 3 minutes long and it spends like 2 of those minutes running through all the possible side effects, half of which could kill you if you have certain medical conditions? You can thank the FDA for that.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:49

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

jrodefeld posted:

Back to the topic. I'll take the time to peruse the last several pages for important posts that I should respond to,

No you loving won't. Why even pretend like you give a poo poo about having a conversation at this point any more? Just drop your loving sermon-turds and go back to hocking your stolen movies to idiots.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:53

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

jrodefeld posted:

Given that we have been discussing healthcare reform, I have a simple question I�d like to pose:

No.

jrodefeld posted:

10. Murray Rothbard

12. Ludwig von Mises

16. Lysander Spooner

17. Ron Paul

21. Hans Hoppe

You identify with fascists, supporters of slavery and Apartheid. You are a collaborator at best, a closeted fascist at worst. You are abhorrent.

burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:53

StandardVC10: Feb 6, 2007; This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant

The fact that old Triple H is down at number 21 is just about the only evidence I've seen so far that jrod is actually reading anyone's posts, honestly. A year or two ago he'd be way higher.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:57

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

Also, stop loving trying to appeal to us as being a "true leftist". We aren't going to suddenly accept you for being on "our team". We don't reject you for that, we reject you because you personally are an awful human being incapable of empathy or critical thought.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 05:58

Orange Fluffy Sheep: Jul 26, 2008; Bad EXP received

jrodefeld posted:

I'd also like to have this particular question answered since it has been pretty much ignored even though I have brought it up multiple times before.

Holy poo poo you are as dense as osmium.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:05

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Karia posted:

You fool! Are you forgetting how attractive Jrod is? Only the fairest of us can truly battle him fairly. We must recruit a champion!

Now announcing: Something Awful 2016 Fashion Show! Winner gets the greatest prize of all: the chance to go one-on-one with Jrodefeld, and maybe, just maybe, scratch his face enough to become the true victor.

im pretty as all hell son

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:07

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Who What Now posted:

Also, stop loving trying to appeal to us as being a "true leftist". We aren't going to suddenly accept you for being on "our team". We don't reject you for that, we reject you because you personally are an awful human being incapable of empathy or critical thought.

Hey man a true leftists that cares about :siren:

TRUE NATURAL FREEDOM :siren:

would support policy that would lead directly to right wing fascism because *colossal, window shattering fart that can be heart for miles*

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:08

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Literally The Worst posted:

im pretty as all hell son

it'll be the best episode of Hot Tub Brawls ever.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:10

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Not only should we expand the FDA's funding, but we should empower its agents to execute food and drug company executives at their own discretion for any reason or no reason at all

like Judge Dredd

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:12

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

It'll be super badass.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:13

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

Karia posted:

You fool! Are you forgetting how attractive Jrod is? Only the fairest of us can truly battle him fairly. We must recruit a champion!

Now announcing: Something Awful 2016 Fashion Show! Winner gets the greatest prize of all: the chance to go one-on-one with Jrodefeld, and maybe, just maybe, scratch his face enough to become the true victor.

Fashion fighting you say? It's just like one of my Japanese animes...

JoRo's Bizarre Ideology

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:13

theshim: May 1, 2012; You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!

jrodefeld posted:

Now a shorter post.

Given that we have been discussing healthcare reform, I have a simple question I�d like to pose:

In the interest of productive reform of an obviously broken US healthcare system, would you support changing the mandate of the FDA from either permitting or banning certain treatments, drugs and procedures onto the market to merely recommending or not recommending said medical products but not having the power to prevent their free sale to those who desire them?

t h a l i d o m i d e

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:13

StandardVC10: Feb 6, 2007; This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant

paragon1 posted:

Not only should we expand the FDA's funding, but we should empower its agents to execute food and drug company executives at their own discretion for any reason or no reason at all

like Judge Dredd

If this were real that Martin Shkreli guy would be so dead.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:14

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

theshim posted:

t h a l i d o m i d e

Well you see, your actual factual example is meaningless, because think of the massive potential upside if we did not have this process.

Hey Jrode, what do you think of praexology? Do you enjoy the warm, safe embrace of an ideology that has declared itself immune to disproof?

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:16

Karia: Mar 27, 2013; Self-portrait, Snake on a Plane
Oil painting, c. 1482-1484
Leonardo DaVinci (1452-1591)

Literally The Worst posted:

im pretty as all hell son

Excuse me, you haven't compared yourself to a celebrity so we can judge for ourselves. We have a right to select the one who will represent us in honorable single combat.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:22

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

You know what else is a violation of the categorical imperative? Surgery.

If I hack people up in alleyways or bring them back to my garage to carve to pieces that's :airquote:

assault with a deadly weapon :airquote:

and

attempted murder :airquote:

or maybe

murder in the first degree :airquote:

But someone with some fancy expensive paper from some high-falutin college like "Harvard Medical School" sticks knives in people and everyone falls all over themselves loving him. Why are some people given super-special powers to do things that are a crime when the salt of the earth man on the street does the same?

E: Hm this might not be an effective argument on someone who thinks universal health care means letting anyone sell antifreeze-based cough syrup or open Billie-Rae's Discount Kardio Cuttery out back in the woodshed.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:24

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

jrodefeld posted:

Now a shorter post.

Given that we have been discussing healthcare reform, I have a simple question I�d like to pose:

In the interest of productive reform of an obviously broken US healthcare system, would you support changing the mandate of the FDA from either permitting or banning certain treatments, drugs and procedures onto the market to merely recommending or not recommending said medical products but not having the power to prevent their free sale to those who desire them?

Changing the FDA to a recommendation agency would basically have taken the thalidomide disaster and amplified it by an order of magnitude. No thank you. The wicked already enrich themselves at the expense of the gullible and the desperate, and your proposal is designed to let them do that even better. Literally everything about your idea is bad from any perspective except from that of a drug manufacturer's.

If anything, I think that the FDA should be expanded to cover dietary supplements as well.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:25

Buried alive: Jun 8, 2009

jrodefeld posted:

...

Are you familiar with Emmanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative? As an essential part of his formulation of just ethics is the principle that moral action must be an action that can be willed to be universal law. Universalizability thus became an essential component of any just ethical rule and, by extension, any just law.

...

Kant, eh?

I'm familiar with Kant. I had to read a bit to remind myself of some things, and discovered some new things which I may or may not pursue. I have a question for you before I get any further in this and start digging into details. It's important. Like, really, really important. Do you actually subscribe to Kant's view of morality?

Also Kant disagrees with some of what you've said, but if you're just doing this Kant thing as a new approach and you're not solidly on board, I'm not sure I feel like really refuting it.

Buried alive fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:28

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

How does a DRO collect compensation from offenders for its clients if (unlike Lincoln's tyrannical US Government) DRO's are honor-bound to respect the Categorical Imperative and never take property without the owner's consent?

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:31

BaurusJA: Nov 13, 2015; It's cruel...it's playful... I like it

Jrod.... holy poo poo did you just take intro to PHI level Kant and apply it randomly to your situation... also what about my previous post showing you are *clearly* not an anarchist. Go read it please tia

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:33

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

VitalSigns posted:

How does a DRO collect compensation from offenders for its clients if (unlike Lincoln's tyrannical US Government) DRO's are honor-bound to respect the Categorical Imperative and never take property without the owner's consent?

You give your consent implicitly when a lawfully (whose law? who cares!) empowered agent of that DRO rips your brain out of your skull. It's the rules.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:35

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

kant definitely wouldn't have sat on our side of the National Assembly so i don't see what he has to do with any of this

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:36

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

BaurusJA posted:

Jrod.... holy poo poo did you just take intro to PHI level Kant and apply it randomly to your situation... also what about my previous post showing you are *clearly* not an anarchist. Go read it please tia

What about jrod's posting makes you think he's read past the intro to anything.

He didn't even know that Von Mises' Human Action was explicitly a utilitarian argument for the free market (and that Mises emphatically rejected all deontological ethics as arbitrary and worthless) until I told him, and he ~~claims~~formerly claimed it's the basis for his entire ideology.

Oddly, I don't think he's brought up Human Action a single time since I quoted those passages at him a year ago, hunh.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:36

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

VitalSigns posted:

How does a DRO collect compensation from offenders for its clients if (unlike Lincoln's tyrannical US Government) DRO's are honor-bound to respect the Categorical Imperative and never take property without the owner's consent?

Assuming they wanted to keep up the pretense of the non-aggression principle as opposed to merely becoming warlords and kings, which is what would actually happen, I'm imagining that they would publically withdraw their protection and MYSTERIOUSLY some bandits would show up and start looting and raiding and pillaging. The bandits would always be the same bandits, and the DRO officers would stand by to negotiate unfavorable terms for protection with the foolish reprobate.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:37

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

jrodefeld posted:

Back to the topic. I'll take the time to peruse the last several pages for important posts that I should respond to, but first I'd like to get a few things off my chest as to better explain my ideological identity.

No, gently caress you, answer my last post:

GunnerJ posted:

you posted:
It is an interesting thought though to think of how much farther ahead American blacks would be had their ancestors been immediately granted a just proportion of money and land in reparations for slavery and built up this wealth over the generations.

Why didn't this happen? Well, I think the Civil War muddied the waters. The amount of property destruction, to say nothing of the human cost of the war, made reconstruction efforts about repairing and re-integrating the Union rather than about restitution for freed blacks. The Union, whether it stay intact or break up, is not that loving important. The real moral issue involved the subjugated black slaves and their exploitative white "owners". Black slaves want to disassociate with their masters and are prevented by violence and threats of violence. Their labor was stolen and justice demands that they be compensated for that theft.

Sadly, the slavery issue became an afterthought as "saving the Union" became the nationalistic battle cry. The only good outcome of this conflict of course was the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment, but given the level of sincerity Lincoln and the Republicans showed towards the slavery issue, it should hardly be surprising that they didn't push further for just compensation given to the newly freed Africans as Justice would demand.

This is all very vague and doesn't really address the point. It is true enough that repairing the Union became an overriding concern for which many just goals were sacrificed. For example, late in Reconstruction, the will to uphold the political rights of black southerners melted away, leading to the withdrawal of federal military protection and the institution of Jim Crow. But what you really need to consider is that prior to this, black political rights were something the federal government and its Union-loyal citizens were willing to support and protect. This did not just amount to passing some Constitutional amendments and calling it a day. The political rights extended by those amendments had to be protected by force of arms and while they were, black southerners voted, ran for office, and held positions in government. After that protection was withdrawn, the forces of white supremacist terrorism and reaction undid all these gains.

Please note: in the face of white southern opposition, even violent opposition, the federal government was willing to force the governments of the southern states to accept black political participation. There was the will to fight for this for a time. Why was there not the will to fight for economic reparations for freed people? It's not like nobody talked about it. It's not like it was never tried. Why was that measure a bridge too far?

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:39

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

You know, thinking about it, Kant's support for enlightened absolute monarchy fits right into jrod's worldview.

eta: But on the other hand, Triple-H probably does not support the "Criticize, but obey" principle of civil rights and free expression.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:42

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hey hey, rodefeld j, how many questions did you ignore today

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:47

BaurusJA: Nov 13, 2015; It's cruel...it's playful... I like it

GunnerJ posted:

No, gently caress you, answer my last post

While he's at it he can answer mine too.

Me posted:

...You are not a leftist Jrod. Don't be roping leftist anarchists into this poo poo. the [anarchist] tradition, though vague and evolving as a definition, very clearly delineates its worldview from libertarianism.

Though the goals of reducing hierarchy, identity politics, and focusing on local material conditions are primary points of concern, their/our view is still a communal world view: People care and look out for each other and work to improve their community for the sake of each and the sake of all.

The anarchist left also does not instantly do away with anything federal. If a federal policy enabled local doctors to more ably attend to their patients by removing the cost barrie, giving patients many options in [their] local and surrounding communities, and offering equal access to health services to people, well, I'd think anarchists would be down right pleased with such an arrangement.

The thing about anarchism is that there might be general ideological beliefs about how society should interact or what the end goal looks like, but theory itself evolves as it is practiced. Whether its Bookchin, Kropotkin or Chomsky theory and practice are one thing in this tradition and near all of it comes out of, spiritually (if you will), anarcho-communism though splits from it.
There is nothing like your scarcity and property rights dogmatism here. The end point optics might look like your Libertopia, but its not. Anarchists, at least good ones, realize their ideal of municipalism may never fully come to fruition and that's OK, working towards it is enough.

Go away.

BaurusJA fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Feb 2, 2016 06:49

Ratoslov: Feb 15, 2012; Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

jrodefeld posted:

In the interest of productive reform of an obviously broken US healthcare system, would you support changing the mandate of the FDA from either permitting or banning certain treatments, drugs and procedures onto the market to merely recommending or not recommending said medical products but not having the power to prevent their free sale to those who desire them?

Seriously? jrod, you can do better than this.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 07:28

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

In the interest of productive reform of a broken system, here is a proposal that neither produces nor fixes anything:

# ? Feb 2, 2016 07:30

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

It's so very telling that of all the issues with the US healthcare system, he's mainly concerned with giving pharmaceutical companies the right to profit from selling fake medicine as easily as supplement companies can

quote:

New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman sent cease-and-desist letters, dated Monday, to the four retailers demanding they pull the supplements from their shelves and provide additional information about the products tested. Nearly 80 percent of the state�s test results found that the store-brand supplements tested did not contain what is listed on the label, according to a press release from Schneiderman's office.

�In a good number of cases, there was no organic material in the product,� said Marty Mack, Executive Deputy Attorney General for New York. �In some cases, it was sand.�

According to the findings, the store brands of Gingko Biloba and St. John�s Wort at all four stores did not test positive for either herb. Walmart, Walgreens and GNC�s versions of Ginseng and Echinacea also failed their ingredient tests.

You see liberals, that cancer medicine will cost so much less if it's just relabeled sugar water and sand-pills :smaug:

# ? Feb 2, 2016 07:42

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

Jrod, the better question is why would should we surrender to you? I'm not afraid of you Jrod. You can't force me to accept Libertarianism, and Statism rules supreme. We have no need to meet you in the middle on anything. It is you who has to sacrifice what you want to work with us. We don't need your approval to have the FDA do its job, it works pretty well as is, and the only area for improvement involves giving the FDA more funds and more authority.

If you want to find common ground, you need to moderate your views so that they are closer to what we want. We are getting along just fine without you, and if anything the future of America looks like more big government and big welfare.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 07:43

Zanzibar Ham: Mar 17, 2009; You giving me the cold shoulder? How cruel.; Grimey Drawer

Jrod, if you lived in an ideal libertarian utopia, how would you build your vast fortune/harem? What great idea of yours are you unable to bring to life because of the state and why? I'm assuming you've got something better in mind than bootleg movies from Hong Kong.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 07:44

jrodefeld: Sep 22, 2012; by Shine

1000101 posted:

No.

Leaves the door open for people to get conned into buying snake oil (see the guy in this thread who got conned by his dentist into replacing their fillings.) Consumers sometimes need to be protected from themselves.

edit: maybe it was the other thread.

Okay, so you support the entire War on Drugs, right? Consumers need to be protected from themselves, don't they? Frankly, and I don't say this lightly, you are a barbarian and a savage. What you are suggesting is that if two or more individuals come to a mutually agreeable transaction on the market that you disapprove of, you think it is justified to kidnap one or more of them and throw them in a cage. You must support prohibition of alcohol also, right? All kinds of people develop alcoholism and drink way too much. Don't we need to protect people from themselves?

It is a gross fallacy to think that in the complex world of medicine and health care that any group of individuals, even if motivated by pure intentions, is capable of accurately determining which drug or treatment is efficacious and which is not is absurd on the face of it. Such an institution would doubtless be subject to external pressure by established interests whose profits would be threatened by newcomers into the market. Corruption would abound.

What a civilized person would do, if they were truly concerned, would be to advise people of which products and services were worthwhile and which were not but never to forcefully prevent a voluntary transaction from taking place. The very fact that you cannot understand how barbaric such coercive aggressive acts are displays volumes about your character.

# ? Feb 2, 2016 08:34

Wanamingo: Feb 22, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Goooo gently caress yourself jrod

# ? Feb 2, 2016 08:38

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# ? May 15, 2024 11:27

BaurusJA: Nov 13, 2015; It's cruel...it's playful... I like it

Corruption abounds already in anarcho-capitalism.. so Jrod since you are ignoring my answers now as well.
Lemm just ask, how is Libertopia not literally just Mogadishu in the late 99s early 00s?

# ? Feb 2, 2016 08:39

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