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The actor was obviously told to flinch. And he does, exactly as it says in the script. Now we're back to "how am I supposed to understand that abuse is bad if he's not exaggeratedly menaced?" - mixed with the familiar 'CGI' boogeyman.
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Feb 2, 2016 07:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The actor was obviously told to flinch. And he does, exactly as it says in the script. Very debatable. He looks at Watto before Watto even does his hand thing and makes no other motions after wards indicating flinching. Pretty poo poo flinch if I ever saw one. Especially one meant to give us some efficient characterization of a primary relationship between our very important main character and an important secondary one. Maybe Lucas told Jake to flinch but Jake couldnt hear him because Lucas was far away in his chair.
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Feb 2, 2016 08:01
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You should definitely go frame-by-frame like it's the Zapruder film in order to argue that the eight-year-old child character enjoys being smacked in the face with a closed fist.
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Feb 2, 2016 08:19
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Nah. We are just really lucky we had the script here to tell us something the movie failed to sell.
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Feb 2, 2016 08:47
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I stumbled across that part while looking up quotes, and it stood out to me because Lucas had planned out the flinching part long advance. I'd assumed it was an improv thing. It is not necessary to read the script to understand that a slavemaster threatening to punch a child slave, for not working fast enough, is bad.
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Feb 2, 2016 09:02
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Maxwell Lord posted:No, it's just, why shouldn't I care? I'm shown a beautiful pastoral world invaded by skeletal robots, I'm shown the bad guys blowing up spaceships full of innocent people and trying to kill negotiators, and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn are trying to stop this so why shouldn't I be on their side? Sure, you could have ratcheted it up with some shots of starving children or whatever, but again the Invasion of Naboo, while it's the catalyst, isn't all that's going on in this story. It's what starts the ball rolling, and in that sense it works to have it be a very straightforward, downright optimistic story- because what's REALLY happening is anything but. Hey dudes the fact that the tone is a bizarre mess that is contradictory to what is going on and the primary plot isn't actually important is actually a STRENGTH of these films. Also, I'm afraid you're mistaken. There are no Good Guys in this film. Allow me to explain in detail my asinine headcanon: Tezzor fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 10:44
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Jerkface posted:Here is the gif of Anakin being menaced by Watto Haha, I was just going off the script too since it's been forever since I watched this scene. Incredible. Watch as they turn on a dime from "look at Anakin flinch, VISUAL STORYTELLING, his situation is just horrible" to "I'm sorry you are such a bad person you have to be SHOWN that slavery is bad"
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Feb 2, 2016 10:48
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Tezzor, I actually love what you're posting, mainly because you're answering the SMG crowd back with the same kind of insanity that they've displayed. A few questions: If a droid is programmed to enjoy serving people to the point that it's painful if they don't serve people, is it morally wrong to let them serve people? You can choose to live as a slave but be more affluent than the median person. Your master has technical ownership over you, which they could enforce via physically restraining you, but you have an excellent relationship with them and this is unlikely to ever happen as you enjoy your work. Is it abhorrent to be a slave in this situation? The two questions simply ask the question of whether slavery is inherently bad or not. I argue a consequentialist approach in that I do not buy that slavery is inherently bad if it provides a better solution than the next best option. The question isn't whether slavery is the best option for Anakin, so much as to show why I just don't think something is "Inherently" anything. That's why I need to be shown what's wrong with the system on Tatooine to a much more significant extent that is displayed in the movies. Anakin's life is frankly a lot better than the lives of people I've known and even more so than about 2 billion people in the world. I am confused then, given that as to why I should care about him being a slave given they seem to be treated pretty well on Tatooine. If Lucas is trying to show the inherent horror of slavery as people claim, then more work needs to be done to emphasise why not just that it's bad, but that it's morally abhorrent in every possible way and an affront to people's humanity. When Anakin is shown to be better off than people the audience are likely to know, Lucas fails. With the droids, we have no suppositions about what kind of programming they have, beyond they have personalities. I've know my friend's horse to have a personality. Again, C-3P0 and R2 seem to be pretty happy with what they're doing. If their slavery was abhorrent presumably they'd rebel? Given the number of droids and the apparent lack of droid rebellion at any point, it seems like either the droids enjoy their slavery or simply can't even comprehend that they are slaves because they're programmed not to. I don't think a being that is not ever capable of knowing it's a slave can be a slave, in the same way that I don't think a horse that pulls a cart is comparable to a slave. Lucas does not do enough work at any point to sell the abhorrence of slavery. In our world it was a horrible thing that degraded millions of people, but we're not in our world, we're in a world where slaves appear to live lives where they're happy, safe and appear to live to middle age in good health. Hell, I find that much less appalling than the situation we see Rey in.
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Feb 2, 2016 13:15
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Tezzor posted:Watch as they turn on a dime from "look at Anakin flinch, VISUAL STORYTELLING, his situation is just horrible" to "I'm sorry you are such a bad person you have to be SHOWN that slavery is bad" I don't think those are contradictory positions.
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Feb 2, 2016 13:24
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Yorkshire Tea posted:I argue a consequentialist approach in that I do not buy that slavery is inherently bad if it provides a better solution than the next best option. Oh my god. quote:That's why I need to be shown what's wrong with the system on Tatooine Oh my god. quote:If Lucas is trying to show the inherent horror of slavery as people claim, then more work needs to be done to emphasise why not just that it's bad, but that it's morally abhorrent in every possible way and an affront to people's humanity. Oh my god.
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Feb 2, 2016 13:47
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Again, C-3P0 and R2 seem to be pretty happy with what they're doing. If their slavery was abhorrent presumably they'd rebel? Given the number of droids and the apparent lack of droid rebellion at any point, it seems like either the droids enjoy their slavery or simply can't even comprehend that they are slaves because they're programmed not to. In A New Hope, R2 runs away from the Lars moisture farm to continue his mission for the Rebels. C-3PO hides when Luke comes looking for him and is only forced into revealing himself when Luke uses some sort of device that apparently causes him pain. In Return of the Jedi we see droids being tortured and dismembered in Jabba's palace. "We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life." - C-3PO
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Feb 2, 2016 13:53
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Schwarzwald posted:I don't think those are contradictory positions. It is when SMG has to start quoting the script because the visuals failed. quote:Oh my god. What has Star Wars done? quote:"We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life." - C-3PO It's funny because C-3PO literally was. He was built then enslaved by someone who wants to free slaves.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:02
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Lt. Danger posted:Oh my god. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5-t8WSQafM
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Feb 2, 2016 14:15
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Lt. Danger posted:Oh my god. Oh my god.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:16
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Lt. Danger posted:Oh my god. The satire of the PT really hits home.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:17
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RBA Starblade posted:It is when SMG has to start quoting the script because the visuals failed. Uhhhh dude denied that something that clearly happened visually happened, so SMG backed it up, like, conclusively. Then the guy kept denying it bcuz this thread is definitive proof that it's impossible to change people's minds
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Feb 2, 2016 14:21
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Hat Thoughts posted:Uhhhh dude denied that something that clearly happened visually happened, so SMG backed it up, like, conclusively. Then the guy kept denying it bcuz this thread is definitive proof that it's impossible to change people's minds Nobody flinches like that.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:30
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Like it's hilarious that people willing to loving run Marxist analysis of Star Wars seem unable to understand how thought experiments work. "Slavery is wrong and bad." "I can create a thought experiment where the consequences of being a slave are logically better than any alternative. Justify why slavery is wrong and bad given consequences where absent being a slave you are worse off." Spoilers, you can win this thought experiment from a deontological justification of why slavery is inherently bad. You can even argue about why the experiment I've made is inherently broken. The prequels do not and they need to if their grand claim is that robots programmed to fight and humans programmed to fight fighting each other is morally heinous.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:34
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Good grief.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:46
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Tezzor, I actually love what you're posting, mainly because you're answering the SMG crowd back with the same kind of insanity that they've displayed. This is the point where your post is shown to be trolling.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:48
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edit: eh not worth it to respond to blatant trolling
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Feb 2, 2016 14:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:This is the point where your post is shown to be trolling. Tezzor Is Right except about slavery
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Feb 2, 2016 14:52
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RBA Starblade posted:Nobody flinches like that. My reaction to this is um, hurrrrr gurrrrrr blaaaaaaa
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Feb 2, 2016 14:54
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I don't think you are as insightful as you think you are. You can construct scenarios in which slavery is a better option, yes. This isn't difficult. However, it's also not relevant.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:55
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Imagine I am Goku, don't seem so wrong now do I?
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Feb 2, 2016 14:57
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Hat Thoughts posted:My reaction to this is um, hurrrrr gurrrrrr blaaaaaaa As someone who was a pretty twitchy kid, my first instinct when something causes me to flinch is to flail my left arm and nothing else, not even slow down. I was only skimming the thread and came across that gif and didn't know it was what everyone was talking about until SMG pulled out the script. quote:Imagine I am Goku, don't seem so wrong now do I? Goku why didn't you stop slavery on Tattooine? 
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Feb 2, 2016 14:58
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This thread is such a mess.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:01
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Hat Thoughts posted:Imagine I am Goku, don't seem so wrong now do I? Yes sir, Mr. Goku! Whatever you say!
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Feb 2, 2016 15:15
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We all know slavery is bad. What my book presupposes is, what if it wasn't?
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Feb 2, 2016 15:16
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Goku stopped slavery from sprouting on the planet Namek when he defeated the evil emperor Frieza. He is a hero imo.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:17
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I keep looking for that "what if a baby swallowed the nuclear launch codes?!" comic, but I can't find it at all...
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Feb 2, 2016 15:20
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RBA Starblade posted:Nobody flinches like that. Well, it's more like Jake Lloyd played it as a wince. It happens pretty fast, but if you look at the still shot of it his shoulders are raised and his eyes are squinted, like someone wincing from something. But also, your notion that because you were a twitchy kid you know how everyone flinches is kinda silly.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:20
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think you are as insightful as you think you are. You can construct scenarios in which slavery is a better option, yes. This isn't difficult. However, it's also not relevant. In this thread, if I state "I don't buy that Anakin's life as a slave is bad, because it is not shown to me within the movie," there are two responses, the first is flinchgate wherein we spend ages arguing over whether Anakin flinched or not. Assuming the conclusion to the first response is that Anakin did not flinch and the movie does not adequately show slavery being bad, then the second response arises. This is much more interesting. The second claim laid is that you should just assume slavery is bad because it's inherently wrong and that we're moral monsters for not assuming so immediately. I claim in response that there are plausible circumstances where slavery is beneficial and secondly that Anakin's life is significantly better than that of real people that we can draw a comparison to. Within universe, I think his life is significantly better than Rey's is. Given this, I think that the movie needs to do significantly more to make me buy into the idea that slavery is inherently wrong, given what I perceive to be a pretty happy child. But I've made the mistake of trying to engage with the thread instead of watching it go crazy because Tezzor is doing a reverse SMG. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 15:21
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Despite the dialogue and intention of the script at no point did I think Anakin had a bad life under Watto. He builds a giant pod racer, chills with his friends (and Greedo, remember him kids), talks back to Watto and even gets off work early, YIPEE!!
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Feb 2, 2016 15:22
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Beeez posted:Well, it's more like Jake Lloyd played it as a wince. It happens pretty fast, but if you look at the still shot of it his shoulders are raised and his eyes are squinted, like someone wincing from something. But also, your notion that because you were a twitchy kid you know how everyone flinches is kinda silly. Obviously, but it's more that nobody, anywhere winces by flailing their left arm, or flinches by also only flailing their left arm. It's bad acting.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:24
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Vintersorg posted:Despite the dialogue and intention of the script at no point did I think Anakin had a bad life under Watto. He builds a giant pod racer, chills with his friends (and Greedo, remember him kids), talks back to Watto and even gets off work early, YIPEE!! You are the corrupt republic. Congrats.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:25
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Within universe There is no "within universe". There is our universe, and nothing else.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:26
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Lt. Danger posted:There is no "within universe". There is our universe, and nothing else. Under some models there are an infinite number of universes.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:27
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This just in: slavery apparently not all that bad if it doesn't consist of 100% whippings all the time.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:29
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Serf posted:This just in: slavery apparently not all that bad if it doesn't consist of 100% whippings all the time. Slavery where you lead a secure life with leisure time and a home is better than living in poverty.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:32
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