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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Yeah, if the FDA or no such similar body existed this would in fact be one of the things that would happen. It actually is harmful. Extremely so, in fact; you can very easily Google up stories about sick people forgoing real treatments and instead sending money to mega churches or faith healers proclaiming they'll cure the disease with prayer. Here's a hint: it never works. The excuse then is "well they just didn't have enough faith and didn't send enough money." Snake oil stuff works about the same way and is why alt med stuff is so incredibly dangerous; your choices are die, get a really unpleasant treatment that might save your life, or go visit the homeopath that says he'll fix your problems and it won't even feel bad. No side effects! A lot of people get conned into the last one and that's the problem. It doesn't work. There's no scientific basis for. It wasn't tested, it wasn't reviewed, and is just some guy saying "this will cure you. If it doesn't the problem is you." That and you get people who are dying and desperate. Medicine can't cure everything and it admits it; it does the best it can but the human body is loving weird and also incredibly complex. The snake oil salesman just happens to have things that can cure everything but he can't tell you the secret because it's a secret!
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Feb 2, 2016 20:38
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:I think the libertarian anti-colonialism, at least jrod's, comes from it being governments that had colonies. ... Can I just mention the East India Company again here? Because it never gets old to see JRode ignore the fact that a privately owned company conquered a sub-continent all on its own without any government backing. Or, hell, the Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie ( VoC ) which was the first multinational company in the world and which also conquered various territories in the name of maximizing shareholder profit.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:38
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TLM3101 posted:Or, hell, the Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie ( VoC ) which was the first multinational company in the world That's an interesting bit of economic history. My mind immediately went to the Medici bank as a counterexample, but I can see why that'd be treated more as a confederacy of individual banks than anything else.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:06
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jrodefeld posted:I've already addressed this but because you lack reading comprehension, I'll rephrase it. How would you determine they were knowingly selling a product or service they know is useless with no FDA? The evidence would have to come from your advisory panels, right? They're the ones doing the clinical trials after all. Questions: Is it mandatory to get approval from one of these? Can anyone set themselves up as an advisory panel? If one of their approved drugs was killing people, wouldn't they have a massive incentive to falsify future trials? How are these panels funded? This is probably the most important one and unless you can answer it there's no way you can compare the likelyhood of corruption compared to a government agency. Even if these panels were somehow honest, is there any reason someone can't market radium water as an 'experimental' or 'alternative' treatment?
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Feb 2, 2016 21:08
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TLM3101 posted:... Can I just mention the East India Company again here? Because it never gets old to see JRode ignore the fact that a privately owned company conquered a sub-continent all on its own without any government backing. Well both of those were chartered by a government or something so therefore they don't count, clearly. Furthermore-*long, slow cabbage fart*
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Feb 2, 2016 21:10
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It actually is harmful. Extremely so, in fact; you can very easily Google up stories about sick people forgoing real treatments and instead sending money to mega churches or faith healers proclaiming they'll cure the disease with prayer. Here's a hint: it never works. The excuse then is "well they just didn't have enough faith and didn't send enough money." Snake oil stuff works about the same way and is why alt med stuff is so incredibly dangerous; your choices are die, get a really unpleasant treatment that might save your life, or go visit the homeopath that says he'll fix your problems and it won't even feel bad. No side effects! Thing is they won't sue for it because they're idiots. The entire system jrod proposed would only punish literal poisons, and do nothing to ensure the sugar pills masquerading as aspirin actually get taken off the market. They're harmful in lieu of actual treatments, but not in a way where someone would peruse damages because the huckster's treatments didn't create harm on its own, merely fail to address the existing harm. Thus the problem.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:13
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TLM3101 posted:... Can I just mention the East India Company again here? Because it never gets old to see JRode ignore the fact that a privately owned company conquered a sub-continent all on its own without any government backing. Don't forget United Fruit! Banana Republics are called that for a reason.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:15
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Well both of those were chartered by a government or something so therefore they don't count, clearly. Furthermore-*long, slow cabbage fart* Is jrod advocating for the immediate revocation of all corporate charters? That'd be something to see. How do libertarians feel about limited liability?
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Feb 2, 2016 21:23
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jrodefeld posted:Are you familiar with Emmanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative? As an essential part of his formulation of just ethics is the principle that moral action must be an action that can be willed to be universal law. Universalizability thus became an essential component of any just ethical rule and, by extension, any just law. lol you can't even spell Immanuel despite having copy/pasted fro the loving wikipedia page, jesus loving christ also this is a gross misrepresentation of universalization. there are laws that those who have committed felonies should not own guns. there are laws that say those under a given age cannot give meaningful consent, and that you cannot legally gently caress people who cannot give meaningful consent. these laws delineate people into groups, because universalization is not about all people being the same, it's about being able to make the same decision in all similar circumstances. i'm not reading any of the other posts, hopefully nobody else already made this point
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Feb 2, 2016 21:32
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what is the likelihood that jrode is in fact 19 years old and has just begun his philosophy 101 elective, and thinks he's stumped us by formulating the categorical imperative in a needlessly specific way? i mean i guess he could be taking adult education night classes or something but still
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Feb 2, 2016 21:37
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Muscle Tracer posted:what is the likelihood that jrode is in fact 19 years old and has just begun his philosophy 101 elective, and thinks he's stumped us by formulating the categorical imperative in a needlessly specific way? Jrod maintains that he is a cool and handsome adult. His actions paint him to be a scrawny, awkward early 20-something at best who probably still lives in the bedroom he grew up in.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:41
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Juffo-Wup posted:Is jrod advocating for the immediate revocation of all corporate charters? That'd be something to see. How do libertarians feel about limited liability? He's actually advocated that in the past, yeah. Only people can Act. Limited liability is a bad thing, any crime or aggression a company commits is the sole fault of the owner. Hahaha just kidding, the individual employee who pulled the trigger is responsible, the boss who threatened to fire him if he didn't bares no responsibility, just like how a man who hires an assassin is totally blameless. If you're planning on suing the company that just Bhopal'ed your town, make sure you can definitively prove exactly which low-level drone is the one responsible, so you can try to extract your settlement from him and him alone!
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Feb 2, 2016 21:41
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Muscle Tracer posted:lol you can't even spell Immanuel despite having copy/pasted fro the loving wikipedia page, jesus loving christ Additionally, for Kant, the object of universalizability is a maxim, not an act, where a maxim is understood to be a two-part psychological entity consisting of an intention to act a certain way, and a reason for acting that way. The upshot here is that to criticise policy on Kantian grounds requires an analysis of the reasons for adopting that policy, which is anathema for libertarians. Anyone who had actually read the second critique or the groundwork would be well aware that Kant sees the threat of punishment by an authority as essential to a properly functioning society.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:43
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jrodefeld posted:This is an argument that is particularly insulting. I've been persuaded over the years of the correctness of the libertarian position and this fact means that all I do is "intellectually steal and copy from other people"? Everything I've ever written here are my own words YOU'RE LYING
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Feb 2, 2016 21:44
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jrodefeld posted:My point, had you been actually listening, was that the FDA is not above corruption and political pressure. Unlike pharmaceutical companies who would test their own product and make bank if said product cured disease (in Libertopia). They meet the categorical imperative or something.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:47
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I still don't know why we should care about property rights.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:47
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Nolanar posted:I still don't know why we should care about property rights. We should definitely care about eradicating them.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:50
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Nolanar posted:I still don't know why we should care about property rights. Because Jrod said so with big words and cited men who also wrote words. Also Jrod is so handsome that he ignores everyone's posts.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:05
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Who What Now posted:Absolutely. Because whatever you claim to support your policies will actually lead to a new age on conquistadores slaughtering and enslaving people in order to pillage natural resources. That is the world your ideology leads towards. You ignorant child.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:05
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Who What Now posted:Jrod maintains that he is a cool and handsome adult. His actions paint him to be a scrawny, awkward early 20-something at best who probably still lives in the bedroom he grew up in. Also dollars to donuts says he smells awful.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:10
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:Because Jrod said so with big words and cited men who also wrote words. Also Jrod is so handsome that he ignores everyone's posts. Don't look directly at jrod or his posts for too long or you'll go blind.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:12
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Oh, dear, dear, dear Jrod. Of course you would double down on something that even has its own wikipedia page on it being bunk as the reason your scam treatment was totally the right idea you guyssssss 
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Feb 2, 2016 22:16
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Juffo-Wup posted:Is jrod advocating for the immediate revocation of all corporate charters? That'd be something to see. How do libertarians feel about limited liability? I seem to remember jrodefeld being opposed to limited liability, but it's been a while and I only ever read about 40% of his posts before my ant-like attention span demands my intellect elsewhere.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:20
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The whole "chronic lyme disease revelation as justification for dangerous, unnecessary dental work" is making me suspect Jrod's not just a stupid rear end in a top hat, but also legit mentally ill (presuming he's not lying about the whole deal, of course, of which I'm not yet convinced). Why did it take me this long to come around, you might rightly ask? Well so far, he's mostly been posting stupid/evil bullshit that's largely theoretical nonsense that'll never come about, no matter how much he may claim to want it. The dental work and questionable disease diagnosis is the first example I can think of where he's done or said anything about his actual, personal life that comes across as being as loopy as the political nonsense he's constantly blathering on about. I would also to support Who What Now's assertion, as I'm on record as having accused Jrod of neglecting his personal hygiene at least once already.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:27
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StandardVC10 posted:I seem to remember jrodefeld being opposed to limited liability, but it's been a while and I only ever read about 40% of his posts before my ant-like attention span demands my intellect elsewhere. But wouldn't that mean the end of capitalism? It's not a mistake that the emergence of joint-stock companies coincided with with the emergence of limited liability as a legal concept. The only alternatives to limited liability that have ever been tried are guild-based and collectivized economies.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:32
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Juffo-Wup posted:But wouldn't that mean the end of capitalism? It's not a mistake that the emergence of joint-stock companies coincided with with the emergence of limited liability as a legal concept. The only alternatives to limited liability that have ever been tried are guild-based and collectivized economies. LOL if you think "ever been tried" is something that an-caps care about.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:33
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Juffo-Wup posted:But wouldn't that mean the end of capitalism? It's not a mistake that the emergence of joint-stock companies coincided with with the emergence of limited liability as a legal concept. The only alternatives to limited liability that have ever been tried are guild-based and collectivized economies. It helps to remember they think market forces are literally magic that always work right if not hobbled by the evils of state intervention/existence.
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Feb 2, 2016 22:37
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Captain_Maclaine posted:The whole "chronic lyme disease revelation as justification for dangerous, unnecessary dental work" is making me suspect Jrod's not just a stupid rear end in a top hat, but also legit mentally ill (presuming he's not lying about the whole deal, of course, of which I'm not yet convinced). Why did it take me this long to come around, you might rightly ask? Well so far, he's mostly been posting stupid/evil bullshit that's largely theoretical nonsense that'll never come about, no matter how much he may claim to want it. The dental work and questionable disease diagnosis is the first example I can think of where he's done or said anything about his actual, personal life that comes across as being as loopy as the political nonsense he's constantly blathering on about. Anti-vaccination was my go to when I started to worry about him. Also when I started to hate him because gently caress people who are 'just asking questions' about the efficacy of life saving medication. As an aside, this whole thing plus the FDA crap says a lot about his world view. Namely jrodefeld seems to believe in far reaching conspiracy theories where the sinister 'them', in this case the government, is literally killing millions by delaying effective treatment. This is 9/11 truther levels of nonsense. By the way Jrod, did the government do 9/11?
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Feb 2, 2016 22:38
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Who What Now posted:
Remember all of those sweet "AAA RATED" mortgage-backed securities that were really complete garbage but companies like S&P were paid big bucks to rate them high so they did?
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Feb 2, 2016 22:48
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theshim posted:Oh, dear, dear, dear Jrod. Of course you would double down on something that even has its own wikipedia page on it being bunk as the reason your scam treatment was totally the right idea you guyssssss Listen, you can't prove that he isn't a special snowflake that for really-real had "chronic" Lyme disease and that it wasn't cause by his fillings. Ergo ipso facto post hoc proctor hoc QED e pluribus unum *shits pants violently*
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Feb 2, 2016 22:48
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Captain_Maclaine posted:The whole "chronic lyme disease revelation as justification for dangerous, unnecessary dental work" is making me suspect Jrod's not just a stupid rear end in a top hat, but also legit mentally ill (presuming he's not lying about the whole deal, of course, of which I'm not yet convinced). Why did it take me this long to come around, you might rightly ask? Well so far, he's mostly been posting stupid/evil bullshit that's largely theoretical nonsense that'll never come about, no matter how much he may claim to want it. The dental work and questionable disease diagnosis is the first example I can think of where he's done or said anything about his actual, personal life that comes across as being as loopy as the political nonsense he's constantly blathering on about. Caros posted:Anti-vaccination was my go to when I started to worry about him. Also when I started to hate him because gently caress people who are 'just asking questions' about the efficacy of life saving medication. Antivax and Chronic Lyme aren't signs of mental illness, they're signs of general stupidity. Stuff like chronic Lyme self-diagnosis tends to pop up when someone is in genuine physical pain and doctors can't figure out why. Then some website or charlatan dentist comes in and says "hey, I know why you're hurting, and I can fix it." That's an incredibly compelling pitch! It's also why nobody advocates prosecuting the "patients" in these situations: they're victims who were taken advantage of by scam artists. JRod doesn't belong in prison for getting his fillings drilled out, but I can't say the same about his dentist. Really, the whole thing is an excellent argument for the same state apparatus he's trying to attack with it. edit: I can't stress this enough though, stop armchair-diagnosing people with mental illness for disagreeing with you, even if they're JRod. Goon Danton fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 22:57
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Muscle Tracer posted:what is the likelihood that jrode is in fact 19 years old and has just begun his philosophy 101 elective, and thinks he's stumped us by formulating the categorical imperative in a needlessly specific way? E:Pretty sure this is him, frex http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12417071#post12417071 eNeMeE fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 22:58
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Nolanar posted:Antivax and Chronic Lyme aren't signs of mental illness, they're signs of general stupidity. Stuff like chronic Lyme self-diagnosis tends to pop up when someone is in genuine physical pain and doctors can't figure out why. Then some website or charlatan dentist comes in and says "hey, I know why you're hurting, and I can fix it." That's an incredibly compelling pitch! It's also why nobody advocates prosecuting the "patients" in these situations: they're victims who were taken advantage of by scam artists. JRod doesn't belong in prison for getting his fillings drilled out, but I can't say the same about his dentist. I want to be clear I wasn't diagnosing him. I was just doing regular mockery.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:01
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Who What Now posted:I want to be clear I wasn't diagnosing him. I was just doing regular mockery. Forgot to quote the right people. I'll fix it.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:08
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brugroffil posted:Remember all of those sweet "AAA RATED" mortgage-backed securities that were really complete garbage but companies like S&P were paid big bucks to rate them high so they did? It's a good thing the FDA doesn't rely on business from the drug manufacturers to make a profit. Feel free to try to market a new drug without their approval though. See how far you get.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:08
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Juffo-Wup posted:But wouldn't that mean the end of capitalism? Sure, which is not in contradiction with their beliefs, which include the conceit that actually existing capitalism is "crony capitalism" and that "true capitalism," free from The State, would be much better somehow. The reality is that they're useful idiots for capitalism and so these implications don't matter so long as their conviction translates into legislation favorable to corporate interests.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:35
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 220 new posts, the master returnsAnd still as stubborn a child as ever.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:38
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Nolanar posted:Antivax and Chronic Lyme aren't signs of mental illness, they're signs of general stupidity. Stuff like chronic Lyme self-diagnosis tends to pop up when someone is in genuine physical pain and doctors can't figure out why. Then some website or charlatan dentist comes in and says "hey, I know why you're hurting, and I can fix it." That's an incredibly compelling pitch! It's also why nobody advocates prosecuting the "patients" in these situations: they're victims who were taken advantage of by scam artists. JRod doesn't belong in prison for getting his fillings drilled out, but I can't say the same about his dentist. I disagree to some extent, if only because fool me once, shame on me, fool me seven thousand times shame on... Not gonna get fooled again. The reason why I am concerned for jrod's mental state is the same reason I would be concerned if I walked into a room where every square inch of wall space was covered in wall clippings about the Illuminati. Just upthread jrodefeld talked about how he believes the fda has led to millions of deaths as a result of holding back life saving treatment. He has in other threads talked about how vaccination is a scam to steal money with forced injections and so forth. That is paranoia and we are jrodefeld's crazy newspaper clipping wall. This isn't a 'ha ha let's diminish mental illness' that was me admitting that I'm actually a little worried about a guy who would undergo not inexpensive dental treatment despite a preponderance of evidence pointing to its uselessness based in part on his irrational belief that the government is always wrong.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:38
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Nolanar posted:Antivax and Chronic Lyme aren't signs of mental illness, they're signs of general stupidity. Stuff like chronic Lyme self-diagnosis tends to pop up when someone is in genuine physical pain and doctors can't figure out why. Then some website or charlatan dentist comes in and says "hey, I know why you're hurting, and I can fix it." That's an incredibly compelling pitch! It's also why nobody advocates prosecuting the "patients" in these situations: they're victims who were taken advantage of by scam artists. JRod doesn't belong in prison for getting his fillings drilled out, but I can't say the same about his dentist. While I agree generally, I think we've seen more than enough persistent denial of reality from Jrod, in extreme enough form, to raise an eyebrow and begin to suspect the boy ain't right in the head. I mean yeah, I've no professional capacity to diagnose, but he's borderlining Toblerone Triangular's "I ejaculate into my own bladder to preserve my essence" level of nonsense with this medical stuff. Regardless, I trust we're all in agreement that he really should bathe more frequently, yes?
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Feb 2, 2016 23:39
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I'm still wondering how he knows that Black Lives Matter, Occupy, and the Tea Party were all anarcho-capitalist movements that got hijacked by statist infiltrators.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:58
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