|
TheCIASentMe posted:What if Metatron really is dead and someone is just using his body as a charade? Fill his lungs with air and play him like a bagpipe to make the holy words come out. 82 White Chain Born in Emptiness Returns to Subdue Evil thinks so, but she might just be gullible. And 2 Michael (in case anyone doesn't know, Mi cha El means "Who is like God?" in hebrew) never actually lies, he says their path is evil, but that sometimes evil is wise. I like Comrade Gorbash's idea about names, and it would imply that Michael was never slain in the void, which might explain why he was able to reincarnate sooner.
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:I like Comrade Gorbash's idea about names, and it would imply that Michael was never slain in the void, which might explain why he was able to reincarnate sooner. Because he ran away like a wuss. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 00:10
|
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:On this page the bouncer at the guilded cage implies the destruction of White Chain's body would lead to her reincarnation. It doesn't mention her body, though. I think that it's probably necessary that her true form, that of her soul, be destroyed as well, which is something that can likely be done by the various sorcerers and devils in Preem Nash's hell. The possibility also exists that sufficient damage to the body, or damage of a certain kind, might damage the angel inside it. In the Void itself, we do know with certainty that the soul is susceptible to destruction and subsequent reincarnation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 00:31
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Because he ran away like a wuss. let's be fair, zoss was a force of loving nature you try to stand and fight a pyroclastic flow, you're gonna die. is there really dishonor in that
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 00:42
|
|
|
Tollymain posted:let's be fair, zoss was a force of loving nature Metis posted:Once your house is built, you have no further need for a sword, since it is an ugly piece of metal and its adherents idiots.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 00:47
|
|
|
We've seen 82 White Chains body destroyed, forcing her out, and subsequently repaired by a human, allowing her back, and the number of her incarnation did not change. Her material state (liquid) and her name also didn't change. Now, I'm expecting people to argue with me about a big loving metal needle through the eye "killing" her shell or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 01:56
|
|
|
nah that's not destruction at all, just suspension like, i'm pretty sure that's how michael is in the void right now
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:05
|
|
|
I'd bet my rear end they can just willingly leave their shells to return to the void whenever they want.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:32
|
|
|
brb guys gotta make a call *stabs self through eye*
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
Tollymain posted:nah that's not destruction at all, just suspension And his void form is goth Big Bird?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:36
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:brb guys gotta make a call *stabs self through eye* "boy I sure do hope there is a human around to bring me back when I'm done." Unless you don't think it's significant that Cio had to take 82 white chains body to Allison to get it "fixed"
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:"boy I sure do hope there is a human around to bring me back when I'm done." yknow i didnt think about that but yeah, those shells they wear were originally made by zoss et al, right? so it makes sense that they need humans to give them a hard reboot or w/e when they get inconveniently disincarnated
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:39
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:"boy I sure do hope there is a human around to bring me back when I'm done." What I do think is significant is that Cio wasn't able to remove the needle herself. When the demiurges built the angels current bodies, they apparently made certain that demons couldn't interfere with them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:41
|
|
|
i mean, that makes sense. you dont want some wiseass devil going around turning off all the policemen in throne
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:42
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:i mean, that makes sense. you dont want some wiseass devil going around turning off all the policemen in throne Likewise, if for some reason you want a specific angel turned off, you don't want some wiseass devil turning them back on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
on the topic of devils - its pretty conclusive that their masks are what house their personalities and so forth, yeah? Preem Nands """"girls"""" seem to have some kind of consistency to them, despite being formed from a couple randomly selected faceless things. Vladok lost himself when he broke his mask and got reformed as Luna Longname. hell this might have even been stated outright at some point, i cant remember e. actually on the flip side, Ciocie seems to have some kind of continuity between herself and the her that stole the gate key, before being demoted. so maybe thats not how it works. all i know is that maskless devils are brainless chaotic assholes. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:50
|
|
|
i'm pretty sure angels can handle/remove those needles though
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:51
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:on the topic of devils - its pretty conclusive that their masks are what house their personalities and so forth, yeah? Preem Nands """"girls"""" seem to have some kind of consistency to them, despite being formed from a couple randomly selected faceless things. Vladok lost himself when he broke his mask and got reformed as Luna Longname. yeah the masks and names give them form and limits, they all want to break as many of their limitations as possible but it turns out with no limits at all you're just a hungry piece of the Hot Black Flame and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqVbOSEsJNo&t=81s how exactly, like, swapping a mask would work isn't clear, or what's normally involved in gaining/losing names, but Cio never lost her mask and so has always been Cio plus or minus whatever traits her names give her A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:43
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:on the topic of devils - its pretty conclusive that their masks are what house their personalities and so forth, yeah? Preem Nands """"girls"""" seem to have some kind of consistency to them, despite being formed from a couple randomly selected faceless things. Vladok lost himself when he broke his mask and got reformed as Luna Longname. The girls are devils possessing servants, so it's the same devil in a different body. When they do that, only the mask is apparently devilish, Preem Nand is a gilded devil possesing a servant, but presumably the devils atum is there too. The humans say Vladok will remember in time, so there is some consistency there too, Princess Blueberry might just be too drunk to remember. Of course this consistency is only shown to apply to bound devils, if a devil completely unbinds and returns to the black flame it might not be possible to summon the same devil again, although if you tried a different devil might try to trick you into thinking it's them. That's just speculation. For more speculation, maybe Allison was able to remove the needle because of her key. And yes, the similarities between what happened in Hell 71 and her banishment now seem to imply this won't increase her number either. On another topic, I am adapting rules from a role playing game I enjoy to run a KSBD game, but I am a little stuck on what to call the level of expertise a character has in the Art, nothing i come up with seems to suit the flavor. Anyone have any ideas?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:52
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:We've seen 82 White Chains body destroyed, forcing her out, and subsequently repaired by a human, allowing her back, and the number of her incarnation did not change. Her material state (liquid) and her name also didn't change. Yeah, I think it takes death in the Void to lead to a reset of the material state and a name change. Destruction of a shell just forces an angel back into the Void. I'd bet that White Chain is still bound to that shell until and unless someone makes a new one for her and goes through some kind of binding ritual to connect her to it (at which point she'd become 83 White Chain). It would fit with the info from the retroactive page and some exposition we've had, mostly from 2 Michael. The number as shell count idea assumes it won't iterate until that new binding occurs. When White Chain took a needle through the eye, it forced her out of her shell, but didn't damage the shell badly enough that she couldn't re-enter it once Alison took the needle out. The much bigger spike they hammered into that shell, though, probably destroyed it. At a minimum it'd take serious repair before White Chain could return to it. Thus, her state being referred to as banishment and the offer of a new body to end it. paranoid randroid posted:brb guys gotta make a call *stabs self through eye* As for Angel's ability to return to the void, I'd say the evidence points to it being a voluntary thing. At will, or at least not requiring a great effort. The risk would be that, if you weren't sure your body was in a safe spot, someone could wreck it and banish you. However... even if the spikes are needed to force an Angel back into the Void, that doesn't mean they need Humans to get them back out. We've obviously seen Angels handling them without any trouble. I'd wager Cio didn't pull it because the spikes are harmful to Devils. Or, rather, harmful to any spirit of the void. It would fit with the way we've seen the spikes work. Angels are Flame within a hard shell - the spike has to penetrate that shell before it can harm the spirit within. Humans (and presumably Servants) can touch it because they are corporeal creatures. Devils, though, as incarnate spirits without protection would be extremely vulnerable to the things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 04:18
|
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:
Sovereignty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 04:20
|
|
|
Hiveminded posted:Sovereignty. I like it. But I don't want to give players the impression that it is better than other play styles, someone could be just as effective (probably more) by being a furious dumbass with no knowledge of the art. Sovereignty would be a good word for generic experience level, but it isn't a system that uses levels, so... To be more specific, I am adapting fantasy flight's Edge of the Empire Star Wars RPG. So this is the equivalent of what are called "Force Ranks" in that game, a stat that improves the effectiveness of all force powers used. Force powers are now the Art, but what do I call those ranks? Sovereignty sounds too important, like a character with a higher sovereignty is always better, when in reality it is just one play style, and a character can be equally effective through brawn, agility, cunning, intellect, willpower, or presence (the six abilty scores used in the game). Sovereignty, as it gets used in the comic and mythos, seems to strike me as sort of like destiny. It's the capacity to rule over throne, which is closely related to will but not exactly the same? In the KSBD RPG, use of the art is tied to the Mind stat, so it somehow involves thinking, and knowledge... I thought I was already using Insight for something else, but it looks like I am not so I might go with that. edit: mastery is good too! Blackula Vs. Tarantula fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 04:29
|
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:On another topic, I am adapting rules from a role playing game I enjoy to run a KSBD game, but I am a little stuck on what to call the level of expertise a character has in the Art, nothing i come up with seems to suit the flavor. Anyone have any ideas? Mastery
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 05:18
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:Yeah, I think it takes death in the Void to lead to a reset of the material state and a name change. Destruction of a shell just forces an angel back into the Void. I'd bet that White Chain is still bound to that shell until and unless someone makes a new one for her and goes through some kind of binding ritual to connect her to it (at which point she'd become 83 White Chain). I think you might be contradicting yourself a little bit in the second part here. I agree with you on it probably requiring death in the void before an angel reincarnates and acquires their next number, but if that's really the case then mere destruction of the shell shouldn't necessarily mean reincarnation, just that it's time for a new set of armor. If I had to guess, I'd bet in the case of shell destruction without the death of their essence (or whatever it's called) an angel probably has a choice to either stay in the void and prepare to assume their next form voluntarily (thus acquiring their next number) or repair their shell and return to it (or acquire a new one like the Thorns offered) to continue condensing their current form. Destruction of their shell as well as the essence contained within would absolutely send them on to reincarnation though, requiring them to condense their next form along with acquire a new shell. Although having typed all that up, now that I think about it their shells were all forged by Zoss and the demiurges so I wonder how a reincarnated angel would go about finding a new shell what with the gods all at each other's throats and not really cooperating or caring about the upkeep of Throne anymore.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 05:18
|
|
|
Here's a few words from the author about the subject of angel's and their bodies.Abbadon posted:Angels can carry their bodies in to the void, they just tend not to stay inside them, for obvious reasons. It’d be like leaving a haz-mat suit on while walking inside your house. http://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr.com/post/138551388415/what-happens-when-an-incarnate-angel-passes
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
It's The Art, so Artistry?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 05:29
|
|
|
I dunno, I always figured the needle was just Cio's attitude about The Way These Things Should Be Done. Allison's the heroine, therefore Allison pulls the not-quite-a-sword from the stone. That, or Cio's a bit of a wet noodle by devil standards - she rode White Chain's body down to the lounge, but I'm not sure we ever saw her actually supporting the armor's weight.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 06:14
|
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:On another topic, I am adapting rules from a role playing game I enjoy to run a KSBD game, but I am a little stuck on what to call the level of expertise a character has in the Art, nothing i come up with seems to suit the flavor. Anyone have any ideas? Duplicity? Artifice? The greatest Art is lying to the face of God, after all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 06:30
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:When White Chain took a needle through the eye, it forced her out of her shell, but didn't damage the shell badly enough that she couldn't re-enter it once Alison took the needle out. The much bigger spike they hammered into that shell, though, probably destroyed it. At a minimum it'd take serious repair before White Chain could return to it. Thus, her state being referred to as banishment and the offer of a new body to end it. did they hammer the spike into white chain's armour or was the hammer for destroying her armour after she was banished?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 06:42
|
|
|
Well she didn't blow up like a nuke and die when she got shunted out, so if they completely destroyed her armor, they did it after forcing her out of it. And it has to be said again, Humans make the angel armor (Koss made the originals, but Zoss and his "friends" destroyed most/all of that), reincarnation itself doesn't have poo poo to do with the armor.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
ahahaha "...and repulsive, I suppose"
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 08:35
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:ahahaha "...and repulsive, I suppose" We seem to have a new update. The plot of brothers thickens. Archenteron fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:07
|
|
|
That is some prime crazy-face in the second to last panel. I like how a more distant viewpoint makes Metatron look more pathetic and broken than powerful. This comic has good art.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:12
|
|
|
Cryophage posted:Duplicity? Artifice? Artifice is a good name for the skill, but for ranks of power i don't know if it works. It needs to fit in sentences like this: "Start with 1 Insight and Scry, you still may not have more than 1 Insight at character creation" "Use Prophecy, Scry, and Sense at +1 Insight. You can learn these Arts even if you otherwise have no Insight." Wow, way to answer all of our previous speculation in one update! White chain dies a lot to get all the way to 82... Have we seen a higher number yet? Blackula Vs. Tarantula fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:18
|
|
|
Holy poo poo 2 Michael is really really loving crazy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:57
|
|
|
Captain Redbeard posted:Artifice is a good name for the skill, but for ranks of power i don't know if it works. It needs to fit in sentences like this: "Start with 1 Insight and Scry, you still may not have more than 1 Insight at character creation" "Use Prophecy, Scry, and Sense at +1 Insight. You can learn these Arts even if you otherwise have no Insight." Sovereignty or a synonym thereof is probably the best you're gonna get, it's the hubris and power to play God and the defining talent of the ruling class of a superhumanly arrogant society of demigods. You're talking guys who call themselves things like "Demiurges", "Dread Masters of the Universe", "Conquering King", and can back it up. But students of Aesma knows how to handle arrogant sovereigns
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:58
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:Sovereignty or a synonym thereof is probably the best you're gonna get, it's the hubris and power to play God and the defining talent of the ruling class of a superhumanly arrogant society of demigods. You're talking guys who call themselves things like "Demiurges", "Dread Masters of the Universe", "Conquering King", and can back it up. But students of Aesma knows how to handle arrogant sovereigns I just wish i could think of a word for a unit of sovereignty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 10:03
|
|
|
actually looking back Royalty (and syllables of ) is the standard nomenclature
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 10:08
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:actually looking back Royalty (and syllables of ) is the standard nomenclature Royalty is a pretty good word for it. Are we sure it doesn't mean something else though? I always thought its use was more figurative, like, someone could have royalty or know syllables of royalty with knowing the art. Are they the same thing? What about strings? Associations with string theory (knowledge of a secret structure of the universe) but also pulling the strings, as in attempting to exert control. And when we see Cio use the art, it is represented with a string connecting her words. Or more importantly, does everyone who uses the art know at least one syllable of royalty? Is that how it works? Blackula Vs. Tarantula fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 10:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
Royalty is always conflated with supreme power and transcendent understanding of the universe, to know the seven syllables of royalty and their seven intonations is as close to understanding Yisun and their work as anyone really gets. I don't think that's really how it works in the universe (most of the magic we've seen in use seems to require no more innate command of magical theory than use of a cellphone requires understanding of subatomic physics, for the same reasons - it's stuff like Mottom tossing killing words around or the demiurges creating the keys that's special and innate to the caster) but between the two you can whip up a convenient 49-point sliding scale from the mundane to functional omnipotence so A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 10:21
|
|