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euphronius posted:Dm: you detect that your thoughts are clouded  quote:how is the sheev having a super special ability the It's not that surprising that someone who can do something with the force that nobody else can can also do a second thing that nobody else can, really.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:21
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Tezzor posted:"Here's my theory for why what's going on and how there's a lot of hidden depth and complexity and the Jedi were flawed heroes" how does your fanfiction make the prequels bad? also explain this "most official explanation" nonsense
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Feb 3, 2016 19:22
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Tezzor posted:"Here's my theory for why what's going on and how there's a lot of hidden depth and complexity and the Jedi were flawed heroes" It's kinda cool how canon has become this straitjacket. Sherlockians conclude that Watson was married anywhere from once to six times and this debate is perpetual, TVTropesians like Goatstein slip their brain into the manacles and sneer at those who don't.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:23
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Vintersorg posted:This is dumb because they crushed anyone who openly disobeyed them. Crushed them how? Using what? I doubt the military would serve someone they thought was evil. That's sorta the point of the Death Star. To give the Emperor maximum killpower with the minimum amount of humans necessary to run it.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:23
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DARPA posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ESOrF_u1hg The dark side isn't 'being angry'. It's acting in a way that's unjust. That's what it means to be 'clouded by the dark side'. Yoda is clouded by the dark side when he chooses to help fight an unjust war.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:23
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Waffles Inc. posted:how is the sheev having a super special ability the 1. It's the one supported in the novelization and the EU. 2. Causality. Palpatine was already a Sith Lord by the time the Jedi acted like retards and were talking about their clouded minds and diminished use of the force. Them acting this way predates their involvement in the Clone War, by years or decades, and in fact in the third movie after they did all the Evil Dark Side Things you think they did, they appear less oblivious, not more.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:24
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All this got me thinking that a more interesting conflict for the new trilogy could have been, instead of a bigger conflict across the galaxy an internal one within the new jedi order. The main conflict of the new trilogy would then be between Traditionalists who want the Jedi to go back to what they used to be and the Reformers who want to create a new Jedi Order free of the mistakes of the old one, with Luke sympathizing with the Reformers but unwilling to impose his views on the new generation. At the same time the conflict would be a metaphor for the series itself, stuck between reverence for the past and a desire to blaze new paths.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:26
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Some people, when their line of thinking leads them to crude conspiracy theories, conclude that they have set off down the wrong path. Others insist that they must be right, and it is the external universe which is wrong. This is the difference between "Sheev Palpatine is a racist stereotype, that's real, because Star Wars is bad" and "Magic RPG powers are a metaphorical representation within this novel targeted at adolescents."
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Feb 3, 2016 19:26
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SMG and Shrieking Fatbody Who Tells People to Kill Themselves At The Drop of a Hat I can see your posts occasionally under the reply field and you can stop addressing me directly because I'm not going to read what you have to say let alone respond to you
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Feb 3, 2016 19:28
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Serf posted:Crushed them how? Using what? I doubt the military would serve someone they thought was evil. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire It's all in the stories and lore. "During the reign of the Empire, countless star systems were conquered and dissident actions ruthlessly stamped out by the rapidly expanding Imperial Army and Navy. " "They never really mention it in the movies, but in the Empire, after Palpatine seized power, aliens were slowly being reduced to the status of second class citizens." http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.393840-What-makes-the-Empire-in-Star-Wars-evil And tons of other stuff. The military was theirs and they used it to silence anyone who didnt join.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:30
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Tezzor posted:SMG and Shrieking Fatbody Who Tells People to Kill Themselves At The Drop of a Hat I can see your posts occasionally under the reply field and you can stop addressing me directly because I'm not going to read what you have to say let alone respond to you this is a deeply ironic and weird post
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Feb 3, 2016 19:30
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Tezzor posted:SMG and Shrieking Fatbody Who Tells People to Kill Themselves At The Drop of a Hat I can see your posts occasionally under the reply field and you can stop addressing me directly because I'm not going to read what you have to say let alone respond to you A pretty good sign that you're on the wrong side is your need to preemptively shut down disagreement, rather than trust in your own brain.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:31
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Vintersorg posted:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire That's all well and good, but do you honestly think people would serve someone that they thought was evil? People could rationalize and explain away their motivations to do evil things, sure. I mean, that's actually what happened in-universe. Bill Stormtrooper doesn't wake up in the morning, put on his armor and walk out of the barracks thinking "gee it sure is great to be evil and I can't wait to go out and subjugate some aliens."
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Feb 3, 2016 19:33
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Let's check with the ultranerds to find out if the "religious freedom" argument holds water http://boards.theforce.net/threads/arrest-of-palpatine-legal.50015255/ quote:According to the Darth Bane novels, the Sith were a "banned organization". oh
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Feb 3, 2016 19:34
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None of the EU or novelizations are canon anymore so they can't even be held up as "the most official explanation" anymore, if they ever could be to begin with.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:36
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Serf posted:Crushed them how? Using what? I doubt the military would serve someone they thought was evil. Professional militaries serve the state, not the person controlling it. Their structure makes it easy to replace people who don't go along with state policy. Then there are people like this guy, a professional soldier who tried to remain in control of the German military by out-Naziing the Nazis and ultimately failed because he was an outsider, despite being put in that position by Hitler himself.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:37
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Tezzor posted:Let's check with the ultranerds to find out if the "religious freedom" argument holds water It's kinda cool how Star Wars discussions bring out opinions like "banning religions is cool" and "slavery isn't bad" and "I need to have it explained to me that child molestation is wrong." It's a perfect crossover between sci-fi fandom's often totally passive engagement with media and mass popularity.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:38
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I read every Tezzor post, and 'take them seriously'. Also, how can you have a 'banned organization' that consists of only two people? That seems, like, below a minimum threshold.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:38
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Professional militaries serve the state, not the person controlling it. Their structure makes it easy to replace people who don't go along with state policy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MHusGl9BeM
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Feb 3, 2016 19:39
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Effectronica posted:It's kinda cool how Star Wars discussions bring out opinions like "banning religions is cool" and "slavery isn't bad" and "I need to have it explained to me that child molestation is wrong." It's a perfect crossover between sci-fi fandom's often totally passive engagement with media and mass popularity. Your issue is that there is a bit of a difference between our world and the Star Wars universe. Sure, things like slavery and child molestation are bad, I dont think any movie/book etc would try to condone those. But with religion - its a little different here. The Sith and Jedi each follow the force. They pull from the same source but each side uses it differently. The Sith ultimately use it for evil and abuse their strength. They murder without issue. For instance, Darth Maul killed an entire innocent village and even executes 5 people via hologram communication with the Jedi. And you're saying, "well... the Sith might be good?"
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Feb 3, 2016 19:42
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What part of the movie did Darth Maul do that.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:43
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euphronius posted:What part of the movie did Darth Maul do that. Clone Wars series is officially canon. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_on_Raydonia Vintersorg fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 19:44
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dreamquote:The book's frame narrative and premise is that "after dabbling in radical politics", Adolf Hitler emigrated to the United States in 1919 and became a science fiction illustrator, editor and author. He wrote the science fantasy novel Lord of the Swastika in six weeks in 1953, shortly before dying of cerebral hemorrhage[2] (possibly caused by tertiary syphilis); Lord of the Swastika subsequently wins the Hugo Award and the "colorful uniforms" described therein become a regular feature of cosplayers at science fiction conventions. Hitler's other science fiction novels include The Master Race, The Thousand Year Rule, and The Triumph of the Will. quote:Lord of the Swastika is lauded for its qualities as a great work of heroic fantasy. To further hammer the point, in an early edition, actual science fiction writers wrote faux sincere "admiring" blurbs for Spinrad for the novel's back cover blurbs, praising "Hitler's" writing skills. Irony abounds in Whipple's review, as he singles out the mechanisms such as sheer force, midnight rallies, and phallic symbolism that in fact characterized Nazism's rise to power in Germany, blithely assuring us that such a rise would be quite ludicrous to contemplate in real life.[3] "After all", Dr. Whipple says, "it can't happen here."[4] quote:Backed by the army and the adoring multitudes, Feric sets about the great task of re-invigorating the military, ordering the production of tanks and fighter jets, the establishment of the Swastika Squad (SS)—a legion of the purest and most manly men that can be found via the "Classification Camps,"' which examine all citizens of Heldon (killing the Doms and sterilizing or exiling all relatively impure humans). After repelling a Zind attack through Wolack, Heldon annexes its western and southern neighbors, beginning with Borgravia. In the course of the Helderisation of its neighbors Jaggar orders, at the suggestion of Bors Remler, that all mutants are to be euthanised rather than exiled. Norman Spinrad posted:To make drat sure that even the historically naive and entirely unselfaware reader got the point, I appended a phony critical analysis of Lord of the Swastika, in which the psychopathology of Hitler's saga was spelled out by a tendentious pedant in words of one syllable. Almost everyone got the point... And yet one review appeared in a fanzine that really gave me pause. "This is a rousing adventure story and I really enjoyed it," the gist of it went. "Why did Spinrad have to spoil the fun with all this muck about Hitler?"
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Feb 3, 2016 19:46
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Vintersorg posted:Your issue is that there is a bit of a difference between our world and the Star Wars universe. Sure, things like slavery and child molestation are bad, I dont think any movie/book etc would try to condone those. But with religion - its a little different here. I wrote a post about this earlier. There are religions in our world that are, for the vast majority of people's beliefs, evil. Their adherents even claim magical powers. So, should we kill all the LaVeyan Satanists and white-nationalist neopagans? Or is the difference that there's a certain percentage of people who have done bad things that belonged to this religion, or perhaps it's the precise nature of the magical powers that makes the moral difference?
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Feb 3, 2016 19:48
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Why would clouding people's minds be a Sith ability? That's a Jedi trick.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:51
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Yeah, exactly. The importance of him being the Senate is that he has brought the entire state apparatus under his personal control by this point. The military, the civilian bureaucracy, the planetary governments, etc. all are his to command unless they opt out through violent rebellion.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:51
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I forget how sad Vader's breathing apparatus sounds when it's barely wheezing, as he asks Luke to remove the mask for him.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:56
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Effectronica posted:I wrote a post about this earlier. There are religions in our world that are, for the vast majority of people's beliefs, evil. Their adherents even claim magical powers. So, should we kill all the LaVeyan Satanists and white-nationalist neopagans? Or is the difference that there's a certain percentage of people who have done bad things that belonged to this religion, or perhaps it's the precise nature of the magical powers that makes the moral difference? Who cares about our world. We don't have magic wizards enforcing their law upon people. It's your fault you can't separate the two. In the world of Star Wars the Sith must be put down. This is an accepted fact.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:56
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As usual, it all returns back to the droid slavery, because every character's version of 'democracy' excludes the droids. And what you get at the end of Episode 3 is the unwinnable battle between Obiwan's belief in democracy without justice and Anakin's belief in justice without democracy. The characters are unable to imagine a system that is both democratic and just. That's the issue that haunts the entire series, as true universal democracy - the only thing that could truly defeat Palpatine - would involve freeing the droids. Vintersorg posted:Who cares about our world. Lots of people believe this in our real world. They just call them the jews and/or muslims. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 19:57
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Yeah, exactly. The importance of him being the Senate is that he has brought the entire state apparatus under his personal control by this point. The military, the civilian bureaucracy, the planetary governments, etc. all are his to command unless they opt out through violent rebellion. Which is why the majority of the galaxy (or at least what was the Republic, the movies are unclear on the boundaries) must believe that the Emperor is, at worst, roughly the same as the Republic was. It takes 19 years for a Rebellion to develop to the point where they can launch a meaningful strike against the Empire, so most people must have been okay with the situation. All I'm saying is that it's not hard to see things from the perspective of Joe Galactic Citizen. The Emperor kept the galaxy safe from the evil alien Separatists, doing what those lazy Senators never could. Then the Jedi tried to take over, but he stopped them, and that's a good thing because they were crazy wizards with laser-swords. And heck, the Senate still exists, so it's not like democracy is completely gone or anything. Then almost two decades later the Emperor dissolves the Senate and blows up Alderaan and people quickly wise up to what's been going on. The only reason his plan to completely dominate the galaxy fails is because of a two-meter wide hole and a Force-sensitive moisture farmer.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:59
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Parachute posted:I forget how sad Vader's breathing apparatus sounds when it's barely wheezing, as he asks Luke to remove the mask for him. Such great sound design there. Maybe the coolest sound effect of the whole series.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:59
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Good book.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:59
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Vintersorg posted:Who cares about our world. "This is a rousing adventure story and I really enjoyed it. Why did Spinrad have to spoil the fun with all this muck about Hitler?" In the world of Star Wars, the Sith are a danger for about 3% of the time, going by them disappearing for a thousand years and then Sheevy getting about 30 years of tearing up the galaxy. Now, you've got the eternal dodge of "You have come to a world called Gor, where slavery is OK", but diegetically, the Sith are, in all likelihood, less of a danger than supernovas.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:02
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Basebf555 posted:Such great sound design there. Maybe the coolest sound effect of the whole series. Ben Burtt is god.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:02
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Serf posted:Which is why the majority of the galaxy (or at least what was the Republic, the movies are unclear on the boundaries) must believe that the Emperor is, at worst, roughly the same as the Republic was. It takes 19 years for a Rebellion to develop to the point where they can launch a meaningful strike against the Empire, so most people must have been okay with the situation. It's easy to imagine a "first they came for the communists" situation happening, too. It will be interesting to see how (if at all) they handle this aspect of the galactic power transition in the upcoming anthology films. I say "if at all" because TFA is highly reluctant to explain anything except through vague visual allusion.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:16
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What's really bizarre in TFA is that, given everything we see in the prequels, the destruction of the Republic should be like "they blew up congress!" - a darkly comedic scene where we delight in evil, against our better judgement. Instead, they take the ridiculous concept - only one step removed from executing Jar Jar onscreen - and play it as 9/11 and the holocaust mixed together. It falls totally flat, because nobody likes the Republic.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What's really bizarre in TFA is that, given everything we see in the prequels, the destruction of the Republic should be like "they blew up congress!" - a darkly comedic scene where we delight in evil, against our better judgement. When Canada burned down the capital (lol), they actually burned down all of America.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What's really bizarre in TFA is that, given everything we see in the prequels, the destruction of the Republic should be like "they blew up congress!" - a darkly comedic scene where we delight in evil, against our better judgement. The threat doesn't feel real because by doing so all the First Order is doing is trying to destroy the backing-element of the Resistance, despite after that happening the Resistance doesn't really need to call upon the Republic fleet to help destroy Starkiller Base in the first place.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:43
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Tezzor posted:1. It's the one supported in the novelization and the EU. I find it so strange you keep pointing to the novelization as evidence when it actually totally opposes your view in this argument. Much of the novelization's word count is devoted to beating you over the head with "The Jedi have totally hosed up and lost their way, they indoctrinate kids and deprive them of the ability to healthily process human emotion, they pretty much lost the moment they decided to fight in a war, they're too attached to the Republic". Palpatine even plays the "freedom of religion" card in it. You look at this and ignore all of it in favor of promoting this weird "dark side ability" idea. Even the guy chosen to write the novel based on the movie disagrees entirely with your knee-jerk response to what the movie was "trying" to get across, and explains the concept in detail, yet you still think it's "fanon" that people are totally pulling out of their rear end, and even use this thing that totally disagrees with your interpretation as evidence of your interpretation. It's mind boggling.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:47
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RBA Starblade posted:When Canada burned down the capital (lol), they actually burned down all of America. You're missing the innate appeal of disaster movies and, say, Godzilla films. People want to see their country destroyed onscreen. 
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Feb 3, 2016 21:24
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