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Rexroom posted:Li Andersson of the Left Alliance has declared that he will run for party leadership. Those party elections will be held sometime not soon. Hope she makes it. She's pretty sensible, and as a bonus it will rile up the dumbshits to no end. Geriatric Pirate posted:The government is "running the show", they're the ones who dictate how much profit Caruna and other similar companies can make. If you knew anything about this case, you'd realize that Caruna (as a natural monopoly) is already heavily regulated and the profit they can make (as a percentage of capital employed) is capped by the government. It just so happened that the government told the companies that they had to invest heavily (i.e. employ more capital), so companies raised prices to meet this percentage. Also the always benevolent government did raise the percentage in order to encourage investments. What, being a regulated industry is the equivalent of being state-owned nowadays? If the government actually ran the show they could find ways of funding the necessary infrastructure spending that didn't gently caress over the average citizen. This shouldn't be hard to grasp, but then again you're the guy who thinks that our current government has really smart ideas.
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Feb 3, 2016 21:13
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Cerebral Bore posted:Hope she makes it. She's pretty sensible, and as a bonus it will rile up the dumbshits to no end. Can't be worse than Arhinmäki.
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Feb 3, 2016 21:15
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Cerebral Bore posted:Hope she makes it. She's pretty sensible, and as a bonus it will rile up the dumbshits to no end. Caruna was owned by Fortum before, so no, the government couldn't have "found ways of funding the necessary infrastructure spending that didn't gently caress over the average citizen" because Fortum can't tax anyone either. But I assume you're probably referring to one of your communist fantasies again where even Fortum doesn't exist and the government controls the company directly. Can't help but wonder how the government would actually fund it though, I realize this is a bit pointless as I'm arguing from a position of "this is reality" and you're arguing from "in my communist utopia we could" and of course there's no point for me to address everything else that's wrong with your communist utopia. Right now the infrastructure investments are being funded by the consumers through price increases, so that's a "tax" that hits a) big consumers of electricity disproportionately highly (good for the environment) and b) industry and services much more heavily than consumers (redistributive, unavoidable tax on industry). I'm sure in Cerebral Boristan the government would be able to tax Republicans and tax havens and the company would be run super efficiently despite managers getting paid the same as janitors, so it's pointless to argue this much further... Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 21:41
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Governments are LITERALLY as bad as Hitler and if you weren't SO BLINDED by your COMMUNIST BRAINWASHING you would know to SUBMIT to our BENEvolent corporate overlords. Cast OFF your welFARE SHACKLES and join me in REALITY. Now let me tell you about our Lord and Saviour, the invisible hand of free market.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:32
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Caruna was owned by Fortum before, so no, the government couldn't have "found ways of funding the necessary infrastructure spending that didn't gently caress over the average citizen" because Fortum can't tax anyone either. But I assume you're probably referring to one of your communist fantasies again where even Fortum doesn't exist and the government controls the company directly. Can't help but wonder how the government would actually fund it though, I realize this is a bit pointless as I'm arguing from a position of "this is reality" and you're arguing from "in my communist utopia we could" and of course there's no point for me to address everything else that's wrong with your communist utopia. Right now the infrastructure investments are being funded by the consumers through price increases, so that's a "tax" that hits a) big consumers of electricity disproportionately highly (good for the environment) and b) industry and services much more heavily than consumers (redistributive, unavoidable tax on industry). I'm sure in Cerebral Boristan the government would be able to tax Republicans and tax havens and the company would be run super efficiently despite managers getting paid the same as janitors, so it's pointless to argue this much further... You're the one who started yelling about how a hypothetical valtion yhtiö would have handled the thing just as badly. Like, this is something that you brought up of your own volition, and now you're having a meltdown because somebody did address a thing that you brought up. I'd say that I admire the chutzpah, but at this point it's just sad to watch.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:40
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Cerebral Bore posted:You're the one who started yelling about how a hypothetical valtion yhtiö would have handled the thing just as badly. Like, this is something that you brought up of your own volition, and now you're having a meltdown because somebody did address a thing that you brought up. Let's see: 1) Goons start crying about electricity company raising prices, claim privatization is to blame 2) I point out it's a heavily regulated industry and the price increases were allowed by the government because investments were needed and that any operator would have increased prices 3) You come up with some retarded stuff about how if the government were running the company, they would do it a lot better by not increasing prices because omg these electricity transfer charges are hurting the poor so much 4) I point out that that's extremely detached from reality and that any increases in electricity charges actually affect the rich disproportionately (almost as disproportionately as our tax system) 5) You: omg what a meltdown, better not try to argue with any facts The whole point is that it's an almost complete non-issue that wasn't handled badly. The only decision you could question is whether the investments were necessary or not. Everything else (price increases) happened exactly the way they would have happened in almost every ownership option. You just needed another thing to cry about. Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 22:49
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I'm beginning to think Geriatric Pirate is actually Björn Wahlroos. I don't think his 2nd point about the government allowed the price hikes is necessarily true, because while they expected that, they didn't expect them to go full hard-on crony capitalist mode with tax havens and poo poo. PM Sipilä is understandably furious.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:26
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Rexroom posted:I'm beginning to think Geriatric Pirate is actually Björn Wahlroos. I'm not sure Björn Wahlroos can actually read or write.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:43
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Jerry Cotton posted:I'm not sure Björn Wahlroos can actually read or write. Then he's Björn's secretary.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:45
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Rexroom posted:I'm beginning to think Geriatric Pirate is actually Björn Wahlroos. The tax havens are completely separate from the price hikes, it's not the same issue but since Caruna started being discussed jn the news, people figures "here's something else to be outraged about! Gragrhgr". For a basic explanation of why using tax havens doesn't really matter, see the asiaton blog post I linked. Sipila probably needs to act outraged because even though the economic argument presented is really simple, most people seem to have a hard time understanding it (or just not bothering to think about it) if this thread is anything to go by.
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Feb 4, 2016 00:09
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Geriatric Pirate posted:For a basic explanation of why using tax havens doesn't really matter, see the asiaton blog post I linked. Which is naive libertarian nonsense because of what I posted, among other things. But let's not dwell on that. European Commission vice president Jyrki Katainen responds on recent Caruna criticism on Facebook: quote:Tapani Jouhi Herman Merman fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 00:48
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Herman Merman posted:Which is naive libertarian nonsense because of what I posted, among other things. But let's not dwell on that. What you posted was completely wrong though
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Feb 4, 2016 01:00
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You have to admit that the 8,5% interest (http://www.hs.fi/talous/a1454478267756) is big. This debt servicing is coming from the same coffers as investments in infrastructure, and so Fortum ownership was obviously a better deal for consumers. Indeed it would seem fairer and more efficient to finance Caruna with some kind of public or semi-public arrangement instead of maan tapa conglomerate loans. What's the benefit of the current arrangement vs. Fortum (or otherwise public) ownership?
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Feb 4, 2016 09:57
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Geriatric Pirate posted:What you posted was completely wrong though Great argument. Really convincing. Here's some food for thought on the whole Caruna thing. Basically the article points out that the pressure to push the prices to the maximum set by the Energy Bureau probably comes from foreign investors wanting to get their money in the short term rather than, say, 20 years, since they invested quite a lot for it. And of course Juha Sipilä should be mad, because this affects his voters wallets in a drastic manner. He'd be mad not to be mad. 
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Feb 4, 2016 10:07
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Rexroom posted:And of course Juha Sipilä should be mad, because this affects his voters wallets in a drastic manner. He'd be mad not to be mad.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:42
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Did the government have cash flow issues at the time? I'm really struggling to understand who benefits and how on the seller/Finland side.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:42
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I don't think suppose we've ever actually had cash flow issues. It's more like an ominous threat to keep the citizens in line.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:53
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Pussy Noise posted:Did the government have cash flow issues at the time? I'm really struggling to understand who benefits and how on the seller/Finland side. Kok benefits because their ideology requires them to sell and privatize everything they can. The Free Market granted Katainen +3 blessings for the deal.
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Feb 4, 2016 11:23
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Pussy Noise posted:Did the government have cash flow issues at the time? I'm really struggling to understand who benefits and how on the seller/Finland side. I suppose part of the problem was that Fortum was only 50%-or-so state-owned, and the minority partners' wishes must also be respected to some extent. A clean solution would be a law that clearly categorizes the electric distribution network as a strategic asset that must be state-owned, followed by the state buying out the current owners at the same price the networks were originally sold out, plus upgrades made, minus depreciation, plus a modest interest.
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Feb 4, 2016 12:32
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 Paavo "Jumalan valittu" Väyrynen leaves Kepu, starts his own party http://www.maaseuduntulevaisuus.fi/politiikka-ja-talous/paavo-v%C3%A4yrynen-perustaa-uuden-puolueen-1.137916
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Feb 4, 2016 13:21
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HerraS posted:
This man never quits. And I admire him for that. 
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Feb 4, 2016 13:36
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Respect for the unstoppable machine. He does not care of regular hurdles.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:37
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Can this man be the Trump of Finland. If he promises to build a wall to eastern border, I will vote for him.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:42
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Puistokemisti posted:Can this man be the Trump of Finland. If he promises to build a wall to eastern border, I will vote for him. This is Paavo Väyrynen we're talking about, of course he's not going to anger our "business partner."
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Feb 4, 2016 13:50
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The latest polls from Yle. SDP's rise hits a corner, while NC dives. TF's poll freefall has stopped.
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Feb 4, 2016 14:05
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Rexroom posted:The latest polls from Yle. kaikki muutokset virhemarginaalissa Puistokemisti posted:Can this man be the Trump of Finland. If he promises to build a wall to eastern border, I will vote for him. et taida olla oikein tutustunut hänen mielipiteisiinsä jos se rakentaa muurin, niin itäraja on ainoa suunta kun jää auki
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Feb 4, 2016 14:26
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Puistokemisti posted:Can this man be the Trump of Finland. If he promises to build a wall to western border, I will vote for him. FTFY
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Feb 4, 2016 14:29
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Hogge Wild posted:kaikki muutokset virhemarginaalissa Yeah, they're within the error of margin, but like in NC, it's at the very edge of that margin. That can't be good.
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Feb 4, 2016 14:43
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I'm personally more confused about how Sipilä's waffling apparently results in no real change in his party's popularity. I guess Keskusta voters can identify with clueless yokel.
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Feb 4, 2016 14:59
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Rexroom posted:The latest polls from Yle.
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Feb 4, 2016 14:59
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HerraS posted:
On one hand, lol On the other hand, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out; if Paavo manages to get enough disillusioned Keskusta voters behind his new party with blackjack and hookers it might mean an end to the monolithic Keskusta. In which case, lol
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Feb 4, 2016 15:07
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Have I mentioned that the Finnish language is best in the world for sarcastic/ironic humor? Paavo "Jumalan valittu" Väyrynen leaves Kepu << for example that doesn't sound funny in any other language that I know, but it does in Finnish. I don't know why.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:35
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OhYeah posted:Have I mentioned that the Finnish language is best in the world for sarcastic/ironic humor? I'll give you a hint: you speak Finnish natively and not any of the other ~6,900 ones
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Feb 4, 2016 15:39
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BrienneGetsHanged posted:I'll give you a hint: you speak Finnish natively and not any of the other ~6,900 ones I don't speak Finnish (almost) at all, since I lack the practice. I grew up watching Finnish TV which means I understand it well, but when it comes to speaking it I completely freeze up and can't usually remember a single word.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:55
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OhYeah posted:I don't speak Finnish (almost) at all, since I lack the practice. I grew up watching Finnish TV which means I understand it well, but when it comes to speaking it I completely freeze up and can't usually remember a single word. In those awkward pauses you can just say "nunnuka nunnuka lailaa lailaa"
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Feb 4, 2016 16:01
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OhYeah posted:I don't speak Finnish (almost) at all, since I lack the practice. I grew up watching Finnish TV which means I understand it well, but when it comes to speaking it I completely freeze up and can't usually remember a single word. so what you're saying is that you talk like a finn
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Feb 4, 2016 16:15
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OhYeah posted:Have I mentioned that the Finnish language is best in the world for sarcastic/ironic humor? I read Jumalan vittu at first. Now I am dissapointed.
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Feb 4, 2016 18:10
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That's Joensuu
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Feb 4, 2016 18:33
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So who here is going to vote for and/or suck the dick of Väyrynen again?
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Feb 4, 2016 19:12
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Darkest Auer posted:In those awkward pauses you can just say "nunnuka nunnuka lailaa lailaa" Don't appropriate Ligur's culture. The day after tomorrow is Ligur culture day after all. (I think they'll name it Sons of Odin day next year.) Have some respect!
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Feb 4, 2016 19:13
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