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rabidsquid posted:Probably because Standard attendance has cratered multiple times in the recent year or two. I don't know, maybe that's bad??? I think a lot of the problem with standard attendance has been the expense of playing standard. The difference in cost between Jeskai Black, which costs around 670 dollars to build, and Modern Affinity 915.94 is not that great. They've created a standard where in order to compete you need most of the same resources as modern and the cost difference between a standard deck and modern is at the lowest it has been since the inception of the format. If they want standard to remain popular they need to curate the format so that the price point is lower, but between the necessity of Fetches + Jace in so many of the decks in the format, there is little reason to obtain those and not step into modern.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:38
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Ciprian Maricon posted:GP's are still 2000+ people regularly, I don't think you can really call attendance "cratering" 2000+ peoople at GP's pales in comparison to standard FNM attendance across all the LGS's. I would assume WOTC cares more about those numbers than the GP's.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:40
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GP attendees are invested and require greater disincentives before they stop playing. FNM players include the only marginally invested who will drop off. GP size/growth doesn't really reflect the health of the game as a whole, just shows that us saps don't know when to quit.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:44
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Attendance also doesn't accurately represent the number of people playing because of the invisible players who just buy their product and go home and never play in an event
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Feb 4, 2016 15:48
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Ciprian Maricon posted:GP's are still 2000+ people regularly, I don't think you can really call attendance "cratering" he's talking about fnm's. It is all anecdotal but many stores are reporting they are seeing record low standard attendance.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:50
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Might be because this is an unusually expensive standard due to the mana and the Jaces.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:52
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Might be because this is an unusually expensive standard due to the mana and the Jaces. A combination of that and everyone being bored to death of Siege Rhino decks. It looks like Oath might actually be shaking things up a bit though, with eldrazi ramp maybe actually being a deck now. Entropic fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 15:53
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Might be because this is an unusually expensive standard due to the mana and the Jaces. Man this guys a regular magnum PI
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Feb 4, 2016 15:53
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Sickening posted:2000+ peoople at GP's pales in comparison to standard FNM attendance across all the LGS's. I would assume WOTC cares more about those numbers than the GP's. We don't exactly have figures to compare outside of GPs. When player engagement has dropped off significantly in the past its been notable in event attendance (like CAW Blade's reign of terror) The game isn't growing like it was, WOTC admits so, And it may even be contracting but I don't think there's any way to support the idea that attendance has "cratered" At least not in any way significant enough to start affecting WOTCs strategy and policy, it might be new for recent players but waxing and waning in popularity has been pretty common for the game. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 15:54
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anewtestleper posted:So apparently you can bet money on the pro-tour? all-in on LSV
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Feb 4, 2016 15:55
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newtestleper posted:So apparently you can bet money on the pro-tour? I think my favorite thing about this is that it's just there, jumbled in with a bunch of actual sports.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:56
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Reprinting staples for non-rotating formats in high volume is not without risks. As more and more players have access to the non-rotating format they are less motivated to buy new product. It's a problem other CCG's have encountered. Wizards doesn't want Magic to become like Yugioh where old staples are routinely printed heavily, banned, and something new and more broken is printed to maintain the demand for new product. a person who wants to get into modern, legacy, or vintage buys cards from SCG or their LGS at much higher values per card. those cards are out of print and so the LGS does not and cannot buy more packs to increase their supply. WotC gets no cut out of anyone buying into three of the five major tournament formats. that is their motivation to gently caress with their current strategy: no matter what they do, they won't be loving with standard or limited, their current sources of packs sold. they can only make more money by selling modern/legacy/vintage cards. you're right that they have to make sure not to flood the market with cheap ancestral recalls and destroy vintage or whatever, but there is a lot of daylight between that and a limited print run of legacy-legal cards.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:57
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Yeah they still have MM2 packs for sale at both my LGS
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Feb 4, 2016 16:00
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Ciprian Maricon posted:We don't exactly have figures to compare outside of GPs. When player engagement has dropped off in the past its been notable in event attendance (like CAW Blade's reign of terror) Nobody knows the real numbers except WOTC. Saying that, people do know what the LGS attendance is at the stores they go to. Standard events are definitely on a big decline in the dfw area. Facebook groups in my area talk about this fairly often and are practically begging people to come out and play. If you play modern and EDH however, you can find a game about anywhere for FNM. The problem is that its been this way for two sets now and store are feeling the pinch.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:03
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Lancelot posted:a person who wants to "get into" limited or standard buys cards from their LGS/SCG/whatever, who buys packs from WotC. more demand for standard cards = more packs sold = more profit for WotC. I'm not saying its not possible to do correctly but you're presenting a "lost market" of the extremely rare new player who skips standard entirely and just goes right to legacy or Vintage? Let's be honest that's a tiny group of people how many dollars in sales could that represent? And there's all the possible repercussions. They just aren't interested in chasing the guy who goes "gently caress it" and buys a legacy deck from SCG because for every one of them there is 1000 who go "oh well, that's a lot of money I can just start with drafting"
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Feb 4, 2016 16:14
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I'm not saying its not possible to do correctly but you're presenting a "lost market" of the extremely rare new player who skips standard entirely and just goes right to legacy or Vintage? Let's be honest that's a tiny group of people how many dollars in sales could that represent? And there's all the possible repercussions. They just aren't interested in chasing the guy who goes "gently caress it" and buys a legacy deck from SCG because for every one of them there is 1000 who go "oh well, that's a lot of money I can just start with drafting"
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Feb 4, 2016 16:16
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Sickening posted:Nobody knows the real numbers except WOTC. Saying that, people do know what the LGS attendance is at the stores they go to. Standard events are definitely on a big decline in the dfw area. Facebook groups in my area talk about this fairly often and are practically begging people to come out and play. If you play modern and EDH however, you can find a game about anywhere for FNM. The problem is that its been this way for two sets now and store are feeling the pinch. This is true for us anecdotally as well. FNM Modern firs every time, standard has less of a player base.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:17
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I would venture a guess that competitive magic is growing and casual magic isn't. That seems to be what's happening in my area. There are a ton of very well attended IQ's and PPTQ's ntm bigger events but FNM is getting smaller and smaller.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:18
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Errant Gin Monks posted:This is true for us anecdotally as well. FNM Modern firs every time, standard has less of a player base. This is what I want. I want more Modern. I can't get more modern. Or rather I want more Modern at a more convenient time for me that isn't middle of the week.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:21
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Errant Gin Monks posted:This is true for us anecdotally as well. FNM Modern firs every time, standard has less of a player base. Our modern FNM tends to be bigger than our standard FNM but both tend to fire. Usually somewhere between 25-40 for each. mcmagic posted:I would venture a guess that competitive magic is growing and casual magic isn't. That seems to be what's happening in my area. There are a ton of very well attended IQ's and PPTQ's ntm bigger events but FNM is getting smaller and smaller. This would make sense to me. One of my friends who is a kitchen table warrior has been having a harder and harder time finding casual playgroups, almost everyone is hardcore into EDH or some other format. I think a lot of the "casual" magic market has migrated into the resurgent board game market as it better meshes with their interests and predilection towards multiplayer games. Count Bleck posted:This is what I want. Where do you live? Greensboro, NC here. Every store in the area has BOTH a standard and modern FNM, and my store in particular, Lucky's Card SHop, does modern on thursdays as well for their SCG game night.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:23
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Lancelot posted:how do you think people who started playing in the last 5 or 6 years buy into modern and legacy decks? hint: it's definitely not by being gifted a surprise present of duals and shocks They all bought tons of regular standard product first and the majority continue to do so because its the most played format and WOTC isn't interested in loving that up in the interest of the super rare player who said "gently caress it" and skipped immediately into a non-rotating format.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:23
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I have no idea why people like modern so much.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:24
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Madmarker posted:Our modern FNM tends to be bigger than our standard FNM but both tend to fire. Usually somewhere between 25-40 for each. Brick, NJ. Everyone around here runs Standard FNM or Draft, with two stores running modern, Nova Games on Tuesday, and Close Encounters Games on Wednesday I don't know how the Close Encounters has been on Modern since the last couple times I've tried it's not fired, and I've never been to Nova Games because it's about an hour drive away and I am incredibly lazy. The lack of Modern is probably my fault, I know.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:30
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Madmarker posted:This would make sense to me. One of my friends who is a kitchen table warrior has been having a harder and harder time finding casual playgroups, almost everyone is hardcore into EDH or some other format. I think a lot of the "casual" magic market has migrated into the resurgent board game market as it better meshes with their interests and predilection towards multiplayer games.  mcmagic posted:I have no idea why people like modern so much. 
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Feb 4, 2016 16:32
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Madmarker posted:One of my friends who is a kitchen table warrior has been having a harder and harder time finding casual playgroups, almost everyone is hardcore into EDH
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Feb 4, 2016 16:32
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mcmagic posted:I have no idea why people like modern so much. Its an alternative to standard when standard is poo poo.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:39
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Sickening posted:Its an alternative to standard when standard is poo poo. So is limited... So is legacy.... So is EDH....
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Feb 4, 2016 16:41
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Ciprian Maricon posted:They all bought tons of regular standard product first and the majority continue to do so because its the most played format and WOTC isn't interested in loving that up in the interest of the super rare player who said "gently caress it" and skipped immediately into a non-rotating format. Several friends and I started out about a year and a half ago playing standard, but have basically stopped and gone only to modern. We are all older, and its easier to keep up with the non rotating formats. The entirety of my purchases now go to second party sources, and wizards is seeing no income from our group anymore. We missed most of the modern staples when they were in standard, so we have no way to get them that gives money to wizards. We may be outliers as new players, but I am not sure about that.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:42
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mcmagic posted:So is limited... So is legacy.... So is EDH.... I am sure people would prefer to play legacy over modern but ya know....
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Feb 4, 2016 16:45
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mcmagic posted:So is limited... So is legacy.... So is EDH.... A lot of people actively dislike limited, they don' t like the inability to be in absolute control of what their deck looks and plays like so for them, that isn't an option. Legacy has massive supply issues, making it very hard to A) get the cards to play and/or B) Find opponents to play EDH as a format is horrible for competitive gamers and is actively a bad format in general. (It is fine for hyper casual play among friends drinking, but for people who enjoy competitive gameplay, it is absolutely rancid) This leaves modern as the only real option. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 16:47
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Madmarker posted:A lot of people actively dislike limited, they don' t like the inability to be in absolute control of what their deck looks and plays like so for them, that isn't an option. All I've learned from this thread is that everyone hates every format.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:50
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Count Bleck posted:All I've learned from this thread is that everyone hates every format. This is why I pretty much only cube draft these days.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:53
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What I'm looking forward to the most when standard rotates is not seeing Jace in every deck, no matter the color combo or gameplan. Wet Junk and Jeskai Black are the worst offenders. 4 color mana bases running smoothly the vast majority of games should not be a thing, but it is. A lot of them even get to play spells on time a good portion of the time, which is just completely hosed. I love playing lots of colors, but when there is no sacrifice needed to do so in terms of tempo or consistency, it just warps the format completely. Watching the last two standard opens has been boring as poo poo because half the games came down to who stuck a Jace first.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:53
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Sickening posted:I am sure people would prefer to play legacy over modern but ya know.... Legacy isn't that super more expensive than Modern these days...
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Feb 4, 2016 16:54
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Count Bleck posted:All I've learned from this thread is that everyone hates every format. All formats are garbage except my favorite format. People who play other formats are suckers.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:54
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Cynic Jester posted:What I'm looking forward to the most when standard rotates is not seeing Jace in every deck, no matter the color combo or gameplan. Wet Junk and Jeskai Black are the worst offenders. 4 color mana bases running smoothly the vast majority of games should not be a thing, but it is. A lot of them even get to play spells on time a good portion of the time, which is just completely hosed. I love playing lots of colors, but when there is no sacrifice needed to do so in terms of tempo or consistency, it just warps the format completely. Watching the last two standard opens has been boring as poo poo because half the games came down to who stuck a Jace first. You have another year of Jace after the next rotation. Sorry heh.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:54
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mcmagic posted:Legacy isn't that super more expensive than Modern these days... That says more about the current state of Modern than it does about Legacy.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:54
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mcmagic posted:You have another year of Jace after the next rotation. Sorry heh. We have 8 more months of Jace.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:55
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mcmagic posted:Legacy isn't that super more expensive than Modern these days... As true as that is for some decks in comparison... there is still that problem of finding events or people to play with. Doesn't make sense to drop even more money for a format I would rarely get to play.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:55
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mcmagic posted:So is limited... So is legacy.... So is EDH.... Modern lets you spend money once (lol yeah right) and have a deck you can get better and better at, understand your matchups better, etc. It's a controlled environment you can (hopefully) tread water in for a lot longer than one can in draft. When you draft you leave with a pile of useless cards, unless you opened a decent money card, that you trade to the store for whatever pittance they offer you and add to your store credit to draft next week. Constructed and draft are just entirely different things, obviously, and some stores just have truly terrible limited support. Legacy, besides burn, has a buy-in of what, at least $1500, to upwards of $2500? Unless you're playing BGx you are spending about half that to play modern. And EDH is just an entirely different game that is heavily, heavily dependent on your group of friends playing magic, wanting to play EDH in the first place, and having more-or-less the same power level/price level expectations as you. Or trying to find a store that has a good EDH group (lol good luck) that somehow isn't trying to spike EDH nights with busted combo decks. EDH is the format that most relies on your playgroup agreeing on how EDH is meant to be played, so good luck. Modern is just the somewhat happy medium of everything that constructed players seem to find themselves in when keeping up with standard gets tiresome but the legacy metagame/point of entry/local support isn't conducive to playing. Modern is popular at every store near me, is hugely popular at tournaments, and gets tons of viewers on streams. For people who enjoy some (but clearly not all) aspects of constructed (knowing a deck inside and out, understanding the metagame, understanding matchups, etc), modern makes sense. The price increases also make previously invested players feel good about their investment in cards. "OK, I paid $700 for my affinity stuff 6 months ago but it's worth nearly $1000 now! Not only am I playing magic, but I'm not subject to the dumb standard price cycles!" It's reinforcing the idea that modern is a good idea for both being able to play constructed, and less financially awful than standard. Additionally, most (but obviously not all) modern players are usually pretty decent, and mostly better players than a lot of the people I played when I was more into standard. A higher level of play can be fun, as long as you don't face off against the joyless spike who makes you wonder exactly why they are playing the game in the first place.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:56
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