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Ague Proof posted:GRRM just likes to make a lot of things unnecessarily large. Like the Mountain, Westeros being the size of South America, Direwolves, Yezzan and that boar that's supposed to be twice as big as Ghost. Harrenhal's a pretty good example of this as well.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:50
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Ague Proof posted:GRRM just likes to make a lot of things unnecessarily large. Like the Mountain, Westeros being the size of South America, Direwolves, Yezzan and that boar that's supposed to be twice as big as Ghost. Or the wait between books...
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Feb 5, 2016 03:38
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counterfeitsaint posted:I find him annoying as poo poo, but in this case I actually agree with him. Gurm completely made up a bunch of numbers in the beginning because they sounded cool, and tries to avoid getting super specific since because he doesn't want people to get too distracted by travel distances and such. Things like a kingdom the size of south america and a 700 foot high wall that arrows can still reach the top of. He's said so. One thing the show did really good was add a loving giant archer who fired, essentially, a homebrew ballista at the top of the Wall.
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Feb 5, 2016 03:40
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New content couldn't come soon enough.
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Feb 5, 2016 04:20
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What are you talking about. New game of thrones content pops up in my youtube subscriptions almost every week.
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Feb 5, 2016 04:39
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emanresu tnuocca posted:GRRMs world building goto technique is basically: take something real from ye olde history times and make it bigger/more sadistic/add magic. Which works because there's a lot of poo poo from real history that people don't believe.
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Feb 5, 2016 05:46
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It's kinda cool when the writer does put a lot of effort into making sure everything fits just so, though. GRMM does this very well with plotting, but less so with any sense of rules or world details.Tolkien on the other hand was insanely spergy about his world and everything had to fit and have an extensive history and make sense. Both styles fit their respective works so I don't have a problem with how either does it.
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Feb 5, 2016 07:25
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Does a tower being a hundred feet tall or three hundred really change anything about the story? Like would it be a better series of books to you people if the geography was logical in the series with dragons and magic?
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Feb 5, 2016 07:54
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hahahhahhahaahahhaa
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Feb 5, 2016 08:31
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When characters make choices in ASOIAF their actions are believable and what influences those choices is understandable. The books are this way to such a point that we have considerable analyses on battles, events, characters, etc. Having such a grounded story in this fantastical world is unarguably part of the series appeal (and some people aren't happy about the dragons and magic either.) The show might have a considerably less ridiculous way of shooting the Night's Watch at the top of the wall but it hardly makes up for their inability to convey Martin's glorious culinary imagery.
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Feb 5, 2016 08:40
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Austrian mook posted:Does a tower being a hundred feet tall or three hundred really change anything about the story? Like would it be a better series of books to you people if the geography was logical in the series with dragons and magic? What would make it a better series of books would be if GRRM actually got onto his fat rear end and planned out and finished the two books we need to wrap things up. The most damaging thing for the series at the moment is that he seems to just be writing a single work (when he's writing) and then chopping it off like extruded pasta when his editors get sick of waiting. One of the reasons the first book was so good is that it was written as a book as well as part of the series. The later books really feel like part of a serial that has been lopped off for space, which is ok for a two-page installment in a magazine and poo poo for a 700pg novel. I imagine that Winds of Winter is going to be similarly damaged, and then Dreams of Spring will be better because it will have to wrap everything up. I don't actually care how tall towers are or how far apart things seem to be, it doesn't matter if those things are in themselves unrealistic or outsized. For instance, I don't care how big Harrenhal is supposed to be because 1) it's size is primarily used as a demonstration of Harren's hubris and the devastating power of the dragons, and 2) the place is now a ruined mess and practically speaking is not presented as being more formidable than anyy other fortification, and actually changes hands more times than practically any other fort. The fact it was big and huge isn't actually relevant beyond the historical/thematic messages. GRRM is not the first author to stumble on this - it's more common than not, really. But it does affect the reading of the book because instead of just presenting setpiece battles GRRM does actually engage some of the other aspects of warfare like maneuvering and positioning, and that in turn invites the reader to consider the choices being made. The size of Harrenhal isn't actually important because it doesn't really affect the story, but things like the distance Robb would have to go to avoid the Twins is a huge deal, so it's more irritating when that information is bad/unclear.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:01
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drat Mook you sound like you love the books Like... IN love
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Feb 5, 2016 17:04
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I agree with you that the series popularity and GRRM's lack of content is the most damning thing. There are so many insane theories out there that even if a few crazy twists are on the way they've mostly all been predicted at this point. I mean we know far too much about the book. I'd love it if Sandor Clegane coming back was a surprise, or Jon getting resurected. I think he should have just ended DWD on Jon's resurection, IMO. I mean everyone knows it's happening, and I think the hype surrounding what is gonna transpire from that is more interesting to me than all the discussion we're having now. It also would have been cool to actually have one of the big battles that were being foreshadowed all book. Stannis spends like, the entire back half of the book after winning one battle against Asha's, like 15 retainers? Lol. Then he just chills in the snow for a while and his involvement in the book is over.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:09
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Solice Kirsk posted:I'm more offended that he is potentially a Ducks fan. Who among us is perfect?
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Feb 5, 2016 17:10
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The interesting thing will be how the series is viewed decades down the line. Assume for a minute it is eventually finished, will readers on down the line find more enjoyment with (eg) Book 4 because they know how the whole Brienne saga ends up? Will Jon Snow dying and (probably) being resurrected be a great twist? You can already see this in other series. For example, I've never read the Dark Tower series (although I have book 1, never started it). I'm vaguely aware of the whole ending leading back into the beginning, but otherwise I really don't know anything about it. Would my views be different from someone that waited 20+ years for it to be finished? Most likely.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:16
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I like the books because it sets a living world with interesting characters and plots packed with surprises and twists and mysteries. I keep reading because I want to see what happen to those characters and what's behind those mysteries, not because it has superb prose or a deep meaning or anything. I guess that's why most people read fantasy literature. I didint liked the last 2 books much cause the characters and plots I cared about got stuck, going in circles or advancing at snail's pace. And at the same time, a lot of new plots and characters were introduced that I didint cared about. And then he stopped writing.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:22
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Elias_Maluco posted:I like the books because it sets a living world with interesting characters and plots packed with surprises and twists and mysteries. I keep reading because I want to see what happen to those characters and what's behind those mysteries, not because it has superb prose or a deep meaning or anything. I guess that's why most people read fantasy literature. If you want real frustration try being a fan of Berserk, The King Killer Chronicles, and ASoIaF. I'm probably never going to get an end to any of those in the original media they started out on if at all.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:29
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Ashcans posted:What would make it a better series of books would be if GRRM actually got onto his fat rear end and planned out and finished the two books we need to wrap things up. The most damaging thing for the series at the moment is that he seems to just be writing a single work (when he's writing) and then chopping it off like extruded pasta when his editors get sick of waiting. One of the reasons the first book was so good is that it was written as a book as well as part of the series. The later books really feel like part of a serial that has been lopped off for space, which is ok for a two-page installment in a magazine and poo poo for a 700pg novel. Worth noting that A Game of Thrones actually did fall victim to the "writing a single work and then chopping off the parts he couldn't get to in time" method. A Clash of Kings wasn't meant to exist when he was in the process of writing A Game of Thrones, and A Storm of Swords wasn't meant to exist while he was in the process of writing A Clash of Kings. Ever since the beginning of the series, he's been writing way more than he expected for each book and turning the excess into separate books. He just wrote faster back in the day, I guess, and perhaps didn't feel the need for as many rewrites. Even though people don't like Penny or Aegon or Darkstar, characters like Tywin, the Boltons, and the Freys also became significant because of this method of writing, as we've seen in materials from before and during the time he was writing A Game of Thrones, he originally planned on Jaime and Tyrion being the ones to kill Robb and burn Winterfell when A Game of Thrones was going to cover all the events from the beginning to the time where Robb dies, roughly. It might be over by now had he stuck to the plan of three books, but they'd be so radically different and devoid of many of the concepts, plotlines, and characters people enjoy, I wonder how well-liked they'd really be. Don't get me wrong, I have concerns about how the writing of the later books is going, myself. But it does seem to me if Martin hadn't written like a "gardener" as he calls it we'd be missing out on a lot of really memorable things.
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Feb 5, 2016 19:18
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Dany was only going to be introduced as a POV character in the second book. You were supposed to hear ominous news about a ruthless barbarian queen with dragons over the sea and the twist would be she's a conflicted teenage girl.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:42
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Ruthless barbarian queen does describe Dany pretty well though. Well, that and diarrhea.
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Feb 5, 2016 22:07
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That's actually really interesting, I didn't know that. I don't know why GRRM did so much a better job with those earlier splits than with the later ones. Possibly the arcs just had better natural endings, or possibly being earlier on in the work he/the editor was more concerned about making it work. I feel like now he is at the point where it's hard for the editor or publisher to pressure him in a way that is probably necessary. GRRM talks about being a 'gardener', but the thing is as a gardener you don't just let things grow - you take an active hand in that growth, including pruning back a plant to keep it healthier overall. Normally that is something that an editor would help accomplish and I think its something that GRRM is not good at and isn't getting pushed to do any more.
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Feb 5, 2016 22:12
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Ashcans posted:That's actually really interesting, I didn't know that. I don't know why GRRM did so much a better job with those earlier splits than with the later ones. Possibly the arcs just had better natural endings, or possibly being earlier on in the work he/the editor was more concerned about making it work. I feel like now he is at the point where it's hard for the editor or publisher to pressure him in a way that is probably necessary. I guess he should have stopped adding new characters and plotlines after book 3 (when the whole thing was already blotted enough) and focus on finishing the ones he had going Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 22:18
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Ague Proof posted:Dany was only going to be introduced as a POV character in the second book. You were supposed to hear ominous news about a ruthless barbarian queen with dragons over the sea and the twist would be she's a conflicted teenage girl. You can recapture some of the same magic by skipping all Dany chapters too. It works for the first four books at least. I maintain that Dany should never have been a POV. Jorah for AGOT-ASOS and Barristan for (all of) ADWD would have been better because you would have gotten enough glimpses of Dany's vulnerable side to humanize her but still kept her at enough arm's length to leave her motivations and evolving character in constant question (and also skipped a lot of awkward adolescent sexuality - no "their arousal was arousing").
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Feb 5, 2016 22:47
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Ashcans posted:That's actually really interesting, I didn't know that. I don't know why GRRM did so much a better job with those earlier splits than with the later ones. Possibly the arcs just had better natural endings, or possibly being earlier on in the work he/the editor was more concerned about making it work. I feel like now he is at the point where it's hard for the editor or publisher to pressure him in a way that is probably necessary. It's because the first three books were basically "Act I" (I think this is literally true, and GRRM's original "book 1" in the trilogy covered about the same amount of events). At the end of Act I, you have everyone scattered about, the old order is blown up, and change is beginning to happen. In Act II, you react to the events of Act I, you get some development of the world, and then you start to roll forward towards the conclusion. In Act III you build up again, reach that conclusion, and finish. The problem is that a lot of times Act II feels very unsatisfying on its own. It doesn't have the newness of the first Act, but it also can't wrap up the story like the third Act. It's one reason why I believe I didn't really like (for example) Empire Strikes Back all that much as a kid. The good guys are jaded at the world, the bad guys basically win at the end, but the good guys are going to come back next time. For ASOIAF, Act II is mainly about cleaning up after the War of Five Kings and setting the stage for Act III. The Lannister monopoly is shattered, basically all of the South is in disarray, and no one is really in a comfortable position (maybe Dorne and the Vale excluded). Meanwhile, The Iron Islands are raiding again, Winterfell is almost eating itself, and the Wall just conducted a mutiny, not to mention everything going on in Essos. What Act III is going to involve is the collapse of the Wall, Dany abandoning or otherwise taking her people West (maybe mirroring Nymeria), and everyone down South being crushed by foreign invaders, be they Aegon, Dany, or Ice Zombies. Then eventually the day will be saved, albeit with heavy casualties. The timing kind of varies, but Act III is probably going to be a major (probably not majority) part of Winds of Winter and then all of Dream of Spring.
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Feb 6, 2016 01:00
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In It For The Tank posted:You can recapture some of the same magic by skipping all Dany chapters too. It works for the first four books at least. It is pretty funny how Daenerys is more of a horny freak than any of the teenage boys whose POV we get. But I would argue Daenerys' motivations are still in question, she's really just as self-serving and covetous of glory/what's hers "by rights" as Stannis is in ACoK, but tons of casual fans love her and view her as one of the most implicitly good characters, including the writers of the show. Meanwhile, in the books Daenerys' whole ADwD story was about how she isn't content with peace at all, leading to her embracing her "fire and blood" conqueror heritage and desires. People clearly have very different interpretations of her. I think mine's pretty spot-on but I'm sure many would disagree with most of it.
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Feb 6, 2016 02:17
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computer parts posted:Assume for a minute it is eventually finished I only wish I had that kind of imagination.
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Feb 6, 2016 07:28
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In It For The Tank posted:You can recapture some of the same magic by skipping all Dany chapters too. It works for the first four books at least. Dany as POV kind of breaks the formula of giving POVs only to people that are around power, not the source of power themselves. Ned for Robert, Davos for Stannis, Catelyn for Robb, Tyrion for several characters, etc etc. It's a much more effective technique because you have protagonists that don't have completely control over the situation and you get to ruminate on the motivations of the powerful. For Dany you get to see her motivations and its intensely frustrating.
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Feb 9, 2016 01:43
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Well Dany didn't used to be that way, that's why I think her arc in the first book is her best. Doubly so in the show. All of season 1 Danys stuff is very good, IMO
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Feb 9, 2016 03:10
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Yeah you could say she was the POV for Drogo at the start. It wasn't until Slavers Bay that she became a power player.
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Feb 9, 2016 03:36
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Cersei and Jon also get PoV chapters where they're local top dogs, and those are excellent. Queen Dany sucks because she's a hormonal, waffly hypocrite and she's always had advisors with her best interests at heart who never had the guts to call her out.
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Feb 9, 2016 08:19
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There's definitely not enough developing the supporting cast going on for all the pages Mereen gets. Most of it was uhhhhh Dany talking about rabbits and wanting to gently caress Daario...
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Feb 9, 2016 08:32
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Barristan really should have been a POV sooner. Dany is an interesting POV character, but as the queen she doesn't really engage in much of the cloak and dagger stuff directly, so you are forced to hear about things second hand on her part, which leads to long scenes of her sitting on the throne or hanging out in her room.
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Feb 9, 2016 12:59
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Max posted:Barristan really should have been a POV sooner. Dany is an interesting POV character, but as the queen she doesn't really engage in much of the cloak and dagger stuff directly, so you are forced to hear about things second hand on her part, which leads to long scenes of her sitting on the throne or hanging out in her room. Barristan could've been a POV as early as book 1. The minute he fucks off out of Joffrey's court, you're wondering what he's up to- secondhand accounts are not sufficiently satisfying.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:03
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GRRM should just do POVs of one character for an entire timeline one at a time. I'd read the adventures of Barristan- he was there when Robert was killed by the boar, and a hundred other cool things that we only hear about in passing.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:04
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The Adventures of Belwas and Whitebeard
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Feb 9, 2016 16:06
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The adventures of Liver & Onions.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:10
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Harold Stassen posted:Barristan could've been a POV as early as book 1. The minute he fucks off out of Joffrey's court, you're wondering what he's up to- secondhand accounts are not sufficiently satisfying. I don't know, I like the way he drops off the face of the map for so long, and then when he returns Martin uses the PoV thing to his advantage so we see him through the eyes of someone who doesn't actually know who he is by anything but reputation. I also like how throughout most of the series we get a sense of him as this totally serious guy who has committed himself fully to his duty and who has shut off his human desires, but then when we finally get his PoV we see he's really mulling over his entire life and thinking about what might have been had he never become a member of the Kingsguard, to the point where he's even wistful about a woman he loved. emanresu tnuocca posted:The adventures of Liver & Onions. A book about Horas and Hobber's various escape attempts from King's Landing and their subsequent attempts at wooing a married girl. Beeez fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 16:28
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Beeez posted:I don't know, I like the way he drops off the face of the map for so long, and then when he returns Martin uses the PoV thing to his advantage so we see him through the eyes of someone who doesn't actually know who he is by anything but reputation. I also like how throughout most of the series we get a sense of him as this totally serious guy who has committed himself fully to his duty and who has shut off his human desires, but then when we finally get his PoV we see he's really mulling over his entire life and thinking about what might have been had he never become a member of the Kingsguard, to the point where he's even wistful about a woman he loved. And now we know he gets killed in the street like a dog.
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Feb 9, 2016 18:12
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Solice Kirsk posted:And now we know he gets killed in the street like a dog. nahh. GRRM is spiteful and immature. He will let him live for no reason other than because the show killed him first. My money is on Selmy crossing the narrow sea again and arriving at the last second to save Shireen from being burned alive.
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Feb 9, 2016 18:18
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Whether Barristan dies or not he's already done much more in the books than he did in the show, leading the defense of Meereen and deposing of Hizdahr (against Dany's obvious wishes) are Big Things of the kind he's never done in the show, the duel against Hizdahr's pit-fighter body guard was likewise pretty freaking awesome.
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Feb 9, 2016 18:25
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