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Homura's Revenge is basically this in manga form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQp8GWdpYug
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Jan 31, 2016 22:56
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It's rebellion tiiiiiiiime. Will me and srice...rebel against the status quo with our opinions? Or will we madoka with everyone else...read, and see...me bold srice  Alright, it's the time for the movie showcase finale, where we'll finally figure out whether or not we should have been praying for these girls all along. Srice? Should we Pray For These Girls? Homura is already a demon so I think it would be rude to pray for that particular girl. I guess I can pray for the others.  What a twist. What twists! There's nothing in particular that I want to go into first so we might as well take this chronologically like. We're back in some kind of mikihara space and everything is apparently back to normal...but different. They're fighting nightmares in a way that seems to be based around healing them instead of straight up murder. They sing songs about cake. Kyubey says Kyu and is cute. Do you think it's fair to say the entire first act of the movie takes place in this idyllic fairy tale land?  Yeah, definitely. And it's a strong first act. We the viewers immediately know that something is clearly off because it doesn't jive with how the show ended. Besides what you mentioned with the nightmares, the girls were never all buddy-buddy as an entire group like that and they would never do their magical girl business like they were Sailor Moon characters. And of course, we see a repeat of Madoka's introduction in the series, only now Kyubtey is hanging around being cute. It's definitely intended to put the viewer on edge, waiting to see just what on earth is going on. Yeah, and if you were super invested in their well being it's got to be a bit of a seductive tease to let yourself enjoy everyone being alive and happy together. It's not even a life free of worry or fear. It's just stable. It's an especially nice, and in retrospect, odd touch that Bebe takes on the form of the witch that killed Mami in the original, but here they're best friends and the thing that salved Mami's loneliness before she met the other girls. God's apparently got a sense of humor. I guess it's possible Madoka chose Nagisa to irritate Homura, or maybe it actually is that witch but, like sayaka, it has control over turning into her witch self. For a universe where witches don't exist any more, it turns out they do, madoka just personally snatches them all up before they actually turn into a witch. Maybe the next time you're rewriting the rules of the universe, you'll make a slightly better job of it, dokes! But Homura gets pissed off anyway, and slides into increasing suspicion, and thus we get the rare Homura Kyoko buddy up road trip. Say what you want about the flick in general but at least we got to see the characters play off each other in slightly more novel ways.  Those character dynamics in the first act are quite nice. My assumption is that Bebe was the actual witch, especially considering how later in the movie she's hanging out with Sayaka. But that's getting ahead of myself. I'll just say it straight up: I like the first act. The cake song is wonderfully strange and trying to puzzle out what's going on in the setting was a delight. I'm going to segue a bit into something I absolutely wanted to talk about in relation to this film. The first and to some extent the second act remind me a lot of the Urusei Yatsura movie Beautiful Dreamer. Of course being trapped in a dream is nothing new. But there are so many parallels that I refuse to believe it's a coincidence. The ways in which Homura attempts to confirm what is going on reminds me of similar scenes in Beautiful Dreamer, especially given how in both movies they are unable to leave their hometown no matter what they try.  Unfortunately unlike Beautiful Dreamer which is superb from start to finish, Rebellion starts showing some cracks as the mystery begins to unravel, and I'll just say ahead of time that when its final act rolled around I was more than ready to check out. I don't have much else to say about the first act at this point other than mentioning that Simbo's direction is as sharp as ever. As far as demonstrating what he can do without the constraints of television anime, he did a fine job. I'm looking forward to his next theatrical outing since to me, Rebellion is the appetizer and Kizumonogatari the main course. I feel the same way about the first act. It felt so bold and full of possibilities. Daring and vertigo like unbalanced. I mentioned it earlier, but I actually had to take two attempts to sit down to this film. The first time it was fairly and I made it about 25 minutes before falling asleep. When I woke up the next morning I couldn't remember what about the movie was real and what I had maybe dreamed. It wasn't incoherent but it had a wonderful dreamlike aesthetic. I honestly could have just watched a whole movie that was nothing but magical girls running around in a slightly sinister dream world.  In quite a shocking contrast to the series though, if you break the movie into its major points and look at its pacing, they're almost mirror images of each other. The madoka series moves extremely fast for three quarters of the movie and then goes into a relatively drawn out finale. I guess that's just the nature of mysteries though, because here you could probably sum of 2/3rds of the movie in a single sentence: Homura is trapped in a dream world and seeks to learn why and who is responsible. Not that that's not necessarily a mark against it, but when things start to actually move, it's...a bit of a mess. But since I'm a sucker for stylistic action scenes I want to first take a moment and give some props to the Mami / Homura fight. These people seem destined to hate each other in any universe they meet in. But what explosive combat! Both of the girls' powers felt wonderfully realized in an all out bid to try to shoot the poo poo out of each other, with mami's ribbons and all the bullets spiraling out like a quantum universe display of every single possible action laid out visually throughout the fight, leading to a pretty fantastic climax.   And one thing I want to applaud the show for is that I was genuinely unsure how it would turn out, and I really, sincerely appreciated how dangerous the game they were playing felt. That's a great feat of directing to make me give a poo poo about an action scene's results, really. I also felt pretty bad for Bebe, it's so dang cute. even if I thought it was a freaking monster i'm not sure i could strangle it. Maybe just tie a bag around its neck and toss it in the river, like a humane person would do.  It's a brilliant setup too. Even from the beginning the viewer suspects Bebe and when you see that she looks like the witch that ate Mami it just makes the viewer wonder when the shoe will drop. During the leadup to that fight I kept wondering what Bebe would do to get out of that mess and I was not expecting that Bebe was telling the truth the entire time. The fight itself was a joy to watch. Being able to slow down or completely stop time can lead to some very exciting battles and I'm glad this one didn't disappoint. It's much more hectic and focused when two girls are duking it out instead of facing abstract monsters.  It's a mysteriously defining point for Homura as well, where she's willing to shoot her friend, but not necessarily in the head, going for the leg instead, in a super cringeful execution shot. But it doesn't quite work out that way. Maybe because it was a half measure. And so, after puzzling it out a bit more, and in what was also a wonderfully realized sequence, Homura gets on the bus and leaves her soul gem behind, a grim throwback to the arguable real point of no return of the original series. I wanted to mention real quick that it's a great touch that the bus announces specifically that passengers heading to the middle school should depart here, whenever it drops them off. A charming little nod to the entire universe seemingly being built for them. Hell starts to rain down, stop requested, boom. SORRY HOMURA THERE'S NO GETTING OFF THIS RIDE. Because we have to jump head first straight to the....IN CU BEY TAR. Gosh darn it these fuzzy little guys are at it again! Welcome to Act 2: So you think you can exposition?  Oh boy. I'll preface this by talking about Beautiful Dreamer again. It's weird to say that I think a movie of the anime that might be what launched a lot of harem anime has better writing than this, but when Mamoru Oshii is behind the wheel I think it's not a terribly controversial assertion. In Beautiful Dreamer, when the jig is up the exposition is short and to the point. And what eventually follows is a chase through dreams upon dreams upon dreams, the protagonist constantly waking up and never being sure if he's finally out of the dream world. It's a sequence of events that can bounce between being hilarious, poignant, and/or philosophical in the blink of an eye and yet it feels completely natural because that's just how Oshii rolls. Because that movie was on my mind, it's impossible for me to not be disappointed with what we get here. I don't like that they made Kyubey the villain behind the dream world. It's a much more active role than he had in the series. It makes logical sense for him to set that trap but at the same time it feels like it goes against the conclusion of the tv series. But more importantly, his repeat performance is just a disappointment. Some of the best villains are treated as such because they don't overstay their welcome. I don't feel like his role in this movie adds much of value. It just feels like they were giving the fans what they wanted.  And ultimately, the most egregious part of them all is: holy moley that is a lot of exposition dumping. I'll admit that despite my love for Simbo's artistic direction I found it hard to stay focused. It took me several sessions to finish this movie and that scene was quite a rough time. It's nearly 10 minutes of Kyubey explaining the plot, and it overstays its welcome after a few minutes. And the real kicker is, that's a lot of time to explain something quite simple. Kyubey has an inkling that Madoka as a concept exists thanks to Homura mentioning witches at the end of the tv series. So he sets a trap using Homura in order to prove that Madoka exists and hopefully capture her in order to gather energy more efficiently. I know I have said something like this in our prior discussions but Urobuchi comes across to me like someone who is worried about viewers nitpicking his writing, so he winds up using way more exposition than is needed. The end of Act 2 in which everyone comes to Witch-Homura's aid is fine. It looks nice, and while it's not as exciting as Mami fighting Homura it does its job. But at that point I was starting to check out.  Yeah, I'm positive I've mentioned this before, but in the heightened medium of fiction, what is consistent doesn't necessarily mean it's what feels True, or that it's narratively satisfying. I think what bugs you and I about Kyubey's return here is, like you said, it feels like we already solved this problem. I already wasn't thrilled with the idea of Kyubey as the architect of the girls’ suffering. But fine, Madoka goes through all the trouble of rewriting the laws of the entire universe to create a system where they're at least able to function without putting small girls through as much existential misery. Except for when they get the idea to do the exact same thing they were doing in the first movie, and that drives the entire plot of 2/3rds of the movie and the over exposition you mentioned. And you know what? For all that exposition? It's STILL not the entire point of the movie. You could say they're not even the real antagonist. All that time wasted revisiting a plot point that wasn't really necessary to begin with, and has little bearing on the work as a whole.   The climactic fight at the end was fine, plenty of striking imagery, and an interesting vision of what witch on witch combat would look like. and even some skinship for the fans awww hyeahhhh. What I didn't like: the entire scene is also exposition as Sayaka and Nagisa explain why they're there, in what is the most mysteriously nonsensical way considering Madoka is supposed to be an omniscient conscience, but can pluck whatever she wants from the aether and materialize and fly by a chariot. Urobuchi can't quite seem to decide if Madokami is Zeus of YHVH, but the two styles of deity don’t really mix well. And ordinarily I try not to get too bogged down in plot details, but since the entire movie is about Homura's choices, a little inspection is almost certainly in order. I guess the big question I have is, did Homura engineer this entire fiasco with the incubators specifically to capture Madoka at the end like she did? Homura's plan reminds me a lot of the part in Death Note where Light gives himself amnesia on purpose in order to execute a convoluted plan. I don't think Homura would work together with Kyubey but I would be willing to believe that she would share stories of witches in order to coax Kyubey into plotting something. Not to mention that Kyubey would definitely be open if their partnership was agreed upon.  Regardless that plan is quite complicated and once that begins, well. I'm not gonna be lame and say that the last act doesn't exist. You gotta acknowledge the good with the bad. That said: Man, I *wish* that last act didn't exist. One of the strengths of the series is that it was able to end in a very conclusive manner. Something that quite frankly is a luxury in anime these days. They had the courage to make Homura do something incredibly wicked for completely selfish reasons. But they didn't have the will to give us a conclusion. They might as well have said "Stay tuned for season 2, folks!" at the end there. Regardless of how Death Note-y her plans were, I had no issues believing that it was a natural evolution of her character. She was driven by obsession in the tv series and the aftermath only served to amplify that obsession. I just don't like that it was used all for the sake of a sequel hook.  You're saying that her imprisonment was necessary to draw madoka out like that, either because she arrived weakened or was it something about her incubation as a witch gave her enough power to separate Madokes from the sky? Or was she going to do that anyway and then the incubators interrupted her? Like you said I'm also reminded of the Light arc from death note...but if you recall Light actually WAS a good guy when he had amnesia...similar to how Homura acts in fake town. Was her cruel turn just an extension of who she was when she was in the labyrinth, or did she revert to her true evil self once she had escaped it? I think it was a bit of both, she ran out of power and was gonna turn into a witch BUT she might have done that on purpose (remember how in the post madoka god world she appears to all magical girls who are about to turn into witches so they can be cleansed before they die). Her attitude in the fake town reminded me of how she was before going through a billion time loops hosed up her mind Yeah, even tho the end of the first series make you THINK she'd at least made peace with that. But hell, I can still see her succumbing to despair eventually. I guess part of it just irritates me because it's hard to follow the arc of her character...would the Homura of the labyrinth really do that to Madoka? It feels to me like she wouldn't. Even if you take into account that you can read the optimistic ending to the witch fight in two ways. But that Homura at least shows emotions. Post release Homura genuinely seems dead inside, which is funny because her powers are based on her emotions.  That said, it's time for the symbolism intermission. MAN THAT NUTCRACKER IMAGERY. REALLY LINES UP YOU KNOW? FREAKING PINK SPOOLS OF THREAD, NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. HER GEM LOOKS LIKE A CHESS PIECE. THANK GOD I'VE WASTED MY LIFE PLAYING PERSONA.  The nutcracker has been pontificated on enough in the thread, the chess imagery is simple enough. Did you have any thoughts on the spool of thread? It's pink! So, Madoka. It's inert, so it's not like...the person Madoka. Especially since they both appear in the same universe inside the labyrinth. You're killing me.  To be a little more serious I prefer to focus on how the visuals accentuate its themes. Which is something I would notice more on a rewatch I'm sure. But that does remind me of one nice visual touch I forgot to mention: The transformation montage in the first act did a fantastic job at reflecting aspects of the cast. It was something I watched again since Madoka's is last and the most obvious about it; seeing an increasing number of Madokas reminds you of how her fate came to be in the series.  You can tell the animators really had a blast going for a full on magical girls transformation, especially in a universe where it's not even dissonant to have that kind of flair. Ah, those act 1 feels. Well symbolism or not, Homura grabs Madokes, and either dominates or absorbs a facet of her power, and then re-re-writes the world. Like you I'd have been fine with it ending there. The..epilogue, I guess you'd call it, feels a little awkward to say the least. What I'm most disappointed in is it's not exactly a world I'm interested in exploring either, unless they turn the premise upside down in the first couple of episodes. As it stands it's, weirdly enough, set itself up to be the conventional magical girl show it started out subverting in the first place, with monsters of the week and an evil witch/demon behind it all. Feels like something out of a forgotten sailor moon arc. Hell maybe it *was* a sailor moon arc I haven't seen them all! The recreation of their first meeting is pretty good too, I have to give it that. Really conveys Homura has long since stopped thinking of Madoka as a person and friend to love, but rather an object to be had, and she's clearly found no happiness at the end of her struggle. But the whole thing was definitely pretty watchable, and I may even see it again at some point in the undisclosed future just to enjoy the bits I liked and see if the final act doesn't seem as hectic and exposition laden as it does now. A rating, described in terms of how much I'd pray for these girls... I guess it's gotta be three hail marys out of an our father.  You definitely liked it more than I did. I think I constantly had the albatross of Beautiful Dreamer hanging around my neck. With too many similarities to be a coincidence it was hard for me not to think of it. And even decent movies can be rough when they constantly make you think of better films. But despite that I still really like that strong first act. I figure that if expectations are set accordingly I'm fine with recommending it to people who watched and liked the series. I don't regret watching it but I do wish it was a more pleasant experience. It took me three sessions to finish the movie; I would have finished the compilation movies in single sessions if real life didn't interfere. So with rumblings of a potential Madoka announcement possibly maybe, would you watch a new series? And while we're on that subject, how about checking out any spin off material? I already know what I'll say about that of course but I'll let you go first. To be fair, my expectations were firmly managed by the fact that you said it took you three tries and usually we're of the same opinion on these things. So while I was a bit unhappy with some of the developments, I was also spared the bitter draught of disappointment. And while it's hard to quantify exactly how much that can improve a viewing experience, I think it's fair to say it improves it at least a little! On the next points, unless I hear anything from a lot of people I'll never be checking out any Madokes side material. The universe per se really doesn't appeal to me that much, so it's not like I'm starving for more sinister magic girl material. But I'd probably check out the new series yeah, but only assuming Simbo was still directing. If it was helmed by someone else, well. I'd wait and see... Yeah I'm of the same mind when it comes to both side material and new material. I wouldn't mind seeing another writer take a crack at it as long as Simbo was still directing, but if it was somehow the reverse? I'd stay the hell away. Thankfully Shaft and Simbo might as well be joined at the hip so outside of extraordinary circumstances, Simbo will be directing whatever new entry they make (And between the sequel hook and the hella cash the franchise rakes in, I'm sure that it's more a question of when than if). I don't think I have anything more to add at this point. That was Rebellion. I was disappointed, but at the same time I don't regret the time I spent watching it   Same. If there's anything I'm kinda surprised by it's the lack of great feeling I have for it one way or another. For a film so infamously love it or hate it, my feelings could be most accurately summed as: 'was aight’. In the broader sense I am definitely more happy than not that I saw all three movies, they gave us a lot to chew on and whatever issues we may have with the writing the execution stayed pretty drat great from start to end, on every front. And that's how I choose to live my life: no regrets. Thanks Srice! Thanks whoever is reading!! It was a lot of words but it was fun, too
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Feb 1, 2016 01:52
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Movie 3 is only good if they do more real stuff, otherwise it's a cock tease for poor Lord justice. Side material: mostly adds nothing, the another story manga is alright if you're particularly invested in mami or kyouko. The rest is varying levels of quality of "what ifs"
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Feb 1, 2016 04:19
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Good read. I enjoyed Rebellion mostly as something interesting to look at and it accomplished that well enough, but I was never too enthralled by Madoka to begin with. I liked it well enough but it didn't really feel very world-shattering to me ever.
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Feb 1, 2016 04:40
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Torquemadras posted:Oh hey, just noticed that she literally stabs her heart there. Haha oh Sakaya you're nuts hahaha Yeah, that whole sequence is essentially a transformation sequence, wherein Sayaka and Nagisa transform into "Magical Women", through a cycle of death and rebirth. Sayaka stabs herself through the heart, symbolizing the end result of her wish, and uses it to pull up Oktavia, but this time Sayaka is in control and the two of them are working together as one. We see something similar with Nagisa's transformation as well:  I suppose the assumption is that Bebe being blended is the signifier of Nagisa's wish to have cheesecake with her dying grandmother. What's interesting is that Nagisa and Sayaka's transformations are reversed from each other, Nagisa's has her witch form being "killed" and the result is her Magical Girl form, while Sayaka's has the Magical Girl being "killed" to summon the witch. Torquemadras posted:I guess I gotta read The Different Story at some point, since it seems to be some of the only (?) side material for Madoka that actually reaches the main series' level of quality (???). The three worth checking out on quality alone are: The Different Story is at basically the series level of quality, and expands quite a bit on Mami and Kyouko. Homura's Revenge! Is a very interesting remix of the series, with different results arising from Homura interrupting Madoka's wish at the end of episode 12 and taking her back in time. It does change things around quite a bit and isn't a retread of the series too much, although the ending is really depressing if you think about it. Suzune Magica is an original manga which has nothing to do with the main cast, and is the best of the four which fall under that umbrella (the others being Kazumi Magica, Oriko Magica, and Tart Magica). Suzune is a very interesting character, and is a direct challenge to Madoka's idealism in how she functions, which I've been enjoying quite a bit. As well, it plays with the concept of wishes in an interesting way, and subverts your expectations at times. It also captures the feeling of Madoka very well, and it feels like an actual extension of what makes Madoka good into an original manga. Tart Magica is a manga looking at Joan of Arc as a Magical Girl, but is overall kind of bland and fairly safe so far, narrative wise. They put a lot of effort into the historical research for it, but it doesn't seem to help that much. It's not bad or anything, just not anything special either. esselfortium posted:Well, if I remember right Hitomi has a line in the concept movie that seems to imply she's finding out some things. "You should be discreet. If the existence of magic isn't kept secret, it could disappear." Going off the translation from the wiki, and considering the line comes right after Sayaka saying she can read the runes, it may play into Hitomi telling Sayaka to not attempt to speak the truth. Mordaedil posted:Homura's Revenge is basically this in manga form: While that MAD is excellent, it doesn't have too much to do with Homura's Revenge!. Homura has the same idea as there, but Homura's Revenge! plays out completely differently. Namtab posted:Movie 3 is only good if they do more real stuff, otherwise it's a cock tease for poor Lord justice. They are making a new project, what do you think I've been analyzing for the past month? Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 05:11
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I'll believe it when they announce a release date.
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Feb 1, 2016 05:30
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Well, the Madogatari show event will be running from the 9th to the 14th of Feburary. No idea about the movie, since it is blocked on YouTube in my country.Lord Justice posted:While that MAD is excellent, it doesn't have too much to do with Homura's Revenge!. Homura has the same idea as there, but Homura's Revenge! plays out completely differently. Yeah, but the entire time reading Homura's Revenge, that MAD played in the back of my head and I felt like it made reading it thoroughly more enjoyable. I think maybe lacking that context makes it maybe a tad weaker of a novel?
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Feb 1, 2016 08:28
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Oh wow, those gifs are really, really pretty. I think I'll finally watch the rebellion.
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Feb 1, 2016 09:30
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Mordaedil posted:Well, the Madogatari show event will be running from the 9th to the 14th of Feburary. No idea about the movie, since it is blocked on YouTube in my country. Honestly, all I want from them at this point is putting out a clean version of the Concept Movie on the internet. Having to use this terrible phone recording for pictures and gifs is the worst. I can see your point with Homura's Revenge!, although I feel it stands just fine on its own and that MAD didn't even come to my mind when I read it really.
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Feb 1, 2016 10:54
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Namtab posted:Movie 3 is only good if they do more real stuff, otherwise it's a cock tease for poor Lord justice. Pretty much sounds like what I'd expect from manga side material in general. Legacyspy posted:Oh wow, those gifs are really, really pretty. I think I'll finally watch the rebellion. If nothing else it does a fine job delivering on the visual side of things.
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Feb 1, 2016 11:31
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Srice posted:Pretty much sounds like what I'd expect from manga side material in general. One of them covers the life and trials of Jean D'arc, though it isn't quite as good as I imagined it'd be.
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Feb 1, 2016 11:40
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I would argue that the side material can and has added some interesting ideas and narrative to Madoka. Homura's Revenge! creates an interesting interplay between a Madoka who's much more aware of what Homura is doing and Homura herself, and there's a specific moment in the first volume where that really comes to the fore. In Suzune Magica, it directly challenges whether Madoka's belief in Magical Girls is correct, and makes an good argument against it. Madoka the main series really hasn't addressed this yet. Edit: I feel part of the problem is that Oriko Magica and especially Kazumi Magica were just really terrible examples of Madoka manga and people (including myself at one point) just assume that all Madoka manga is at the quality of those two. After reading the manga released lately, those two have become increasing outliers and the quality has improved by a fairly large amount. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 11:49
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Mordaedil posted:One of them covers the life and trials of Jean D'arc, though it isn't quite as good as I imagined it'd be. While I wouldn't say that I would never check out something like that it's a good example that kinda encapsulates my feelings on such things. I guess the easiest comparison to make would be, that sort of thing just comes across to me like something comparable to Star Wars Expanded Universe stuff. Here's a thing mentioned in passing in the show, let's make a whole spinoff about it. Not making any quality judgments but that aspect just makes me way less interested in checking that stuff out.
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Feb 1, 2016 12:14
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Srice posted:While I wouldn't say that I would never check out something like that it's a good example that kinda encapsulates my feelings on such things. That's what I am doing this for, so I can tell people what I think is good and what to avoid. Most of it is really average and then we have Puella Magi Kazumi Magica which was just straight up terrible. (it was in production before the anime finished, to be fair, but the result was very unlike Madoka at all)
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Feb 1, 2016 12:24
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Let's all have a round of applause for Incubators finally knowing what emotions are like.
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Feb 1, 2016 13:59
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Okay so I read The Different Story and uuuuuhhh It's good Seriously, as far as I'm concerned, it's totally canon. And the best thing is, it could be. None of the characters felt off, it's really doing a lot for Mami who (obviously) had a rather short-lived presence in the show, and it's cool overall. I kept thinking how this manga could almost work all on its own - if it weren't jumping too much between scenes familiar to show watchers, it would be a pretty great introduction by itself that hits many of the same story beats I loved about the main series. Also bonus points for one hell of a heartbreaking, yet strangely hopeful ending. Mami tearfully admitting to Madoka she doesn't want to fight anymore, then committing suicide - harsh! Yet very appropriate, from what we learn about her. It's weird how Kyoko ends up as one of the sanest members of the main cast.  Plus it has lots of scenes of Kyubey being a colossal inhuman jerk, which I'm obviously a big fan of
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Feb 2, 2016 23:01
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Torquemadras posted:Okay so I read The Different Story and uuuuuhhh Told ya. It's excellent stuff and does a great job of exploring Mami without changing her character like what newer stuff is leaning toward.
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Feb 2, 2016 23:12
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Wednesday again, this time with an on-schedule post. This week, I'll be going into Homura's existence in the Concept Movie with... Homura and the Lizard Girl “Now do you remember? Who you are? What you were meant to do? I am Homura, and you are too.” Introduction Within the Concept Movie, I find that there is a distinct sense of unease within it, that there is something wrong with the proceedings and that, much like Madoka’s first three episodes and Rebellion’s first act, there is some greater truth hidden among a falsehood. Within the series, there is the concept of Magical Girls, which do not exist as Madoka initially perceives them to be, but a different force altogether. That they are not bringers of hope, and that their existence is inherently destructive to those who engage in the system. With Rebellion, there is the idea of the perfect world, which we later find is nothing but a dream, Homura’s attempt to closet herself away from the world and the reality it presents. While I still do not know exactly where the Concept Movie’s falsehood is headed, I am fairly certain what we are seeing is not what truly is. Namely, Homura’s existence within the Concept Movie does not seem to flow properly from Rebellion. As such, the principle question I ask here is, where is Demon Homura? In the spirit of attempting to figure out what is going on here, I will present a series of evidence that leads to my hypothesis based on this data: Demon Homura is not present here, and we are seeing a second “Magical Girl” Homura separate from Demon Homura. Given the length of the evidence and analysis here, I have separated this “showcase” as it were into two parts. The first part will focus on the “meta-narrative” context of the evidence, while the second part next week will go into the evidence surrounding the context of the “production” within the Concept Movie, as well as some counter-evidence to my hypothesis. Part 1: Meta-Narrative Continuity The first bit of evidence we have for Demon Homura’s absence from the movie is the strange focus on Homura’s Soul Gem. We see it two times in the film: First is it swaying back and forth on a black background:  Second, it is on Homura’s hand as she applauds Madoka’s performance (although the form of it is different from the original):  In Rebellion however, her Soul Gem was destroyed and remade into her Dark Orb:     For her Dark Orb to be straight up missing here is very strange, especially since Rebellion went to such lengths to destroy and reform her Soul Gem. If this was Demon Homura we are seeing, she should be wearing her Dark Orb. As well, the increased focus on the Soul Gem itself is strange, as if there was more importance to it than just Homura wearing it again. This strange continuity “error” then leads me to believe that we are seeing a specific “Magical Girl” Homura that exists separately from Demon Homura. Another point to consider is that this Homura we are seeing is wearing her Magical Girl outfit, complete with buckler, instead of her Demon outfit:  Continuing with what she wears as a Demon, her earring:  which, In the Concept Movie, we can see that the Homura clapping after Madoka’s performance is not wearing it:  This “Magical Girl” Homura then seems to be supported somewhat by her outfit and lack of earring. Demon Homura has a new outfit now along with a specific look with her earring, and has moved on from being a Magical Girl; yet in the Concept Movie, we see her wearing her old outfit again. However, this evidence is based more upon a meta reading of the text, as there shouldn’t be anything stopping Demon Homura from recreating her original outfit or taking her earring off. Essentially, it is strange in meta-narrative terms that Homura would be reverted like this, given the lengths Rebellion went to in order to show how she’s changed from a Magical Girl to a Demon. Before moving on to the next bit of evidence, I would like to address one counter-argument here. Within the Concept Movie, Homura wearing her Magical Girl outfit is similar to Madoka wearing hers in Rebellion. However, I feel a key difference here is that Madoka in Rebellion is meant to be reverted and shown in an ideal state, not the Goddess Madoka but the Magical Girl Madoka who exists in the world with Homura. In Rebellion, Madoka has no knowledge of her existence as the Goddess within the dream, and the larger point with Madoka is that she is asleep and unaware. Within the Concept Movie this is not the case with Homura, she is awake and in control, or she should be. I will explore why I believe this is next week, as it requires going into two “discontinuities” with the hypothesis I’ve formulated here. Finally, the story Homura and Madoka tell of the genesis of Demon Homura and the Labyrinth: Homura: “A lizard girl took pity on God…” Madoka: “…so the lizard girl tore God in two, and kidnapped one of her halves to Earth from Heaven.” This story rather heavily suggests that the Concept Movie takes place in Homura’s Labyrinth, as it is relating the creation of it to us. However, the real importance here is the reference to the “Lizard Girl”, which is derived from the imagery of Homura’s lizard. A certain property of lizards is relevant here; in that, periodically in their lives, they shed their skin and replace it. In Rebellion, we see something similar with Homura, first as she appears in her Magical Girl outfit:  And as she says “It’s love!”, the catalyst for her transformation, we see an image of her lizard:  Which is located in her Dark Orb and looks to have grown wings, which feeds into her actual transformation into Demon Homura:  In essence, Homura has cast off the “skin” that was her original Magical Girl self, and replaced it with her Demon form. This again ties into the larger meta-narrative context of Rebellion, because if Homura has shed herself of her Magical Girl self, why is she appearing as she is now? Going a bit further with the metaphor, it could be possible that this shed part of Homura still exists, and is the foundation for this second Homura we are seeing now. Thus we have “Homura”, who exists in a past state which the “Lizard Girl” shed and removed in Rebellion. The idea then is that in some fashion, the part which Homura removed is still usable, and we are seeing its use now. All of this then serves as the basis for my hypothesis: In that, within a meta-narrative context, the Homura in the Concept Movie does not exist properly as the Demon Homura we know from the end of Rebellion. Continuing with this line of thought, next week I'll finish my evidence showcase with how this "Magical Girl" Homura relates to the idea of the production, as well as the involvement of Mami in the Concept Movie. However, there is also some "discontinuity" with this hypothesis in the Concept Movie, which I'll be going into with Homura and the Lizard Girl Part 2: Production Discontinuity.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:54
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Lord Justice posted:As such, the principle question I ask here is, where is Demon Homura? Hi
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Feb 4, 2016 09:34
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Clever posting by Namtab.
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Feb 4, 2016 11:36
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Now it all makes sense. I should probably start reading these effort posts sometime, you're putting a lot of effort forth here.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:10
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Mordaedil posted:Clever posting by Namtab. Ice burn by the guy with the weird hateboner for namtab
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Feb 4, 2016 18:41
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So every now and again people post about the madoka mangs. There's a lot of them, are they good? Which ones are good? Are they true to the series? Here's an overview: Puella Magi Madoka Magica (madoka:the show: the manga): it's the manga of the original tv series. It was created when the show was still in storyboard stage so there are some mild differences between it and the show in the end stages. Being a retelling of the show there's no new elements introduced. Overall it's solid enough but not an essential addition to your madoka collection. Puella Magi Kazumi Magica (the one without any madoka characters): The Innocent Malice: I'd describe this as the most far removed from the original story that the mangas get. There's some interesting ideas going on and the story doesn't rely on the same beats as a story more focused on the original characters has to be. Downside is that it does feel a bit fanfictiony. Puella Magi Oriko Magica (the one with the magic girl fights): Magical girl sees the future, launches convoluted plot to kill madoka. Quite grim as I recall. Set during an "earlier loop" of the main story but due to the new characters and their motivations it feels quite unrelated. Would I recommend it? Nah Puella Magi Madoka Magica: The Different Story (the one that could be canon): if you buy any madoka manga, get this one. Explores the characters of mami and kyoko, their backstroke and motivations. As mami wasn't particularly developed in the show this is especially good for her as she is provided with nuance and insecurities that work quite well with her established character. Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Homura's Revenge! (The one where madoka is self aware): At the end of yet another loop homura goes back in time, only this time madoka and qb are along for the ride. It's interesting to see how things change and the plans that can be put in place when madoka can have more agency over her own fate. The downside is that to ensure that nothing changes QB is forced into an out of character role in which he is more directly evil. Overall it's ok. Puella Magi Oriko Magica: Extra Story: I've not read it, but looking at Wikipedia this is the one Wikipedia this is bonus stories featuring the new characters you loved in oriko magical, and their grim and dark lives. Puella Magi Homura Tamura: not read it, probably a comedy. Puella Magi Madoka Magica the Movie: Rebellion: not read it, sounds like a straight adaption of the third movie for those dark times you can't rererererererererewatch it. Puella Magi Suzune Magica: not read it, sound even more stupidly grimdark than oriko. Puella Magi Tart Magica: The Legend of Jeanne d'Arc: If I had to pick a word for this it would be "safe". It's the story of Joan of arc but she's a magical girl. The English are the enemy, there's also witches, ultimately Joan will become a witch and be killed with magical fire. Safe. Puella Magi Oriko Magica: Sadness Prayer: guess who's back? Not read it, this reportedly expands the original oriko magical, but why? Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Wraith Arc: not read it but my friend Lord justice has high hopes that this will prove all his theories....the missing link.....
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Feb 4, 2016 19:51
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Mami and Kyoko are great at the backstroke but need to practice their butterfly strokes IMO
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Feb 4, 2016 22:37
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Namtab posted:Manga  Ok then. Here’s my overview of the manga not listed in the OP (Endorph, feel free to copy paste this into the OP if you want):  Puella Magi Tart Magica Summary: A spinoff manga focusing on the journey of Joan of Arc as a Magical Girl during the Hundred Years’ War between England and France. Review: Tart Magica is a fairly decent manga, not terrible, but it doesn’t measure up to the usual quality of Madoka in general. Joan, or Tart as she’s usually called (hence the name of the manga), is a very Madoka-like character, very idealistic and wanting to change things in France for the better. Her primary companion is Riz, a Magical Girl who looks almost identical to Homura and is essentially Tart’s protector. I’m sensing a theme here. Regardless, there’s clearly a lot of effort here, especially in the historical research (there’s several pages of historical info in each volume of the manga) but in terms of narrative it’s pretty safe and hasn’t really done anything interesting yet. Recommendation: If you want more Madoka in terms of the setting, but otherwise it’s probably not worth the time. Amazon Links: Volume 1 Volume 2 Volume 3  Puella Magi Oriko Magica: Extra Story Summary: A series of spinoff stories based on the original characters of Oriko Magica. Review: While Oriko Magica wasn’t very good, Extra Story is surprisingly decent. It takes the characters of Oriko Magica, especially Yuma, and does some interesting things with them, giving them more development and making them into decent characters. It’s not the best or anything, and the time for characterization is still a bit short considering the format, but I was pleasantly surprised after expecting something terrible. Recommendation: If you’ve read Oriko Magica, then it’s worth a look to see how the characters could be handled better. Otherwise, don’t bother. Amazon Link: Extra Story  Puella Magi Oriko Magica: Sadness Prayer Summary: This manga is currently unreleased in English, but currently has two volumes released in Japan. Apparently, it is a prequel to Oriko Magica, but beyond that I know nothing about it.  Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Homura’s Revenge! Summary: Homura interrupts Madoka’s wish at the end of the series, and takes Madoka back in time with her for another loop. Review: This is one of the better manga released for Madoka. While it is non-canon, the idea it uses is well realized in the manga, especially in how it affects the events of the series and changes things around. It was particularly interesting to see the relationship between Homura and a Madoka who knew what was going on, and it lead to some good moments between the two. With that said though, the ending is quite depressing if you think about it a certain way. Recommendation: Well worth a read if you like Madoka and want to see the characters in a different, yet familiar, scenario. Amazon Links: Volume 1 Volume 2  Puella Magi Homura Tamura: ~Parallel Worlds Do Not Remain Parallel Forever~ Summary: Homura ends up in increasingly strange time loops where the characters act in very odd ways. Review: This a comedy manga, focused mainly on Homura getting into increasingly bizarre situations involving the other Madoka characters. Each chapter is framed as a new loop where Homura has to deal with some new and extremely strange problem, like Mami becoming queen of the world and making everyone drink tea and adopt her hair style, or trying to replace her defective buckler. Overall the comedy is fairly weak and too reliant on simplistic caricatures of the characters. However, there is one time loop where Homura visits a bar with a bunch of other versions of herself (including an adult version) which was fairly interesting. Recommendation: If you really like Homura’s character and want to see a somewhat comedic expansion of her having to deal with the usual stuff from the other characters. Otherwise, avoid it. Amazon Links: Volume 1 Volume 2  Puella Magi Suzune Magica Summary: A spinoff manga on a Magical Girl assassin who kills other Magical Girls. Review: While the spin-off material for Madoka material has been either utter garbage to just kind of decent, Suzune Magica bucks this trend and is legitimately good, being the best of the four spinoff Madoka mangas released so far. The most important part of Suzune Magica is that it captures the feeling of Madoka very well, and while it isn’t up to the quality of the original anime series, it still gets what made Madoka good. With that said, it isn’t just a retread of what the series did, as Suzune herself is a direct opposite and challenge to Madoka herself, and the other characters expand on how Magical Girls can really work in practice. Let's just say that not all wishes are made for good reasons or for good purposes. Recommendation: The best of the spinoff manga so far, and well worth reading if you want a good manga utilizing Madoka’s concepts. Amazon Links: Volume 1 Volume 2 Volume 3  Puella Magi Madoka Magica The Movie: The Rebellion Story Manga Summary: An adaptation of The Rebellion Story into manga form. Review: Overall, I found I was a bit disappointed with this adaptation. It’s not bad or anything (aside from some translation issues, they completely botched the translation for Mada dame yo), it’s just it makes it clear that Rebellion can only really exist properly as a movie. With that said, the artwork is well done, and there’s some specific scenes in the second volume which I felt were particularly well drawn and creative. In the end, it’s all right, it adapts Rebellion decently enough, and my expectations were always going to be too high for it. Recommendation: If you liked Rebellion and want to see what Hanokage does with it. Otherwise, it can be skipped. Amazon Links: Volume 1 Volume 2 Volume 3  Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Wraith Arc Summary: A manga similar to The Different Story which is set in Madoka’s new world prior to Rebellion. Currently, only one volume has been released in Japan at this time, and it is still being serialized in Manga Time Kirara Magica. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 23:21
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Namtab posted:Ice burn by the guy with the weird hateboner for namtab It's not that I hate you, it's your posting is really poo poo. It's effortless and drivel thinking you are way more important and relevant than you are. You sometimes make good posts and I like those. I just wish you made nothing but those posts.
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Feb 5, 2016 12:37
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Mordaedil posted:It's not that I hate you, it's your posting is really poo poo. It's effortless and drivel thinking you are way more important and relevant than you are. You sometimes make good posts and I like those. I just wish you made nothing but those posts. His posts are amusing and lighten up the thread  And I don't know where you get the self importance thing. Perhaps projection?
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Feb 5, 2016 15:25
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PerrineClostermann posted:His posts are amusing and lighten up the thread Some of them work that way, admittedly, but I don't feel this belongs anywhere: Namtab posted:
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Feb 5, 2016 16:33
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Mordaedil posted:It's not that I hate you, it's your posting is really poo poo. It's effortless and drivel thinking you are way more important and relevant than you are. You sometimes make good posts and I like those. I just wish you made nothing but those posts. This is worse than any one-word joke post.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:54
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Backwards Batman's posting is fine and they have contributed insights onto the Madokas conversation that I personally enjoy reading along with Lord Justice's posts. It's been an okay thread so far.
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Feb 5, 2016 18:58
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Just ignore him or use a script or something, Mordaedil. You aren't going to get anywhere by arguing against it and it's not worth trying. To get away from that, here's a topic. What are people's expectations for the new Madoka project? Personally I'm hoping that it'll lead to Homura getting over Madoka (and I'll be doing a larger post on why I think this is probable in a couple weeks).
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Feb 5, 2016 21:04
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My expectation is that it'll end madoka and that madoka stays ended.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:12
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Namtab posted:My expectation is that it'll end madoka and that madoka stays ended. After Rebellion this is what I want -monogatari is a Shaft show that can continue forever and not suffer for it in my eyes. Madoka notsomuch.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:23
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Another thing I decided after watching Rebellion: Kyubey is boring now so I would rather not see him in it just because that's what the fans want
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Feb 5, 2016 21:24
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Namtab posted:My expectation is that it'll end madoka and that madoka stays ended. I'm sure Anno thought the same thing about Eva when he made EoE all those years ago.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:27
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Srice posted:Another thing I decided after watching Rebellion: Kyubey is boring now so I would rather not see him in it just because that's what the fans want I disagree completely, Kyubey showing up at Homura with his smug All According to Keikaku speech was one of the best parts of the film. Furthermore, Kyubey's subjugation by Homura and its effect on him (them?) is something worth exploring in whatever the follow up ends up being.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:31
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Kyubey: "Why me? This doesn't have any merit." From the Concept Movie, it looks like the Incubators still have a role to play, but I'm hoping it's a lesser role at this point. Rebellion was in part their total defeat, both in terms of their manipulative ability being stripped from them, as well as their agency being taken away by Demon Homura. This new project is going to have antagonistic dynamics between Homura, Sayaka, Mami, and Madoka, and throwing a fifth actor into that could muddy the waters more than I'd like. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 21:38
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Srice posted:Another thing I decided after watching Rebellion: Kyubey is boring now so I would rather not see him in it just because that's what the fans want He's going to be in it, and he's going to be afraid
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Feb 5, 2016 21:39
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To put it another way. For me, rebellion was not a movie that needed to exist. I felt that all the characters (including homura) arcs ended quite well within the original series. Homura achieved her goal of saving madoka and has madoka recognise the sacrifices she made to get to that point. But then rebellion came out and upset the applecart, and although it's a decent movie it's clear that it was made in order to artificially extend the franchise. That said though, one thing I did like was the end result for qb as he finally got his comeuppance. He did a deal with homura which ultimately resulted in homura getting the upper hand, and ultimately, much like homura, he knows that homuras utopia can only last so long before she destroys everything. That is the only interesting angle for me in the next movie.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:53
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 07:19 |
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some cards from madogatari  
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Feb 5, 2016 21:56
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