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SamuraiFoochs posted:Short answer: yes. A good point and a good explanation. But dsriggs posted:For example, Reigns went 128-13-5 in singles matches in 2015. Cena went 98-9-0 in a shortened year. Meanwhile, Heath Slater went 1-70-0. But wins & losses don't matter, apparently. Stop using house show numbers in win-loss records, they don't mean anything.
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Feb 8, 2016 17:11
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Angular Landbury posted:Basically the concept that Road Dogg (and Vince, based on his interview with Austin) miss is that you can't just use the word "stories" as an all-purpose get-out-of-making-sense-free card. Let's just call it what it is: a talking point spin to justify why they aren't doing more with their talent.
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Feb 8, 2016 17:12
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IcePhoenix posted:Stop using house show numbers in win-loss records, they don't mean anything. Ok, Reigns still went 70-16-6 on TV. Compared to, say, Cesaro's Literal 50/50 booking (40-40-1 on tv), it seems pretty clear that giving important characters wins still counts for SOMETHING.
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Feb 8, 2016 17:20
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Props to Roadie for engaging the person like an adult and not just falling back on calling him a mark or saying "you never wrestled, your opinion means nothing" which seems to be a common defence when the company is criticized
El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 17:30
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you can make stories, but it doesn't matter if said stories are poo poo
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Feb 8, 2016 17:35
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Props to Roadie for engaging the person like an adult and not just falling back on calling him a mark or saying "you never wrestled, your opinion means nothing" which seems to be a common defence when the company is criticized
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Feb 8, 2016 17:41
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Discount Trombones posted:Yeah, he jumped up a few hundred places on the "might actually be a decent human being" list based on this tweet alone. He's always struck me as a guy who didn't buy into his own hype
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Feb 8, 2016 17:44
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dsriggs posted:Ok, Reigns still went 70-16-6 on TV. Compared to, say, Cesaro's Literal 50/50 booking (40-40-1 on tv), it seems pretty clear that giving important characters wins still counts for SOMETHING. How did Reigns get three more losses when you switched to TV numbers  Seriously though, you're right, wins and losses do matter. But if you book someone well enough (or they're just that good) you can still get and stay over, albeit to a lesser extent, while not winning all the time.
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Feb 8, 2016 17:45
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IcePhoenix posted:How did Reigns get three more losses when you switched to TV numbers Yeah the truth in this debate is very much contextual. Because the guy who tweeted was right, the Outlaws were protected at first; they had to be, because when the team formed, it was two JTTS who didn't win much. With Owens, him beating John Cena legitimized him somewhat, they just didn't finish the job in booking him credibly.
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Feb 8, 2016 17:47
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It was okay for the New Age Outlaws to lose all the time because they were part of the biggest faction in Wrestling at the time during their hottest period, and they were being given a lot of camera time in what was compelling TV (at the time). You can't keep treating your product like everyone's supposed to be over as gently caress just because you say they are and then turn around and punish them when they're not over (Or too over) or whatever loving nonsense is going on where people have 50-50 booking and really godawful stories, it's insulting to fans which is why they'll sit on their hands for most of a show.
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Feb 8, 2016 18:09
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IcePhoenix posted:How did Reigns get three more losses when you switched to TV numbers ...aaaah, I didn't notice that! I THINK that's because the site I got the stats from differentiated between singles matches & tag matches overall, but not for TV matches & the extra losses were tags? 
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Feb 8, 2016 18:09
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Speaking of Owens, It's still so cool how they ruined both Kevin Owens and the Avalanche AA in like a minute. Why not have him just lose to the invincible super move if he has to lose?
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Feb 8, 2016 18:22
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projecthalaxy posted:Speaking of Owens, It's still so cool how they ruined both Kevin Owens and the Avalanche AA in like a minute. Why not have him just lose to the invincible super move if he has to lose? Yeah, I remember thinking they were actually gonna put Owens over again when he kicked out out of that. WWE and booking logic are kinda distant, though.
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Feb 8, 2016 18:30
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The answer is because John Cena, Indie Wrestler felt like it. It was a hell of a nearfall
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Feb 8, 2016 18:43
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We need to go back in time and kill whoever gave John that PWG dvd
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Feb 8, 2016 18:49
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Wins and losses don't matter so long as the story is compelling and it makes sense in the long run for those losses and wins to have occurred. However WWE doesn't do compelling stories and they treat wins and losses as superfluous to their stories. It goes both ways as well. John Cena's year of Hell after his loss to The Rock was a year where he won every feud he was in and his story and character suffered for it. WWE has an answer for every criticism that basically says that the person criticising them is wrong because their complaint isn't even an issue. Old Wrestling guys disagree with the booking? Well we're not wrestling, we're sports entertainment. Writers are criticising the product? Well they just don't understand The Business. Complaining about a character looking weak after losing several times? Well wins and losses don't matter.
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Feb 8, 2016 18:54
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Road Dogg has publicly said that if you don't like WWE then you shouldn't watch it. He's pretty much as honest as it gets, so he's cool in my book.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:03
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Well, it finally came to this  
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Feb 8, 2016 19:11
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YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
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Feb 8, 2016 19:14
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Irritated Goat posted:Well, it finally came to this Kinda bittersweet. I'm glad he's making the right decision, assuming it's not a work to get heat on somebody. On the other hand, he's one of my favorite wrestlers and it sucks to find out he's done for good.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:15
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I take solace in the fact that it's a wrestling retirement and he'll be back wrestling in six month's time.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:18
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Really excited to see Daniel Bryan in the G1 this summer.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:21
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How bad is his injury exactly? Is it like Edge's where one bad bump could paralyse him?
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Feb 8, 2016 19:22
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TwoDogs1Cup posted:How bad is his injury exactly? That seems possible. He's had long-term concussion issues and he has a severe neck injury. That combo is bad for taking even the most basic of bumps.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:26
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not unexpected but secretly hoped he had another run left. hey, he had many, many incredible years on his own and around 4 fantastic years in WWE. Not many people had the streak of excellence he got to taste. just sad he won't get his nakamura match.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:26
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Bryan is going to come out to retire and Nakamura will debut and challenge him to a final match
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Feb 8, 2016 19:30
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For the record, the Mark Henry retirement RAW was my favorite moment. Can't wait for DB to rehash the gimmick.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:40
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Irritated Goat posted:Well, it finally came to this He had a good run. gently caress Sheamus.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:44
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I hope it's a fakeout and we get DBry x Undertaker or something, but...that doesn't seem likely, does it? Oh well, health above everything else, hopefully he gets to be a trainer at the PC and isn't so hosed up that he can't do the occasional NXT Final Boss match like Regal used to.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:45
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IcePhoenix posted:Didn't CM Punk lose every PPV match he had for like over a year straight but still stay as over as always? And I think Dean had a similar streak recently... Dean went a full years worth of PPVS without picking up a victory. After beating Evolution as part of the Shield at Payback he didn't win another PPV match until Extreme Rules. He lost MITB due to interference by Kane He lost to Rollins via forfeit because he was kicked out of the building by security for attacking Rollins well before the match. He lost a lumberjack match to Rollins at Summerslam because of Kane. He wasn't booked for NOC. He lost to Rollins at HIAC after Hatsune Miku stunned him. He lost at Survivor Series because he beat the poo poo out of Bray with a chair and was disqualified. He lost at TLC because WWE doesn't understand what a CRT monitor was. He entered and failed to win the Royal Rumble. He lost to Wade Barrett at Fastlane after he was disqualified by the referee for failing to respect the 5 count in the corner. He lost the IC ladder match at Wrestlemania. He finally beat Luke Harper at Extreme Rules in a nearly hour long street fight that was good. So yeah, 10 of his 11 PPV appearances were losses, but they really didn't hurt his heat because short of the Rumble and WM matches, they all were positive momentum and he generally got a moral victory of sorts in the process.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:47
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ayn rand hand job posted:So yeah, 10 of his 11 PPV appearances were losses, but they really didn't hurt his heat  sure
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Feb 8, 2016 19:49
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Black Is Black posted:For the record, the Mark Henry retirement RAW was my favorite moment. Can't wait for DB to rehash the gimmick. Only if this one also ends with Mark Henry tapping out to John Cena
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Feb 8, 2016 19:59
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Angular Landbury posted:Basically the concept that Road Dogg (and Vince, based on his interview with Austin) miss is that you can't just use the word "stories" as an all-purpose get-out-of-making-sense-free card. Bray Wyatt gets wins when they don't matter, too, but he doesn't win on PPV or big matches and doesn't get protection to any kind of the same extent. His losses don't affect his storyline or his character, or often even the next Raw. And yet, every time he has a big match coming, the powers that be clearly believe that him coming out and cutting a promo and crafting a story solely through those promos will build heat. And it doesn't. Build around him, and they could probably have that, but Bray is probably the biggest current example of "story is all, wins and losses don't matter" bullshit thinking there currently is in WWE.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:19
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ayn rand hand job posted:So yeah, 10 of his 11 PPV appearances were losses, but they really didn't hurt his heat because short of the Rumble and WM matches, they all were positive momentum and he generally got a moral victory of sorts in the process. I remember there was some guy who thought it was the most hi-larious thing ever to post his win record, because hey guys that guy you like loses a lot. The thing was, nobody who I watch with cared about that. We just had fun watching Ambrose terrorize Rollins/Bray/Wade. Ambrose's losses didn't impact his heat too much because every time he lost, he came back and he did something else really funny. Hatsune Miku and the TV were still stupid.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:27
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Ambrose losing all the time absolutely hurt his heat
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Feb 8, 2016 20:31
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The idea that wins and losses don't matter because it's fake is so silly If you have a sitcom where one character acts like a total chump and all the other characters make fun of him for being a big fat loser and he just goes home and cries about it, he's probably not going to be a popular character. If someone on TWD fucks up and gets everyone eaten repeatedly, they might get some sweet 'heel heat' I suppose as the fans eagerly await the character's horrible death, but no one wants to see them I mean obviously trying to compare wrestling to "real" TV is loving stupid anyway, but even in that reality a character being a big loser makes them less popular. That's kind of how humanity works. Knowing that wrestling is fake, we still judge how much investment their is in a character, and how "important" they are, by how strong they look on TV. If that's not the case, why does any wrestler want a creative control clause? Why does Brock Lesnar's character revolve around him being an unbeatable badass? Couldn't they tell just as good of a story about how Brock has erectile dysfunction and also shits himself when he loses a match? Think of the sympathy! Otherwise I totally agree with the Road Dogg
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Feb 8, 2016 20:47
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Wins and Losses don't matter as long as your character still wins big matches with stakes. If someone goes 0-4 on Raw matches but then wins the PPV match as part of the storyline, that's easier to defend than whatever the gently caress they're doing to Dean Ambrose or Cesaro.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:55
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People don't want to pay a lot for a Cleveland browns game in December because they lose a lot. People pay big bucks for patriot games because they always win. Imagine if instead of winning every match Goldberg had random losses in his run. He's not the same guy. Not sure why that concept is hard for wwe to grasp. Just look how they killed rusev.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:57
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"wins and losses don't matter" is the dumbest loving statement
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Feb 8, 2016 21:18
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ambrose was in a good KO match and then later dragged his broken rear end out to be the last guy in the ring with HHH, pretty sure he's gonna be fine. somebody loves that insane gently caress
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Feb 8, 2016 21:21
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