|
JVNO posted:As well using bad faith but persuasive arguments is itself scummy as gently caress. I thought liberterians/objectivists tended to reject consequentialist ethics? Libertarians are only against things when someone else does it.
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 16:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 19:54 |
|
|
Jrod, if you love black music and culture so much, how did you not know that purple drank is made with lemon-lime soda (e.g. Mountain Dew) and maybe a hard fruit candy (e.g. Jolly Rancher)? That's very different from the iced tea and Skittles that Trayvon Martin was carrying when he was killed! So how could you not have recognized the "Trayvon was going to make purple drank!" story as a hastily slapped-together dog whistle made up by white pundits trying to justify the boy's death after the fact? (I'm guessing that when you say, "I love black music and culture," you mean "I love jazz and the more famous Harlem Renaissance poets, not that nasty thug music.") Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:05
|
|
|
Oh yes I love the black music, you know, like Burzum. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
Man, I keep chomping at the bit with that Jazz music question since I loving love Jazz music and sincerely wish Jrode could see past his blinding racism to appreciate it. How much longer do I have to wait before I can give my answers? I'd tag it with spoilers, promise.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
JVNO posted:As well using bad faith but persuasive arguments is itself scummy as gently caress. I thought liberterians/objectivists tended to reject consequentialist ethics? JRod veers all over the goddamned place on consequentialism. He argues for libertarianism based on all the wonderful things that would be brought about deregulating pharmaceuticals or whatever, then falls back on "ethics are deontological, it doesn't matter what the results are" when we point out what a shitshow it would be. The economic theory is explicitly grounded in utilitarianism, but he'll happily chide us for not following the Categorical Imperative (or his breathtakingly poor reading of it). Once you realize he's arguing in bad faith and/or doesn't understand his own talking points, it makes a little more sense. GunnerJ posted:This seems to be the playbook he's working from: https://www.unz.org/Pub/Reason-1977dec-00020?View=PDF This looks like a fun read. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he can't even come up with his evangelism strategy on his own. e: oh man, this is so loving tone deaf. It's describing the exact "mimic their cultural signifiers, the dumb statists will buy into anything if you convince them you're part of the tribe" bullshit our dear Rodimus pulls all the loving time with his National Assembly ramblings. quote:Many individuals are married to a subculture jargon, a special syntax, and communication must take place in their dialect or not at all. To reach these people, one must know their language, the evidence and arguments with which their views are supported, their wants and needs, and their emotional cue words. These are the elements of successful political cross-dressing. Goon Danton fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
Pththya-lyi posted:Jrod, if you love black music and culture so much, how did you not know that purple drank is made with lemon-lime soda (e.g. Mountain Dew) and maybe a hard fruit candy (e.g. Jolly Rancher)? That's very different from the iced tea and Skittles that Trayvon Martin was carrying when he was killed! So how could you not have recognized the "Trayvon was going to make purple drank!" story as a hastily slapped-together dog whistle made up by white pundits trying to justify the boy's death after the fact? "Reasonable doubt" apparently includes "the completely innocuous foodstuffs the victim was carrying could have been a personal unorthodox taste of his that he liked to use alongside the zero actual narcotics he was carrying (but could have had at home maybe), and despite his clean toxicology for codeine for all we know he could have been a habitual user of it anyway to such a degree that it damaged his brain and turned him into a violent killer". Clearly this theory put forth by white supremacists is reasonable doubt whereas everyone who thinks it's unreasonable is a racist who is siding with Trayvon because they don't want to admit that all black people are probably violent brain damaged Robitussin fiends.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:30
|
|
|
Nolanar posted:JRod veers all over the goddamned place on consequentialism. Should have known better than to expect intellectual honesty and consistency from JRode 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:35
|
|
|
jrodefeld posted:The idea that I am even bothering to defend multiple year old posts about a long resolved criminal trial is absurd. But what if I was concerned about an ISIS attack on Los Angeles? Would I be unreasonable in being extra cautious about Middle Eastern men who were also Muslims? Would that make me a bigot, even though the clear evidence shows that nearly all ISIS members are Muslims who are of Middle Eastern descent? Who What Now posted:Yes, this would absolutely make you a bigot. That's like the exact literal definition of bigotry you ignorant loving slime!   The (rather pale-skinned) men in these pictures are ISIL fighters who surrendered to the Kurds. Do you notice how they don't look Middle Eastern? That's because they're most likely ISIL foreign fighters from the Caucuses, which would make them... Caucasian. Meanwhile, the "Middle Eastern Muslim men" in these pictures that you're making GBS threads your pants about are the (mostly) good guys fighting against ISIL. The US is helping them with that, which I know you also hate. So yeah, gently caress your racist poo poo and gently caress your dumbass ideology you bigoted rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:Jrod is not an honest libertarian. Old Timey Shopkeeper: "They say you never flamed an honest libertarian." Gritty Protagonist: "I never met an honest libertarian."
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:04
|
|
|
Nolanar posted:JRod veers all over the goddamned place on consequentialism. Jrode has made it clear several times that he is a deontologist who is attempting to persuade consequentialists with a consequentialist argument, even though it is not at the core of his belief system, because it is at the core of ours.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
Oh, FYI I wouldn't worry too much about ISIS committing very many organized terrorist acts against the West, since they're encouraging Muslims - especially those with useful skills, such as doctors and engineers - to move to the Islamic State and help them consolidate power in the region. Every issue of their glossy propaganda magazine, Dabiq begs the reader to migrate to the Caliphate, and that only Muslims who absolutely positively cannot make the journey should consider staying in the West and committing terror attacks. ISIS's main goal is to force the "Crusader armies" to come to them, to land in the town of Dabiq in northern Syria, so an apocalyptic battle can take place. That's what they're working for, and that's what they want Muslims to focus on. To ISIS, terrorism is a waste of their time!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:16
|
|
|
fade5 posted:I'm sorry, I just have to take a second to laugh so hard at this. I'm amazed at how amazingly wrong and racist everything in Jrod's statement is. Now I have to show you something: (Of course, in Russia, there's plenty of clearly Caucasian Islamist terrorists - again, people literally from the caucasus.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:16
|
|
|
JVNO posted:How many years has JRode been parroting the same talking points and apologetics about libertarianism? Must be north of 5 years now. I applaud anyone who addresses him in sincerity because it's clear he believes he's found the 'right' philosophy and will not budge on any ground. One time I got him to engage with me acknowledging I'm a government worker and then he tried to imply I was a horrible person for it and had to back off of it when it became obvious to even him that there was no way to hang the standard libertarian evils on me. In retrospect being how long ago that was it probably gave people the misconception that in some rare exactly targeted argument could get through to him. Nope. *Bullhorns at Jrod* What's your tax liability you racist bitchass?! E: quote:These are the elements of successful political cross-dressing. 
RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
Pththya-lyi posted:Oh, FYI I wouldn't worry too much about ISIS committing very many organized terrorist acts against the West, since they're encouraging Muslims - especially those with useful skills, such as doctors and engineers - to move to the Islamic State and help them consolidate power in the region. Every issue of their glossy propaganda magazine, Dabiq, devotes its pages to begging the faithful to migrate to the Caliphate, and that only Muslims who absolutely positively cannot make the journey should consider staying in the West and committing terror attacks. ISIS's main goal is to force the "Crusader armies" to come to them, to land in the town of Dabiq in northern Syria, so an apocalyptic battle can take place. That's what they're working for, and that's what they want Muslims to focus on. To ISIS, terrorism is a waste of their time! Now a major difference between Bin Laden and ISIS is that ISIS holds territory and has as a keystone of its ideology that all real muslims must move to the Islamic State, but it is not inherently so that hoping for the West to invade you means you don't go to the West to blow up stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
jrodefeld posted:You, frankly, don't have a clue what you are talking about. I want to caution people that somehow think that I am somehow obsessing about race, that you all do fine obsessing about race without me. The reason I react so strongly to this character assassination attack against me, is that I personally focus a great deal on the systemic racism and discrimination that the State and private citizens inflict upon minority communities in the United States. This is a passion of mine. I love black culture, black music, black comedy and so forth. And I'm not just saying that. Since middle school, I've idolized black role models and I've identified with civil rights causes as long as I was ever politically aware. Here's some advice. When someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. It's very hard to argue with that because nine times out of ten, you end up saying something that digs you deeper into the hole. And then more people pounce on you and you start digging deeper, and next thing you know, you're in the molten core of the Earth. You don't have to defend every claim made against you. You'll get a lot farther if you pick your battles. Also, saying that you like black culture is not an argument against racism. Being a racist doesn't mean you're in the KKK or you hate them. It just means you have some level of prejudice against them. quote:The idea that I am even bothering to defend multiple year old posts about a long resolved criminal trial is absurd. But what if I was concerned about an ISIS attack on Los Angeles? Would I be unreasonable in being extra cautious about Middle Eastern men who were also Muslims? Would that make me a bigot, even though the clear evidence shows that nearly all ISIS members are Muslims who are of Middle Eastern descent? See what I mean. We're smart people. We know that there are other signs we can look at that would be more accurate. The problem is that statements like these are to inelegant to come off as anything but racist. I assume that's not your intention, but you're hurting yourself because you need to try and prove everybody wrong on every point, and so you say stuff like this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:To be fair, I think the much more salient islamist terrorists committing murders in the West have so far been exclusively of "Middle eastern ethnicity" and, less common, black, right? From what I understand from the BBC World Service, ISIS is bribing subsistence farmers and others from Sudan and Somalia (I believe) $1,000 USD - the equivalent of a year's salary - to come fight in Libya and Syria. So it's possibly becoming more common for Africans to join their ranks as ISIS exploits the poverty of developing/undeveloped countries. I may have mixed up al-Nusra and ISIS from the report, but you get the idea. I'm sure fade5 or somebody will correct me on the particulars. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
Pththya-lyi posted:Oh, FYI I wouldn't worry too much about ISIS committing very many organized terrorist acts against the West, since they're encouraging Muslims - especially those with useful skills, such as doctors and engineers - to move to the Islamic State and help them consolidate power in the region. Every issue of their glossy propaganda magazine, Dabiq begs the reader to migrate to the Caliphate, and that only Muslims who absolutely positively cannot make the journey should consider staying in the West and committing terror attacks. ISIS's main goal is to force the "Crusader armies" to come to them, to land in the town of Dabiq in northern Syria, so an apocalyptic battle can take place. That's what they're working for, and that's what they want Muslims to focus on. To ISIS, terrorism is a waste of their time! Cingulate posted:Bin Laden's primary goal was also to bait the Crusaders into an all-out invasion of Muslim lands, and he did 9/11 with that goal in mind. Listen, all Jrod knows is that all of those swarthy middle-eastern guys are over there in Uz-beki-eki-eki-stan or wherever sharpening their falchions and lusting for white blood. Jrod88 is just concerned with securing the existence of his people and a future for white children.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
RuanGacho posted:One time I got him to engage with me acknowledging I'm a government worker and then he tried to imply I was a horrible person for it and had to back off of it when it became obvious to even him that there was no way to hang the standard libertarian evils on me. I remember that! I recall there being a bit like: Jrod: All bureaucrats are morally terrible and should stop doing their jobs and move into the private sector RuanGaucho: What if you were offered a high paying government job? Jrod: ...Okay so maybe not ALL bureaucrats...
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
Igiari posted:I remember that! I recall there being a bit like: The only moral bureaucracy is my bureaucracy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:From what I understand from the BBC World Service, ISIS is bribing subsistence farmers and others from Sudan and Somalia (I believe) $1,000 USD - the equivalent of a year's salary - to come fight in Libya and Syria. So it's possibly becoming more common for Africans to join their ranks as ISIS exploits the poverty of developing/undeveloped countries. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/minneapolis-community-struggles-with-isis-recruiting-tactics/ Note that these people would not generally be described as Middle Eastern, although Jrod would be just as scared of them for similar (racist) reasons. The point is gently caress you Jrod, you are indeed an unreasonable racist bigot. Question: Jrod, do you like Trump? I would be completely unsurprised if the answer was yes. fade5 fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:08
|
|
|
Is there a good resource for maps that show ISIS territorial change on a timeline? I've been looking for such a thing for ages but I mostly just come up with isolated maps from different news sources that all seem to conflict with one another. Edit: I meant to post this in the CanPol thread, that is also discussing ISIS at the moment. Oops.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:12
|
|
|
JVNO posted:Is there a good resource for maps that show ISIS territorial change on a timeline? I've been looking for such a thing for ages but I mostly just come up with isolated maps from different news sources that all seem to conflict with one another.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:21
|
|
|
Cemetry Gator posted:Here's some advice. When someone calls you a racist, don't argue with them. It's very hard to argue with that because nine times out of ten, you end up saying something that digs you deeper into the hole. And then more people pounce on you and you start digging deeper, and next thing you know, you're in the molten core of the Earth. It would help even more if the end of that sentence wasn't "...here's a white supremacist I agree with!"
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:22
|
|
|
Cemetry Gator posted:See what I mean. We're smart people. We know that there are other signs we can look at that would be more accurate. The problem is that statements like these are to inelegant to come off as anything but racist. Unfortunately, going by nearly half a decade of his posts about race I can say with certainty that Jrod almost certainly believes what he wrote and does not understand why saying that it's wise to assume all Arabic Muslims are members of ISIL is racist. Because, to his mind, he's not judging them for being Arabic and no other reason, he's judging them for specifically fitting the criteria (or what he thinks is the criteria) of an ISIL fighter and that this is just good common sense, like wearing a seatbelt or drilling out Mercury fillings. He thinks he is/will be doing this on a case-by-case basis. This individual is an Arabic Muslim, ergo treat him with caution, but this individual is an Arabic Christian, and thus has done no wrong. Because there are conceivably cases where some Arabic people could be considered, shall we say, "one of the good ones" and also based on non-racial criteria it de facto cannot be racist. This is logic and an argument that he himself has made before. Jrod's issue is that he flat out has no idea what racism even is. I mean, look at his own words: Jrodefeld, who has never read anything of Dr. King's writings posted:Libertarians are incapable of being racists. The philosophy of individual liberty is incompatible with all forms of bigotry, intolerance, and prejudice. A libertarian sees all people as not members of groups but as individuals who should be judged by their character and actions, just as my personal hero Dr Martin Luther King Jr. advocated. Libertarians are a priori incapable of being racist according to him. Anything a libertarian says or does can never be considered racism by default. And it's old wisdom that most racist don't actually believe they are racist, and it turns out going a step further and considering yourself incapable of racism makes it super loving easy to be hella racist. Unfortunately for him, though, he is well past the point where ignorance is any kind of excuse because his is a purposeful and willful ignorance. He gleefully wallows in ignorance despite ample irrefutable evidence and argument that what he says and believes regard race and sex are flat out wrong. He most likely does not hate non-whites, he probably even thinks that he does want what's best for them. But Jrod undeniably hold gross prejudices on non-whites and, going by his few posts about them, most likely women as well. He will deny this because, again, he doesn't understand what racism and sexism even are, but when he talks about what he believes he reveals his true intentions to the world.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:22
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:"A libertarian sees all people as not members of groups but as individuals who should be judged by their character and actions"
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:31
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:If that is so, then no Libertarians exist, because it's basically impossible for humans to think like that. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
theshim posted:Pff, that's just what a statist would do, write off humans as a group rather than understand them on an individual level
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:38
|
|
|
fade5 posted:Huh, I hadn't heard of that, I had heard that ISIL is sending fighters to Libya because they're getting beaten up so much in Iraq and Syria. I had also heard about Somalis (either refugees or their kids) from Minnesota (of all places) being radicalized and leaving to join ISIL or Al Shabaab: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12134806/Isil-recruiting-migrant-army-of-the-poor-with-1000-sign-up-bonuses.html I originally heard it on BBC Radio but it looks like it's getting play elsewhere as well. Essentially, it's about ISIS recruiting an 'Army of the Poor' from Chad, Mali, and Sudan with $1,000 signing on bonuses, which is the year's salary I mentioned earlier. Probably better suited for the Middle East thread; but, to tie it to this thread, I'd be interested in hearing Jrode's response on whether this constitutes economic coercion and whether or not that's a real concept to contemplate in Libertarianism (ie NAP) and whether economic violence is a motivating force to him. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:52
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:
He's also by all available evidence unable to recognize his own capacity for prejudice, even though everyone is prejudiced to some extent or another ( though I should note that I'm using 'prejudice' here to mean Gadamer's hermeneutic prejudices, i.e. pre-judgements ). This is an amazing blind-spot to have in any discussion, because the inability to even recognize your own biases leads very quickly to the kind of infallibility-complex that JRod seems to be demonstrating. JRod's form of 'debate' is, in fact, pretty much exactly what you can expect to get when someone is incapable of recognizing the influence of preconceived notions on their view of the world. And, because he's fallen into the Libertarian trap of thinking of himself as perfectly objective and 'reasoning from first principles', it leads to him swallowing and then regurgitating anything ever said by authors who label themselves Libertarian, no matter how vile it is, since all Libertarians are objective and logical and reasonable, and everyone else is of the devil. e: Actually, to use a pretty good example, let me use my own thinking and preconceived ideas about Libertarians as an example. When I first came across the other thread, I considered Libertarians to be slightly wacky, but generally harmless. After all, I've hung around with anarchists before, and I had quite a bit of sympathy for them and their insistence of devolving as much - or all - power to the local level. Thanks to JRode's behavior and the 'thinkers' he's cited, however, the scales have fallen from my eyes, so to speak, and I now consider Libertarianism as he's presenting it to be a poisonous ideology of the highest order. So my prejudices have been proven completely incorrect... Though not, I'll wager, in the way that JRode hoped! TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:53
|
|
|
Everyone should be treated as individuals, and that's why I profile the poo poo out of Arabs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 19:57
|
|
|
what Jrod thinks MLK said posted:I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character; which includes where they are from and what their religion is. Remember, don't trust the negroes from the cities because they're probably gang members! Oh, if only they had back-breaking jobs working for pennies an hour to keep them from that life, but they do not and so cannot be trusted. Keep your pearls clutched tightly!
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:11
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12134806/Isil-recruiting-migrant-army-of-the-poor-with-1000-sign-up-bonuses.html Come on, prove me wrong Jrod. Answer Your Dunkle Sans's question. Or are you a coward? 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Hey jrod, here's a hypothetical - you live in the suburbs in a nice house with a nice lawn, away from those urban ferals in the city. One day, you hear noises outside your door. Looking stealthily out a window you saw a bunch of kids playing on your lawn. Now, imagine for this moment that you're allowed to act as libertarian as you want with no repercussions from the evil state, what would you do? 1. Go back inside, it's just kids, who cares? (if you pick this one I'll assume you're lying) 2. Go out and shout 'GET OFF MY LAWN' while raising a shaking fist. 3. Do what you have to do to protect what's yours... *ka-chunk* 4. Take the kids and demand weregild for their release. 5. Take the kids as servants. They have aggressed against your property, and as punishment will be your property. You'll release them when you feel they've worked away their debt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
fade5 posted:Huh, interesting. (And depressing.) I went ahead and crossposted this and my response over to the Middle East thread to continue it there, since Jrod is almost certainly not going to answer your question. It's weird - Libertarians are so obsessed with state violence and the use of force/aggression, but are strangely silent when it comes to economic coercion. To them, it's merely a conscious choice or "ethnic time preference" to work minimum wage jobs and are confused (or worse, give tacit approval of) when you bring up things like income inequality or poverty traps as things that exist. The poor just choose to be poor, therefore it's their fault for being poor and losers in the free market. Hmmmm...
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
Your Dunkle Sans posted:It's weird - Libertarians are so obsessed with state violence and the use of force/aggression, but are strangely silent when it comes to economic coercion. To them, it's merely a conscious choice or "ethnic time preference" to work minimum wage jobs and are confused (or worse, give tacit approval of) when you bring up things like income inequality or poverty traps as things that exist. Economic coercion doesn't exist you silly statist, it's all a matter of what you're willing to do versus what you won't (probably because you're lazy and/or racially inferior). Also, all personal liberties ultimately flow from economic liberty which is entirely compatible with the former sentence and not at all total horseshit. *begins eying honeydew lasciviously*
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:39
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure you guys all spend way too much time thinking about JRod.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:40
|
|
|
Are you guys seriously surprised that jrode is as ignorant of the Middle East as he is economics/medicine/everything else? I almost wonder why it hasn't come up sooner. Since he's not going to answer anyone's questions anyway I almost wish he would just start posting about random things just to see how wrong he gets it. Like, jrode's guide to making a PB&J sandwich ends up with the peanut butter on the outside of the bread and the jelly thrown in the trash.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
To be fair most jelly belongs in the trash.
Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Feb 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:48
|
|
|
Wolfsheim posted:Are you guys seriously surprised that jrode is as ignorant of the Middle East as he is economics/medicine/everything else? I almost wonder why it hasn't come up sooner. He doesn't have to pay the man taxes because he deliberately avoids becoming successful so the government won't regulate him further.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 19:54 |
|
|
Who What Now posted:To be fair must jelly belongs in the trash. Jelly is the tool of the Statist, comrade. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 21:03
|
|