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I think I can see where Lord Justice's arguments are coming from - I find the story of series and Rebellion interesting from an individualism vs collectivism point of view, and am not a fan of self-sacrifice being glorified in media myself generally. But I simply don't think the franchise supports any reading of Homura being in the right, at all. Even if you think she should be, or could be, everything from what is pointedly shown and not shown in Madoka's world and in hers, to the art-direction, to the characters themselves, everything says otherwise. Maybe another series or movie will change that, but that's just speculation. I simply feel that Madoka is not very well set up to contrast the values and pros/cons of self-sacrifice and in broader terms, individuality versus collectivity. Because if we accept Homura and Madoka as the representations of these ideals, the story even through Rebellion is stacked way in Madoka's favor. For example, both Madoka and Homura use their powers to create a new world with their own rules, but we see Madoka's world as one who only benefits from her changes, and where her changes does not infringe on anyone else's agency, while Homura's is centered on the removal of agency from Madoka. Story- and character-wise, that makes complete sense, from the characters themselves to how they came to the point of creating their worlds, but it doesn't exactly make for a balanced discussion on the pros and cons of Madoka's sacrifice. Similarly, only Homura herself is asked to deal with Madoka's decision to sacrifice herself, while her friends and family are made to forget her entirely (note that this is not at all depicted as a bad thing despite an easy parallel being made between their position in Goddess Madoka's world, as Madoka is to Homura's world). The negative effects your death will have on those close to you would obviously be among the biggest arguments against sacrificing yourself for some nebulous greater good. If the show was interested in examining this, one could imagine the scene of Madoka freaking out only to have Homura rush over to defuse the situation towards the end of Rebellion with Madoka's mom or dad in her place and Madoka in Homura's. But that didn't happen. In fact they seemed as happy as ever when Homura meets them and Tatsuya at the very end of the series, if not even happier. And that difference may not be 'fair' or whatever, but it is the story that's being told, and it's not in the wrong because of it. I've said before that I think the series is the stronger thematic work with a more coherent message, compared to Rebellion. And that's not a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. Personally I adore Rebellion and vastly prefer Rebellion Homura to episode 12 Homura, but even with my biases I don't think Homura is in the right or justified for what she does at the end of the movie. To me, Madoka's sacrifice being unambiguously right feels like one of the things the series wants us to accept as a universal truth, a ground rule of the Madoka universe. But I'm open to that changing in an eventual new movie or show.
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Feb 9, 2016 15:44
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Lord Justice: have you seen Bakemonogatari (and its sequels)? I ask because a) it's made by many of the same people as Madoka and b) it's much more amenable to the sort of analysis you seem to enjoy.
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Feb 9, 2016 18:40
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Dzhay posted:Lord Justice: have you seen Bakemonogatari (and its sequels)? Fool! What have you done? We'll get a LJ analysis of the toothbrush scene.
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Feb 9, 2016 18:42
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Mordaedil, you're completely correct on why I interpret Fate/Zero the way I do. I watched Fate/Zero first without having any real idea what Fate/Stay Night is and really liked what I watched. Then I watched Unlimited Blade Works (well, mostly, I got to episode 24 and stopped, I had no interest in the final episode and episode 24 was one of the most infuriating things I've ever had the displeasure of sitting through) and hated it, Shirou especially. Considering Shirou is the entire focus of Fate/Stay Night, it's impossible for me to read and enjoy it because I just do not like Shirou's character, at all, and I never, ever will. Which effectively leaves me with a quandary, I like Fate/Zero, but hate Fate/Stay Night. So, in order to continue to enjoy and think about Fate/Zero, I divorce the two and just think of Fate/Zero as an independent work, and I feel it works that way. Insurrectionist posted:I think I can see where Lord Justice's arguments are coming from - I find the story of series and Rebellion interesting from an individualism vs collectivism point of view, and am not a fan of self-sacrifice being glorified in media myself generally. But I simply don't think the franchise supports any reading of Homura being in the right, at all. Even if you think she should be, or could be, everything from what is pointedly shown and not shown in Madoka's world and in hers, to the art-direction, to the characters themselves, everything says otherwise. Maybe another series or movie will change that, but that's just speculation. I feel you make a good point here with the glorification of self-sacrifice. This is part of the reason why I reject what Madoka did, as it doesn't square with my personal ethics. Even if it was necessary, it still strikes me as remarkedly callous how willing Madoka is to just throw her life in the world away. She's 14 and barely done anything yet, and still she wants to remove herself for some "greater good". This is especially compounded at the end of the Rebellion, where she tries to do the same thing, and this time, for absolutely no reason. She doesn't need to be the Law of Cycles anymore; Homura, being a universal godlike being, can effectively just fix whatever problem Madoka might need to sacrifice herself for. Her whole attempt to destroy herself again was pointless and just goes to show how self-destructive Madoka really is. Which is the problem, because Madoka spends a lot of saying how good and correct that it is, and I'm not entirely sure if that's really the message the creators are going for considering how horrific it is actually is when you think about it. This is why I find the opposite message to be moreso true, as it isn't nearly as horrific as destroying yourself, or wanting to destroy yourself. To me, Madoka is about growing up and moving past that childish idealism based on wish fulfillment. Junko is a very important character here, because she represents this message. She's a fully grown adult woman who's enjoyed success in the business world and provides for her family, and she needed no wishes or super powers to do it. Effectively, Junko is the ideal I feel Madoka is heading towards, although it will be using Homura, not Madoka, to reach that at the end. Dzhay posted:Lord Justice: have you seen Bakemonogatari (and its sequels)? I haven't. I've only heard awful things about SHAFT's other works (the sexualization of minors primarily) which killed any interest I had in checking out those works.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:16
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Regarding the Fate/Zero stuff, it seems strange for you (Lord Justice) to reference it when literally the only connection between it and Madoka is the author, while at the same time pushing for a "death of the author" interpretation of the work. Either you want to take the intentions of the author into account or you don't, you can't really have it both ways.Insurrectionist posted:And that difference may not be 'fair' or whatever, but it is the story that's being told, and it's not in the wrong because of it. I've said before that I think the series is the stronger thematic work with a more coherent message, compared to Rebellion. And that's not a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. Personally I adore Rebellion and vastly prefer Rebellion Homura to episode 12 Homura, but even with my biases I don't think Homura is in the right or justified for what she does at the end of the movie. To me, Madoka's sacrifice being unambiguously right feels like one of the things the series wants us to accept as a universal truth, a ground rule of the Madoka universe. But I'm open to that changing in an eventual new movie or show. Yeah, I have a really difficult time understanding how anyone could think that the series - even after Rebellion - is trying to portray Madoka's decision as anything other than A Good Thing. Like you said, it's obvious for reasons that go beyond the words people say and events in the show/movie; the music, art direction, etc all clearly indicate that Madoka's decision is a morally good one (for fucks sake, there's a montage of girls crying in happiness while pleasant music plays). It seems very clear to me that Homura's problems stem almost entirely from Homura herself, and it's likely that the new movie/series will involve the other characters trying to figure out how to deal with Homura and (more importantly) Homura trying to figure out how to deal with herself.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:22
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Ytlaya posted:Regarding the Fate/Zero stuff, it seems strange for you (Lord Justice) to reference it when literally the only connection between it and Madoka is the author, while at the same time pushing for a "death of the author" interpretation of the work. Either you want to take the intentions of the author into account or you don't, you can't really have it both ways. Why does it need to be a binary, black or white thing? I don't like Fate/Stay Night, so I divorce it from Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero provided some of the genesis for Madoka, so it had some effect on the work when Urobuchi wrote Madoka. It's as simple as that, really.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:27
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trucutru posted:Fool! What have you done? We'll get a LJ analysis of the toothbrush scene. Good
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Feb 9, 2016 19:30
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Shaft is a cool studio w a fine track record so I feel that limiting them to just Madoka does them a disservice
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Feb 9, 2016 19:30
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While Fate/Zero certainly works fine as a standalone work, I'd be hard pressed to say that you can completely divorce it from the rest of Fate/stay night especially considering the wealth of world building and interconnected characters and events. You're kind of intentionally crippling yourself that way just because you don't like the base work and your arguments come off weaker especially against those who know a lot more about the FSN world in general and not just Zero. That's like me saying that I think the original Madoka anime stands fine on its own (and it does) and screw everything else because I hate it
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Feb 9, 2016 19:33
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Lord Justice posted:Why does it need to be a binary, black or white thing? I don't like Fate/Stay Night, so I divorce it from Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero provided some of the genesis for Madoka, so it had some effect on the work when Urobuchi wrote Madoka. It's as simple as that, really. Lmao that you're calling out people for being black and white when your statement re: fate stay night is also black and white. "I don't like it, therefore I won't acknowledge any of it in the spin-off work I like" What didn't you like about my lad shirou, btw.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:35
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I saw the main series of Madoka Magica years ago, and just got around to watching Rebellion this week, and I loved it. The art and music and direction was top-notch, I liked how it used the characters, and the ending seems like a great springing off point for future developments. It's reminded me of how much I love this series. I can vaguely understand why some people had problems with Rebellion and with the direction of Homura's character development, but I thought it was great. I wish I could have gone to see it in a cinema. It also made me really want to make an AMV, so I'm planning to buy the series on DVD, but I don't know which version to get out of the TV series or the first two movies. Could anyone tell me, do the first two movie versions of the series cut out much footage compared to the TV series version?
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Feb 9, 2016 19:37
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Nasu and urobachi are friends and there was a recent anim about the d&d game they play. There will be relation in their work.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:39
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Contrary to popular belief, Urobuchi did not invent sad girls
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Feb 9, 2016 19:40
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Srice posted:Shaft is a cool studio w a fine track record so I feel that limiting them to just Madoka does them a disservice He should just watch Zetsubou Sensei and try to analyze Kafka's motivations.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:40
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The movies contain pretty much all of the tv show but with touched up animation and hella touched up backgrounds
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Feb 9, 2016 19:42
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Compendium posted:While Fate/Zero certainly works fine as a standalone work, I'd be hard pressed to say that you can completely divorce it from the rest of Fate/stay night especially considering the wealth of world building and interconnected characters and events. You're kind of intentionally crippling yourself that way just because you don't like the base work and your arguments come off weaker especially against those who know a lot more about the FSN world in general and not just Zero. I'm aware that parts of Fate/Zero are going to be weaker without the work it comes from. And to be fair, just because I hate Fate/Stay Night doesn't mean I hate the universe itself, I actually really like Type Moon, just not most of the artistic works actually in it. As well, I did attempt to get into Fate/Stay Night. It just didn't work for me. If a person watches Rebellion, hates it, and divorces it from the original series, well, that's fine by me, and also understandable, even if I don't personally agree with it. Namtab posted:Lmao that you're calling out people for being black and white when your statement re: fate stay night is also black and white. "I don't like it, therefore I won't acknowledge any of it in the spin-off work I like" I asked why it needed to be like that. My preferences are my own. I'm not going into Shirou because it's been a while so I'm liable to have forgotten things and this isn't the thread for it. Van Dine posted:I saw the main series of Madoka Magica years ago, and just got around to watching Rebellion this week, and I loved it. The art and music and direction was top-notch, I liked how it used the characters, and the ending seems like a great springing off point for future developments. It's reminded me of how much I love this series. I can vaguely understand why some people had problems with Rebellion and with the direction of Homura's character development, but I thought it was great. I wish I could have gone to see it in a cinema. The first movie, The Beginning Story, does cut out some of the downtime scenes, although I haven't gone through and actually cataloged which ones. The second movie, The Eternal Story, is more or less unchanged, with a couple scene alterations here and there. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 19:42
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Van Dine posted:I saw the main series of Madoka Magica years ago, and just got around to watching Rebellion this week, and I loved it. The art and music and direction was top-notch, I liked how it used the characters, and the ending seems like a great springing off point for future developments. It's reminded me of how much I love this series. I can vaguely understand why some people had problems with Rebellion and with the direction of Homura's character development, but I thought it was great. I wish I could have gone to see it in a cinema. It's really loving good. And Homura rocks. Van Dine posted:It also made me really want to make an AMV, so I'm planning to buy the series on DVD, but I don't know which version to get out of the TV series or the first two movies. Could anyone tell me, do the first two movie versions of the series cut out much footage compared to the TV series version? Get the movies, they don't cut much.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:43
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I'm reminded over and over again how much Fate/Zero's story rules, and how I should give it a try again And then I take one look at it and the hate starts growing in seconds Like Holy poo poo So many little things to hate! And I'm not talking about the script here. Just... somebody shoo Urobuchi over to Shinbo. PLEASE.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:43
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trucutru posted:He should just watch Zetsubou Sensei and try to analyze Kafka's motivations. Dang, that's a show I miss. Shame they never got to go back and animate the manga ending, it sounds wild.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:43
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Torquemadras posted:I'm reminded over and over again how much Fate/Zero's story rules, and how I should give it a try again FZ and other things are what make me believe that Simbo was responsible for Madoka turning out the way it did Since dang, I found everything else Urobuchi has written to be an unwatchable slog
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Feb 9, 2016 19:46
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Lord Justice posted:Why does it need to be a binary, black or white thing? I don't like Fate/Stay Night, so I divorce it from Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero provided some of the genesis for Madoka, so it had some effect on the work when Urobuchi wrote Madoka. It's as simple as that, really. Oh, I'm not talking about Fate/Stay Night at all. I'm talking about the fact that you've mentioned how you're argued for taking a "death of the author" approach when analyzing Madoka/Rebellion, while also referencing Fate/Zero, which is only connected to Madoka by its author. (For the record, I'm completely open to someone explaining why this actually makes sense; it just seems strange to me to say "the intent behind Madoka is unrelated to whether my interpretation is accurate" while referencing another work whose only possible connection to Madoka is author intent.) Regarding F/SN, is your only exposure to it the UBW anime? Because I don't think that UBW was very good as a standalone anime. And the first "arc" of the F/SN visual novel also isn't very good; it doesn't really become good until the second part (UBW), and that unfortuntely requires that you read the first part. Torquemadras posted:I'm reminded over and over again how much Fate/Zero's story rules, and how I should give it a try again What are you referring to? I'm asking this out of curiosity as someone who also didn't like a bunch of random things about F/Z, not as some contrarian thing.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:58
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Fate zero has cool fights and a lot of downtime between fights where people don't stop talking
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Feb 9, 2016 20:06
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Ytlaya posted:Oh, I'm not talking about Fate/Stay Night at all. I'm talking about the fact that you've mentioned how you're argued for taking a "death of the author" approach when analyzing Madoka/Rebellion, while also referencing Fate/Zero, which is only connected to Madoka by its author. (For the record, I'm completely open to someone explaining why this actually makes sense; it just seems strange to me to say "the intent behind Madoka is unrelated to whether my interpretation is accurate" while referencing another work whose only possible connection to Madoka is author intent.) I feel I haven't actually invoked death of the author in terms of Madoka because I feel the Magica Quartet has designed Madoka to be interpreted in different ways and I feel my interpretation is supported by the text as is. See again: Rebellion quoting Nietzsche, the definition of happiness, Madoka dancing The Dying Swan, etc. Effectively, I don't feel it's necessary to invoke death of the author in regards to Madoka, but we'll have to see what the next project does to know for sure. When I quoted Fate/Zero it was really only to note the parallel with the interpretation I found, not to actually support it. I only invoke death of the author in terms of Fate/Zero so I can enjoy it bereft of Fate/Stay Night. I did read the first few days of Fate but gave up because I didn't like the characters. This was further compounded by Unlimited Blade Works. At this point I have zero interest in Fate/Stay Night beyond the setting itself, and I don't really want to force myself to read something I know I'm going to hate reading. It doesn't sound like a pleasant experience, and I'd rather just enjoy Fate/Zero as it is, even if it's not supposed to work like that.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:09
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Namtab posted:Fate zero has cool fights and a lot of downtime between fights where people don't stop talking Nah, the fights are also not cool.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:12
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Saber is a top tier anime wife E: also husband
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Feb 9, 2016 20:13
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Lord Justice posted:Mordaedil, you're completely correct on why I interpret Fate/Zero the way I do. I watched Fate/Zero first without having any real idea what Fate/Stay Night is and really liked what I watched. Then I watched Unlimited Blade Works (well, mostly, I got to episode 24 and stopped, I had no interest in the final episode and episode 24 was one of the most infuriating things I've ever had the displeasure of sitting through) and hated it, Shirou especially. Considering Shirou is the entire focus of Fate/Stay Night, it's impossible for me to read and enjoy it because I just do not like Shirou's character, at all, and I never, ever will. Which effectively leaves me with a quandary, I like Fate/Zero, but hate Fate/Stay Night. So, in order to continue to enjoy and think about Fate/Zero, I divorce the two and just think of Fate/Zero as an independent work, and I feel it works that way. When I first played Fate/Stay Night, there's a bit at the beginning which fakes you out, because it has Rin portrayed as the main character, which is probably why I stuck it out as long as I did and I really disliked Shirou as well, (even if I found that he hated Archer a delightful ironic twist because it is so obvious it hurts)
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Feb 9, 2016 20:17
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Mordaedil posted:When I first played Fate/Stay Night, there's a bit at the beginning which fakes you out, because it has Rin portrayed as the main character, which is probably why I stuck it out as long as I did and I really disliked Shirou as well, (even if I found that he hated Archer a delightful ironic twist because it is so obvious it hurts) Yeah, I'm aware, Unlimited Blade Works has the same thing more or less, although I never got past the Rin part to my memory. Part of the problem was the metric ton of text explaining how everything works. I understand completely why it was there and why it was important, but man, coming from Fate/Zero it was just paragraphs on top of paragraphs of repeated information I already knew, and I wasn't sure what I could skip and what I couldn't. Wasn't very enjoyable, to say the least.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:21
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Ytlaya posted:What are you referring to? I'm asking this out of curiosity as someone who also didn't like a bunch of random things about F/Z, not as some contrarian thing. Ooooooooh boy I'm kinda glad somebody asked. This show was recommended to me because I had just discovered Madoka and went into that short phase of insanity were you're desperate to get your hands on anything to keep it going, somehow. (Which is also how I stumbled across the Monogatari series, which speaks volumes.) And I thought it was strangely underwhelming, but the plot drew me in! I was genuinely fascinated to see where it was going. But over time, I realized how utterly disappointing everything on screen was, compared to where the story was going. I wasn't just disinterested and stopped watching, I was harshly disappointed. I shall elaborate. Scenes look like somebody threw the characters into an empty plane and haphazardly drew environments around them. For instance, the scene where we see the serial killer dude and Caster chain up some children. It's a huge, empty room with three big pipes (???), like pillars. Nothing around them. Nothing they interact with. Is this supposed to be a loving canalization? It's an empty plane! I kept noticing how the characters barely interacted with their environment, as if there were invisible walls around them that kept them to their paths. Why the gently caress is everything so large and empty? Why is everything perfectly rectangular? Why are so many non-battle scenes dudes standing perfectly straight, facing exactly in parallel with walls next to them? Why are the wizards battle that exact setup, except they raise their arms and special effects fly around them? I saw Kara no Kyokai, man, you can't tell me wizard battles in this universe suck THAT MUCH! That continued through many, many scenes: awkward camera, rooms that are empty and make no sense, behaviour that looks like extremely bad acting. Another outstandingly bad section that should've been incredible: priest dude stabs his mentor. It's laughable. Let me keep straight ahead very slowly and then you stab me like that yes that is drama oh man. Or the scene where priest dude is told about the entire battle royale; the two dudes walk circles around him while talking, who the gently caress does that? Imagine how ridiculous this must look to anyone not enslaved by an incompetent cameraman. Look how ridiculous it is when you are enslaved by the cameraman. This, incredibly enough, extends even to the main selling point: the action scenes. We all know the awesome gifs and youtube compilations, so here's where my biggest disappointment sets in. First of all: this is one of the few things were I genuinely think the script SUCKS. The battles feel as if characters constantly make up poo poo. There is no tension because every single retarded made-up rule is broken within seconds, and you wonder what was the point of this?! The battles are constantly broken up by awkward pauses for characters to yammer on - to the point that awesome epic music gets cut off, we get a few seconds of awkward tentacle cutting, AND BACK TO THE EPIC MUSIC, NEVER MIND THAT. Or other examples where action turns ridiculous: priest dude advances on two supposedly badass women! One chains him to a tree, the other one has a gun! Shoot him! Shoot him you gently caress! Nope, better stare at him awkwardly hump a tree and free himself. Why are you staring at magical mullet man, you're supposed to kill him AAAAARGH. It feels like the script didn't know where to put the awesome fighting scenes. Hell, check out the absolutely incredible fight scenes from Madoka in comparison! Notice one thing? THEY DO NOT PAUSE TO TALK. There's not that terribly many action scenes, but when there are, THEY DON'T STOP. It's an insane slugfest of bullets and swords and poo poo until something is dead. Fate/Zero gets ridiculous in its constant rhythm of action scene (keep your gif cam ready!), talking, action scene (this looks great in AMVs!), pointless comment from the outside, action - no wait, someone else arrived and introduced themselves and one aspect of their character (perhaps their blood type?!?!), some talking, and oh wait various characters simply go away. Huh. I feel like the action scenes are one of the biggest selling points of the show, yet they are fragmented, haphazardly strewn about, incompetently cut together and ruined by pacing. It doesn't help that the plot constantly makes up things never mentioned before. OH SO YOU HAVE TIME ACCELERATION MAGIC? HOW CONVENIENT. Having ranted about that at length: I really liked the character's banter. It's genuinely fascinating to hear former kings philosophize over what a king really should be. Blowing up a building to catch a smug wizard is hilarious and badass, and forcing said wizard to make his warrior suicide before murdering him through a technicality is ice-cold AND badass. I felt strangely compelled to see priest dude's contemplation of evilness. It's great stuff. Just... ruined. Oh, and here's my favorite little annoying detail: Archer's armour clanking around. It only does it occasionally, as if to call attention to a pause in dialogue. It basically becomes awkward punctuation. Somehow, that annoyed me to no end. That's my summary for Fate/Zero: awkward. Didn't make it past the episode directly after the flashback with the bees. Awkward.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:25
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Torquemadras posted:Awkward. You know what's funny, even though I like F/Z I basically have the same hang-ups concerning the action. For the UBW anime, the fight scenes were fun, but there were people in the threads for both seasons complaining that the fight scenes weren't as good as F/Z. Weirdos.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:29
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Much as I hated Unlimited Blade Works in sum, I will say that the fight scenes were very well done and I consider them to be some of the best in the industry, especially in terms of animation and crucially, sound design. ufoTable are masters of sound design, everything has weight and punch, especially when Saber and Berserker are smashing each other around. Also, it's really hard to hate this: Best part of Unlimited Blade Works, personally. Anyway, Torquemadras, I feel your criticism is pretty fair, and the scene construction in Fate/Zero is pretty lacking. With that said, Fate/Zero doesn't break rules in fights, everything is well established within the setting and stays that way. Kiritsugu has his Time Manipulation, gunplay, and Origin Bullets, and that doesn't change. Kirei uses Black Keys, Baji Quan, etc. Everyone has their set abilities already, and generally they're introduced in a fight, like Kiritsugu's stuff coming up in his fight with Kayneth. But once they're established, nothing much is really added to them. Since you didn't get this far, watch the Kiritsugu vs. Kirei fight and you'll see what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSgXOZKSt20.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:43
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hosed up how much Lord justice hates saber
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Feb 9, 2016 20:49
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Torquemadras posted:[spoiler]Scenes look like somebody threw the characters into an empty plane and haphazardly drew environments around them. For instance, the scene where we see the serial killer dude and Caster chain up some children. It's a huge, empty room with three big pipes (???), like pillars. Nothing around them. Nothing they interact with. Is this supposed to be a loving canalization? It's an empty plane! I kept noticing how the characters barely interacted with their environment, as if there were invisible walls around them that kept them to their paths. Why the gently caress is everything so large and empty? Why is everything perfectly rectangular? Why are so many non-battle scenes dudes standing perfectly straight, facing exactly in parallel with walls next to them? This, but for most anime instead
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Feb 9, 2016 20:53
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Namtab posted:hosed up how much Lord justice hates saber Yeah, but to be fair, Saber is kind of an empty glass jar.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:55
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Compendium posted:You know what's funny, even though I like F/Z I basically have the same hang-ups concerning the action. For the UBW anime, the fight scenes were fun, but there were people in the threads for both seasons complaining that the fight scenes weren't as good as F/Z. My complaints about the action aren't nearly as specific and elaborate as Torquemadras's, but I just thought they didn't look very cool. This is in contrast to the fights in UBW which, while having some of the dumb elements Torquemadras mentioned, at least look really cool and strongly convey the fact that these guys are super badass. This is in contrast to something like the Saber/Lancer fight in F/Z, which I thought was super lame and made Saber look really weak (which makes no sense, given that she's supposed to be one of the most badass spirits and actually had a good source of mana). Most of it looked like a fight between two regular (very talkative) humans. I also feel like they made Saber have a hard time in almost all her fights just to create tension, but it didn't really make sense given what we know about the characters and setting.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:56
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Madoka has good animation
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Feb 9, 2016 20:59
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Mordaedil posted:Yeah, but to be fair, Saber is kind of an empty glass jar. Actually, she's the best
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Feb 9, 2016 20:59
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Strange way to spell Rin, that. 
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Feb 9, 2016 21:01
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Lord Justice posted:Much as I hated Unlimited Blade Works in sum, I will say that the fight scenes were very well done and I consider them to be some of the best in the industry, especially in terms of animation and crucially, sound design. ufoTable are masters of sound design, everything has weight and punch, especially when Saber and Berserker are smashing each other around. Also, it's really hard to hate this:  Never saw UBW. This looks badass, true, but I also thought the same of F/Z fight scenes, before I actually watched them in the episode... Who knows.quote:Anyway, Torquemadras, I feel your criticism is pretty fair, and the scene construction in Fate/Zero is pretty lacking. With that said, Fate/Zero doesn't break rules in fights, everything is well established within the setting and stays that way. Kiritsugu has his Time Manipulation, gunplay, and Origin Bullets, and that doesn't change. Kirei uses Black Keys, Baji Quan, etc. Everyone has their set abilities already, and generally they're introduced in a fight, like Kiritsugu's stuff coming up in his fight with Kayneth. But once they're established, nothing much is really added to them. Since you didn't get this far, watch the Kiritsugu vs. Kirei fight and you'll see what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSgXOZKSt20. Will check that out, because that really seems to be another "big" fight everybody loves (and that Youtube persistently tried to get me to watch for a while). Having said that: the rules felt extremely arbritrary when they pop up out of nowhere. I know jack poo poo about the setting, and I imagine most viewers do as well. Don't establish abilities in the middle of battle to make someone get out of a tricky situation. That looks like an asspull, no matter what the background material says, which nobody should have to read. Another ridiculous stunt: "Hey Lancer! You can walk in wind, right?!" "Yeah, conveniently I can!" "SUPER CONVENIENTLY I have wind magic!" "BUT OF COURSE" This is bad. It's, to borrow someone else's words, Calvinball. I don't like it and it should've been set up better. Even totally badass stuff falls flat like that. You might have a point that things stay consistent, I just think the abilities are established in a pretty bad way. To draw another comparison to Madoka (because gently caress IT THIS IS THE MADOKA THREAD): Homura's ability is pretty much, to me, the most masterful mysterious ability reveal I've ever seen in anime, period. Not even JoJo with its bizarre and incredibly unique superpowers beats that. And it has nine episodes of setup. Much, much better than "By the way, I have this ability" --> proceeds to immediately resolve the situation with said ability. I get that the handling of the superpowers is much different due to the source material and setting, but still - one annoys me to no end and reappears all the time, the other is unparalleled. (Maybe. I bet someone knows other or even better ingenious reveals like that.) Jostiband posted:This, but for most anime instead [CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT] Most anime is bad [/CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT] Compendium posted:Madoka has good animation Hell yeah
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Feb 9, 2016 21:23
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Compendium posted:Madoka has good animation Shaft is real cool at making the most out of their time and money in general, I've been following them on and off since the Zetsubou Sensei days and it's amazing to see how far their style has evolved. They frequently take shortcuts but they're really smart about how they take them so it's rarely noticed unless you're paying close attention.
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Feb 9, 2016 21:45
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| # ? May 18, 2024 13:05 |
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To move back to madoka, and potentially a point that I made about the Lord justice reviews I have a question. The analysis is heavily predicated on the idea that, in preserving but reforming the magic girl system madoka was wrong/a bad person. Given the information available to madoka at the time what wish should she have made?
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Feb 9, 2016 21:48
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