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Lightning Lord posted:To tell the truth though my investment in this argument is more about the differences between DC and Marvel's superhero comics - which while not negligible, are deeply overstated.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:49
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Holy poo poo, the artist Wayne England just died.MadScientistWorking posted:Considering the fact that DC's been riding the nostalgia train incredibly hard lately despite the fact that said nostalgia is something no one wants kind of shoots a massive hole in your argument. The New 52 is pretty much over. Anyway, I'm talking about longterm trends. That "I'm a Marvel I'm a DC" crap is my nerd bugbear.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:54
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The thing that moths took away from this is "Superman learns that it's ok to take life".  at the condescension here.quote:This just isn't true. Superman is not Utopian in the Golden Age. He is a bully who bullies other bullies. 
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Feb 9, 2016 19:58
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Any differences between Marvel and DC on a company-wide scale disappeared by the end of the 1970s, and I would argue that they disappeared by 1972 at the latest.
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Feb 9, 2016 19:59
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The thing that moths took away from this is "Superman learns that it's ok to take life". It's a hard lesson for him, but ultimately it's the one he learns. The point is that Superman (culturally) is above compromise and generally an absolute force for good. Snyder uses the climax of the film to show that even Superman's ethics can be compromised and he can be forced into brutality and savage violence. Nobody goes to a Superman movie hoping to see that even Superman must succumb to this lovely world.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:03
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moths posted:It's a hard lesson for him, but ultimately it's the one he learns. Imprisoning someone, or brainwashing them, is committing savage violence and brutality. So is permanently disabling them. So, the only way for Superman, given the conditions of the film, to defeat Zod, is with either violence or coincidence, and making a movie where Superman is useless and all that matters is chance in this world is actually worse ideologically.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:06
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moths posted:Nobody goes to a Superman movie hoping to see that even Superman must succumb to this lovely world. That's not true. Man of Steel is a broadly popular movie. Also, in response to your points, I'll just let a previous post from CineD speak for itself: Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He's just a guy who views Superman as a folk-hero projection of absolute good, magnanimous use of absolute power. Lots of people do that, and it's ok.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:07
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Which is essentially why those were the wrong conditions to present in a Superman film. A good Superman story challenges his morality but gives him an opportunity to do "good" in an unexpected way. Instead, Zod was the uncompromising character who would not bend. moths fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 20:08
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moths posted:Which is essentially why those were the wrong conditions to present in a Superman film. OK, so now that we've disallowed Zod, Luthor, Darkseid, Brainiac, Mongul, prepare yourself to have all the superman films be about the Parasite and the Prankster. Because those five villains are also people Superman can't actually defeat by converting them to his cause through reason or moral inspiration.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:10
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"Superman is supposed to be good/idealistic/whatever" makes as much sense to me as "worker placement games are supposed to be about farming." I liked Man of Steel because the one message I got from it very clearly is that he is an Actual Alien caught between his "actual people" and his "adopted people," neither of whom welcomes the hand he extends in peace. What do you do when you can do a lot of (what you see as) good, and those who you'd most want to help fear, mistrust, or outright try to murder you? That was enough to carry the movie for me. It doesn't matter to me that he was not like his 1940s self or his 1980s self.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:12
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Honestly Captain America is a better Superman at this point. E: Yes. moths fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 20:14
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moths posted:Honestly Captain America is a better Superman at this point. Cinematically?
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Feb 9, 2016 20:15
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Asimo posted:Yeah but that's, you know, the 1930's. It's a pretty measured response compared to the other action comics of the era. I mean this is a time when Batman was dropping crooks left and right. You're moving the goalposts. You said Superman was fundamentally a Utopian character, even from his inception in the Golden Age. We have Utopian fiction from the 30s. The people in it don't act like Superman. Superman has never concerned himself with creating a Utopia. He was a hardcore leftist that tore down tenements and stood up for the powerless. Later, he became a tool for the status quo and caught bad guys. He also had weird adventures on other planets and beat world-destroying threats. At no point did he attempt to create a utopia. In fact, when Superman starts to rule/challenge the status quo - even in a positive manner - it's universally portrayed as a bad thing. moths posted:Which is essentially why those were the wrong conditions to present in a Superman film. This isn't how criticism works.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:15
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Isn't a huge part of Man of Steel supposed to be to set up the conflict of Batman v Superman? Everyone gave the movie a bunch of poo poo for showing billions of dollars in property damage and the over the top loss of life from it all, but isn't all of that supposed to explain why Batman gets involved to start with?
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Feb 9, 2016 20:16
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moths posted:E: Yes. This is a pretty damning indictment of the cinematic Captain America, bluntly.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:19
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Effectronica posted:This is a pretty damning indictment of the cinematic Captain America, bluntly. That he's a better Superman character than Zach Snyder's Superman? Sorry dude, The Tick is a better Superman than Zach Snyder's Superman.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:26
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moths posted:It's a hard lesson for him, but ultimately it's the one he learns. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:You're moving the goalposts. You said Superman was fundamentally a Utopian character, even from his inception in the Golden Age.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:31
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moths posted:That he's a better Superman character than Zach Snyder's Superman? The problem is that your T-Shirt Superman is not a good thing to resemble, from my point of view.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:31
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Oh, bloody hell, thought this was the CineD comic book movie thread and not the TG Industry Thread. Can y'all please take it there where they have this conversation like biweekly anyway? I want to read and talk more about this dead gay industry.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:31
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Superman has never concerned himself with creating a Utopia. He was a hardcore leftist that tore down tenements and stood up for the powerless.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:33
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I think Man of Steel is a bad movie, largely because it's a film where Superman strikes a Christ pose, but I can see a case made for the Zod Incident being why Superman never kills in this particular universe.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's not true. Man of Steel is a broadly popular movie. Just to be clear you don't come off looking that great in that thread.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:39
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I've never liked superman precisely because my perception of him, which is based on the old black and white series, plus the Christopher Reeves films, plus maybe a handful of comic books during the 1980s, is that the character was really badly written. He has all these abilities and half the times he forgets them. The writers make up an ability so he can always win every time, when it's convenient for him to do it. His only genuine dilemma seems to revolve around his relationship with Lois Lane, in which the writers seem to want to portray him as being the good guy even though he's constantly lying to her. Mostly though he seemed like the ultimate Mary Sue character. Of course, I'm aware of tons of Superman content that ran opposite to that impression. I just don't know the character in his modern incarnation well enough to say if the Man of Steel film got him "right" or "wrong." I do know that I saw the movie in a hotel in Providence and thought it was extremely bad, but maybe I don't have the Cinema Discussio chops to explain exactly why. Maybe it was just a visceral reaction to what I see as a running theme of "grittification" of superheroes? Batman is always the guy who has the internal struggle, a vigilante who does what he thinks is necessary. Maybe I don't like a Superman who seems to be following a similar path? Maybe not every hero should have this dark struggle? I dunno, it's silly of me to think that, when the reason I didn't like Superman in the first place is because I find him to be an unrealistic, always-on-the-moral-high-ground jesus figure, literally sent to earth to save us except us sinners just aren't good enough to be saved. Or something. I imagine if you liked Man of Steel, its annoying to see it dismissed by people who didn't like it for reasons you find to be trivial or which your knowledge of the franchise tells you are just outright wrong. But maybe most of us who didn't like the film just don't know, or care that much, about the franchise, and we're just trying to figure out why exactly we didn't like the film. One thing I'm pretty sure of though is that people who didn't like the film don't deserve to have scorn heaped upon them just because they didn't like the film. If my poorly-thought-out reasoning is flawed, OK... but you're not going to convince me that when I saw the movie a year ago, I actually did like it, and am just confused about my own opinion.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:40
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Mecha Gojira posted:I want to read and talk more about this dead gay industry.  Leperflesh posted:I've never liked superman precisely because my perception of him (...) is that the character was really badly written. Asimo fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 20:40
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We could talk about TG movies. Man, how hype is everybody for Monopoly? I mean, on a scale from "hype" to "electric"?
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Feb 9, 2016 20:42
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Lightning Lord posted:Just to be clear you don't come off looking that great in that thread. Illusion is inferior to being.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:42
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Man, how hype is everybody for Monopoly? I mean, on a scale from "hype" to "electric"? 
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Feb 9, 2016 20:44
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Alien Rope Burn posted:We could talk about TG movies. Battleship was fine- not good, but fine. If it ends up with being an amazing crypto-satire of the property bubble, arguing along the same lines as The Big Short, I'll buy a physical copy.
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Feb 9, 2016 20:46
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I don't think Monopoly is still on, or what I should say, it's probably back in production hell since while Ridley Scott was attached to it, it doesn't seem to be on his immediate plate. After, he has more Alien prequels to make. I wonder how much hope Hasbro has for the D&D movie. While Transformers still makes crazy international money four movies in, Battleship flopped and they've probably dropped GI Joe at least for the moment.
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Feb 9, 2016 21:05
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Battleship is 100% worth a watch because it's like they had two directors make two completely, diametrically opposite films about the same thing and just cut them together. It's bad, but it's also amazing.
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Feb 9, 2016 21:10
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Can we just, like, put the next game designer who describes their RPG in its ad copy based on how close it is to D&D (Unlike other games in mine, you're not defined by class or level! NO ALIGNMENT etc, etc, you know the drill) in some sort of penalty box? Spray them with water like a misbehaving cat? New enthusiasts who've not read anything but D&D/Pathfinder ever get a pass but if you've got more than one publishing credit under your belt, no excuses. Battleship's two movies were "Stealth Remake of ID4" and "What if a crew full of screwups actually screwed up and ruined a first contact situation" right?
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Feb 9, 2016 21:12
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Asimo posted:Clue was the superior TG film. That's not fair, though. Every other TG film is a steaming pile.
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Feb 9, 2016 21:17
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In actual TG industry discussions: Does anyone here have any experience fulfilling non-book physical rewards for Kickstarters? A friend of mine is planning a Kickstarter for his RPG, Red Markets, and some potential backers would like physical rewards other than the book such as: Custom dice (red and black d10s specifically - sharp-edged if possible) Custom playmats - the game involves keep tracking of resources, so a playmat with counters would be very useful to keep track of item charges etc - it would look kind of like this  GM Screen (I know DrivethruRPG has a POD GM Screen thing but are there other options?) T-shirts (I know there are POD t-shirt makers but which ones do you recommend and is it possible to make money on them - seems like there is no profit margin)
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Feb 9, 2016 21:17
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Was Mutant Chronicles any good? I can't bring myself to watch it. E: Two movies? Holy crap. moths fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 21:18
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The two movies were "generic gung-ho pro-American-military action film about evil invading alien" and "film about a crew of alien scientists who tragically crash-land on Earth and are instantly attacked by the bloodthirsty locals, whereupon their attempts at phoning home to get rescued result in the locals ruthlessly exterminating them."
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Feb 9, 2016 21:20
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Battleship is 100% worth a watch because it's like they had two directors make two completely, diametrically opposite films about the same thing and just cut them together. It's bad, but it's also amazing. So like a Godfrey Ho film?
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Feb 9, 2016 22:19
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Stop responding to IZ posters already.unseenlibrarian posted:Can we just, like, put the next game designer who describes their RPG in its ad copy based on how close it is to D&D (Unlike other games in mine, you're not defined by class or level! NO ALIGNMENT etc, etc, you know the drill) in some sort of penalty box? Spray them with water like a misbehaving cat? New enthusiasts who've not read anything but D&D/Pathfinder ever get a pass but if you've got more than one publishing credit under your belt, no excuses. I mean, this is sorta what you get with any indie industry. People talk up indie video games all the time but until the somewhat recent boom, 90% of those were things like "tetris but with some pirate decorations" or "bejeweled but with different power-ups." The truth of the matter is that most people are not all that creative or ambitious. The only real difference is that ttgs have such a low bar of entry and a widespread culture of it that you see it more often. That's not even getting into the fact that, for enough people, D&D IS the ttg market, the start and end of it. It's really, really easy to never really learn about or get into non-D&D games. The hobby just isn't big enough to have a robust enough indie scene that it becomes impossible not to notice.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:20
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What we need, and I'm not being facetious, is a Netflix for RPGs. A way for the average person to get to the back-bench where some interesting stuff is.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:What we need, and I'm not being facetious, is a Netflix for RPGs. A way for the average person to get to the back-bench where some interesting stuff is. Unless you're also going to stream a quartet of semi-reasonable humans to spend 2 to 3 hours weekly with, you're describing the world's least laudable library.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:27
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On the other hand, if John Wick is Dr. Doom... "And Orkworld would have changed gaming, if it wasn't for that fool Wizards!" Guy has some hangups.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:28
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Gerund posted:Unless you're also going to stream a quartet of semi-reasonable humans to spend 2 to 3 hours weekly with, you're describing the world's least laudable library. Oh I know. The problem is a large chunk of the hobby is committed to one system come hell or high water. I mean, look at how bad Warhammer had to get before people started looking for alternatives. Crazy.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:29
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