|
I think ponderous debuff makes kinda sense. Maybe it should protect you from being slowed/ slow dudes that hit you?
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 23:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 10:03 |
|
|
Ozo working like rmsl and having a chance to end every time you take fire damage would be rad
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
Imo the ponderous change just makes Oz more annoying, because now you have a reason to sit and wait for it to wear off every time you finish a fight when using it. I still think "the annoyance of having to constantly recast it" is overblown, but I don't go out of my way to annoy myself by imitating the HOM. A version of Oz that has an infinite duration, but fire damage has a chance vs power to damage your armour. The armour regenerates after a while but if you drop to 0 it gets dispelled and you get some cold-flavoured debuff. Give people the option to turn it off (and still get hit by the debuff to thwart that HOM) so they can choose to run corpse embrace or go into Gehenna or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
PleasingFungus posted:Sorry, I should back up. Can you explain how the slot system would work in more detail? I'm assuming it's not "exactly the same as right now, except all buffs conflict with all other buffs"? You'd just cast your aura of choice and it would work in perpetuity until you replaced it with another or something dispelled it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
Equipable aura items that degrade in effectiveness over time (or just last x number of turns before burning out), but can provide 1-3 different weak effects or (or have 1 effect 2 times to make it strong). Possible auras include god effect auras at low piety versions, Ozo's armor, repel missiles, etc. Probably some other cool ones you could add.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2016 23:59
|
|
|
Like the Amulet of Air {Inacc, rElec, EV+5, rMsl, +Fly}, or unlike it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 00:56
|
|
|
I'd just like to suggest that brilliance pots give temporary clarity, because sometimes quaffing a cure pot will just make Sigmund confuse you again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:17
|
|
|
Wretched stars are this game's Poison Headcrabs. God those things scare the crap out of me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:26
|
|
|
Really? Whenever I see one it's "oh, just a monster that doesn't give real mutations". I just sorta tab through them and then the resulting mutations will go away too quickly for me to really feel their effects.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:32
|
|
|
Stupid newbie question; I don't have rPois or a weapon upgrade, Lair seems like a bad idea, should I carefully do Orc first in hopes of upgrades on both points, go deeper in dungeon?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:39
|
|
|
Orv posted:Stupid newbie question; I don't have rPois or a weapon upgrade, Lair seems like a bad idea, should I carefully do Orc first in hopes of upgrades on both points, go deeper in dungeon?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:44
|
|
|
He says, as I run into a bee hive. Doing it though, thanks. E: Lair erry day. 
Orv fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:54
|
|
|
The bee hive vault can spawn pretty much anywhere in the early game. VVV In trunk Orc got changed so that all the orcs are at least warriors or above so I don't think going there early is a good idea anymore
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:55
|
|
|
Doing bits of Orc because Lair seems unfriendly isn't a bad idea (just don't get splattered by a stone giant) but a lack of rPois by itself shouldn't be that bad. Just be more careful around black mambas, which you should already be afraid of. e: Like, there's this weird difficulty curve because conventional wisdom says always do lair to completion first, even though it's as dangerous or more so than Orc a lot of the time. Don't be afraid to do Orc earlier, just be careful about it. Internet Kraken posted:The bee hive vault can spawn pretty much anywhere in the early game. Oh yeah, that. I guess never mind, Orc is extra weird now. Darox fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Feb 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:55
|
|
|
I'm on .17 for this game, so that would be less a problem, but I'm doing Lair at least to 7 for now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 01:59
|
|
|
 Phase Shift. Keep killing the buffs so I never have to feel bad about not casting them again 
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 02:01
|
|
|
Phase shift is a spell that I've memorized like 20 times and actually used maybe twice, so again I am not too bothered
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
I on the other had memorized and casted it a lot since it was a very useful spell for hybrids in heavier armour, providing a flat EV bonus regardless of your encumbrance. That was pretty useful on a lot of characters. Not enjoying this mindless gutting of my preferred playstyle with zero improvements, other than the buff to song of slaying 
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 02:45
|
|
|
RIP Phase Shift, the spell that was basically the Ring of Shaolin except it took 5 MP rather than a ring slot. Diesel status is going to be quite a bit harder to reach without it. In other news, I won an OgAs with the title of Skullcrusher that, for obvious reasons, was using Skullcrusher for a weapon. I was probably better off using the +9 vampiric GSC, but goddamnit SKULLCRUSHER. Not to mention smashing enemies over the head 5 times in the time most of them would take to move thanks to Okawaru's Finesse was hilarious and ridiculous. Also fun: hitting an ancient lich ONCE with Undeadhunter and killing it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 02:52
|
|
|
the Orb of Zot posted:RIP Phase Shift, the spell that was basically the Ring of Shaolin except it took 5 MP rather than a ring slot. Diesel status is going to be quite a bit harder to reach without it. Skullcrusher owns bones, literally and figuratively. I think it's actually better for most things than a fatty +9 GSC unless it has a really good brand or you're fighting one really strong dude. Most chaff monsters you hit with the Skullcrusher will die in one hit anyway, so the extra damage of a GSC isn't really needed, and it swings almost twice as fast so you don't waste turns. +7 str also helps a lot if you're chucking rocks at dudes (you should be chucking rocks at dudes)
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 03:06
|
|
|
It's nice to come back from an extended break with a good run. VSBe and I looted a cloak of invisibility off of Maurice on like D:6 
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 07:16
|
|
|
Floodkiller posted:
Even Ozoarmor will either keep being used all the time or no longer be used at all. And if it's still good enough to be used, all the change accomplished was player annoyance. It's really hard to make a truly situational buff, especially when most players' reactions will be "why should I bother investing in this if it's only occasionally useful?". If the devs are truly concerned about 'the annoyance of constantly recasting buffs', they honestly need to make them all like r/dmsl - have them wear off with attacks instead of over time. Bump up their spell levels and/or weaken their effects to balance it out, done. It'd be a hell of a lot easier and saner than playing a futile game of whack-a-mole with 'good' and 'bad' buffs. IronicDongz posted:Phase shift is a spell that I've memorized like 20 times and actually used maybe twice, so again I am not too bothered
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 08:03
|
|
|
quote:The iron shot misses the golden dragon. The iron shot hits the orb of fire. You destroy the orb of fire! Just look at that beautiful miss.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 09:15
|
|
|
For buff spells, I think "always on with tradeoffs" is much better than "temporary with tradeoffs". The issues I can see are: assuming the player can toggle them, choosing the wrong cons for these buffs could result in swapping buffs on and off much like rings (and swapping behavior is being cut down as it is), and while it would be regulated by MP, that still sounds pretty drat annoying to do. On the flipside, if you *can't* turn them off at will (unless through magic unraveling or potion of cancellation), then the player might "scum" an enemy that can cause the buff to wear off which just sounds silly. I think it'd be fair and not too annoying if "always on" buffs were tied to contamination by lowering the amount required before you go into yellow, but I have no idea how it'd work in practice or if there's a good way for the player to manage his "max contam hp" with the current UI. edit: these wouldn't have any other cons other than the contam thing, of course apple fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Feb 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 09:33
|
|
|
Am I in danger of rank 2/3 miscast effects if I'm casting a rank 5 spell with a yellow failure rate? I can't find formulas anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 11:59
|
|
|
  e:  e2: 
Philip Rivers fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Feb 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 12:28
|
|
|
One neat thing that phase shift does is help when you get petrified/paralysed/tree'd. When that happens your ev gets knocked down to 2, but phase shift goes on top of that and brings you up to 10, which is a pretty huge shift. I only had one character who found the spell early and had translocations investment to actually take advantage of that vs basilisks, but it was a thing. apple posted:I think it'd be fair and not too annoying if "always on" buffs were tied to contamination by lowering the amount required before you go into yellow, but I have no idea how it'd work in practice or if there's a good way for the player to manage his "max contam hp" with the current UI. edit: these wouldn't have any other cons other than the contam thing, of course Please no, keep the contam away. I don't want an unlucky couple of grey 1% miscasts on high level spells to suddenly give me yellow contam and malmut because I had the gall to use my air magic experience to run deflect missiles. The border between "harmless" and "serious problem" contam is already fuzzy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
Phase shift was a good spell. I hated the way most buff spells worked and never played where I constantly kept up stone skin or ozo's, but I'd cast phase shift before a tough fight on a hybrid. Why not make the temporary buff spells be more powerful but have a long cooldown? Then they'd work as designed, to be a situational tactical choice. Like the elemental evokers. Nobody rests after using an evoker to get the charge back, but if you're using them, you keep a couple of them on hand to cycle through in key situations. Buff spells could work the same way. Make them last long enough that they would stay up through a branch end fight or through a portal vault without a lot of resting, have them provide protection and maybe a resist so they're decently powerful, and then you have to wait a bunch of turns before you could cast it again. So if you see an ice cave, you cast ozo's which gives you AC and rC+, and if you hurry through you can make it to the end without it melting, but you basically can't keep it up all the time unless you want to starve.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 13:34
|
|
|
Why not have it so always-on buffs just temporarily lower your max MP? Like you have 30 max MP and you put up rMsl and now your MP is 28 (30) until you take it off?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 14:16
|
|
|
BigFactory, one big reason no one rests to recharge evocables is that their recharge is experience-based.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 14:29
|
|
|
My line of thought is that the only good buff spells are the Transmutations, because they all actually have downsides attached to them. I don't think that changing them to a toggle on/off would change much for them (recasting the spell takes 1 turn to transform back, casting a different form takes 2 turns to avoid abusing appendage to quick cancel a form). Most of these other buffs have the problem of you always wanting them up if you are at all playing optimally. This includes rMsl and dMsl, which only hide the problem of how binary it is to want to use them through convenience. Contamination isn't a good balance mechanic, because then every buff is outclassed by Haste, and you just spend the extra time to rest it off when you do use it (same with increasing the 'cooldown' of the spell). Reducing max MP also doesn't solve the problem, unless it reduces it by antimagic level of loss (and that probably still won't matter for primarily melee characters). I think buff spells are better removed, and maybe reintroduced as armor or weapon egos/unrandarts, like a robe of Ozo's or something. The alternative is seeing buffs receive massive downsides for recasting/refreshing so that they aren't an always on decision, and you can already see what the response to that kind of nerf is with current Ozo's. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Feb 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 14:35
|
|
|
Philip Rivers posted:Why not have it so always-on buffs just temporarily lower your max MP? Like you have 30 max MP and you put up rMsl and now your MP is 28 (30) until you take it off?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 14:35
|
|
|
kaschei posted:I think the biggest reason is that this has essentially no cost to hybrids but makes trouble for more dedicated wizards, when it should really be the other way around. Not even wizards IMO, the current system allows characters to reach triple digits in MP, you'd just have to find the appropriate +MP items to compensate.. so the cost is essentially "is this +MP item worth it over whatever else I have?"
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 15:04
|
|
|
Floodkiller posted:Most of these other buffs have the problem of you always wanting them up if you are at all playing optimally. This includes rMsl and dMsl, which only hide the problem of how binary it is to want to use them through convenience. I mean this is true, but one of the neat things about those spell buffs is that you can't always have them, because they need mana and spell slots and most importantly, experience invested in the relevant skills. Your given minotaur fighter wants to be running haste and deflect and phase shift and etc, but there's no way he's going to get even one of them up before his first rune without making ridiculous sacrifices. Meanwhile a spriggian with their high translocation apt and probably robes armour can use phase shift if they make the investment. That's the strategic part of Oz that people don't mention; to run Oz you need light armour and an investment in the ice & charms schools. If I have a problem with buff spells it's using them at very low power. Repel missiles is more troublesome than Deflect for this reason. Anyone can get repel up and you always should because it'll last till your next fight and even if your power sucks there is a slim chance it'll stop a missile before expiring. Deflect missiles is level 6 so you can't throw that on without some investment (or fistfuls of Wiz and a brilliance potion I guess) so you need to make a decision. It should dispel when you change armour though, I endorse death to the HOM whenever it doesn't hurt regular players. Basically buffs are better if you can't cast them with little/no investment, or they are low level but become obsolete later. I haven't seen anyone complain about shroud, even though it's like stoneskin or etc, because it's so low impact once you're into lair or beyond. It mostly just makes sure Skalds don't fall over dead every time they meet an adder.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 15:08
|
|
|
kaschei posted:BigFactory, one big reason no one rests to recharge evocables is that their recharge is experience-based. So why not make buffs work in the same way? They don't dispel with time, rather in a similar way to rmsl/dmsl ozo's with fire damage, but after the buff has broken, you need to kill a certain number of monsters or gain a certain amount of experience to restore it. I read BigFactory's post, thought of the same response as you made, felt surprised that no one had ever proposed an XP based buff cooldown, then had to talk on the phone for a while so I couldn't reply. Darox posted:Basically buffs are better if you can't cast them with little/no investment, or they are low level but become obsolete later. I haven't seen anyone complain about shroud, even though it's like stoneskin or etc, because it's so low impact once you're into lair or beyond. It mostly just makes sure Skalds don't fall over dead every time they meet an adder. I agree with your whole post. Except for this one point. I hate shroud, I find it one of the most annoying buffs, because it doesn't make any significant strategic changes in the game and the tactical cost of using it is mere annoyance. It is an important spell for warpers and skalds, but it's also one of the buffs I wouldn't be sad to see gone, as long as some solution were found to make those two very weak backgrounds not become even weaker.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 15:19
|
|
|
BigFactory posted:Phase shift was a good spell. I hated the way most buff spells worked and never played where I constantly kept up stone skin or ozo's, but I'd cast phase shift before a tough fight on a hybrid. The game doesn't need more incentives to press 5. That said, I like the idea of cooldowns, but they should be experience gated like the aforementioned elemental evokers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 15:30
|
|
|
ThermosAquaticus posted:The game doesn't need more incentives to press 5. That said, I like the idea of cooldowns, but they should be experience gated like the aforementioned elemental evokers. Yeah, I didn't realize evokers worked that way, but it's an even better solution. Pretend I said something smart instead of something dumb. Kinda on topic, but has natural regen been gimped in trunk? It seems like it takes way longer to heal up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 15:39
|
|
|
Internet Kraken posted:
Why is no one talking about this?? it's an insane change! Orc just got way more difficult and is no longer the obvious choice for an early second branch. Does this mean the odds of encountering knights and warlords and sorcerers just increased dramatically too?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 16:10
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:Why is no one talking about this?? it's an insane change! Orc just got way more difficult and is no longer the obvious choice for an early second branch. It happened last year, so if you haven't noticed it didn't make that much of a difference. (December 12, specifically.) As I recall, though plain orcs don't get chosen for generation, they still do generate as escorts to other orcs - unless I'm misremembering real badly? I haven't actually played much since the last tournament.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 16:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 10:03 |
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:Why is no one talking about this?? it's an insane change! Orc just got way more difficult and is no longer the obvious choice for an early second branch. Plain orcs can still generate as part of a band for bigger orcs, but not as packs on their own. I don't notice the difference past occasionally not having to tab through 25 plain orcs when going down a staircase. The bigger thing is that making the mines two levels long basically cuts Orc down to the ending vault in practice.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2016 16:25
|
|