Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

Mortimer Knag: Nov 23, 2007

FulsomFrank posted:

Why is no one talking about this?? it's an insane change! Orc just got way more difficult and is no longer the obvious choice for an early second branch.

Does this mean the odds of encountering knights and warlords and sorcerers just increased dramatically too?

It's also only 2 floors now, so yes.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:25

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 01:51

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Prism posted:

It happened last year, so if you haven't noticed it didn't make that much of a difference. (December 12, specifically.)

As I recall, though plain orcs don't get chosen for generation, they still do generate as escorts to other orcs - unless I'm misremembering real badly? I haven't actually played much since the last tournament.

I need to update/play more

Still think it's scary, considering how safe Orc was for the most part for most characters and now there's way more risk considering the various nasty things that non-Warrior types can get up to.

I like it :getin:

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:26

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

Darox posted:

That's the strategic part of Oz that people don't mention; to run Oz you need light armour and an investment in the ice & charms schools.

Sorry to respond twice to the same post. Actually, I'm pretty sure Pleasing Fungus has brought up this very point several times here. I've also mentioned it, perhaps rather obliquely, as well. I don't think all the devs are on a major "buffs as a concept in every possible iteration suck" kick, and the buffs that have been eliminated are undeniable the most offensive ones, even if I agree with what other people have posted when they say that perhaps this is not an effective, long-term solution to the perceived problem.

I never do orc before lair just because of habit -- I practically never die in lair anyway at this point and I know just what I need to do to complete it anyway. But my impression of this change is that it's made orc better. I was pretty annoyed in my last run that an orc warlord was within spitting distance of the orc 1 staircase, but I managed to dodge him and finish orc 2, then dodge him again on the way out. Perhaps orc 1 should be adjusted somewhat, but orc is still quite doable after lair even on a weak character.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:27

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

It seems like the actual spawn rate of stronger orcs is higher than before (in Orc specifically), but they almost always show up with a bunch of lovely orcs. So in practice, it's more like Orc is just... denser, with more meaningfully dangerous enemies and less chaff. It is tougher than before, but not impossibly so. You just have to know when to duck out rather than tangling with a warlord and his retinue or whatever.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:28

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

What was the reason for that change? I wasn't following the game back then. Orc and Hive were my favorite branches. And Pan and Abyss are my least favorite. I can't wrap my mind around people who want less Orc and Hive, and more Abyss, but that's just me.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:38

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

BigFactory posted:

What was the reason for that change? I wasn't following the game back then. Orc and Hive were my favorite branches. And Pan and Abyss are my least favorite. I can't wrap my mind around people who want less Orc and Hive, and more Abyss, but that's just me.

Honestly, and it's been so long I can't remember it perfectly, but I can't say that I miss hive. Small enemy set that was rendered completely null by rPois/a poison weapon and not that hard by the point in the game even without. I think the only time I ever died there was from drowning by digging into the secret vault and a yellow wasp paralyzing me over the lake till my flight ran out like a chump. Getting more food then you would need for the rest of the game was nice though.

Agree with ya' on the rest though. Orc was always one of my favorites (minus the versions when sometimes sections would appear that required magic mapping and digging to even find) and Abyss is still a slog.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:46

megane: Jun 20, 2008

BigFactory posted:

What was the reason for that change? I wasn't following the game back then. Orc and Hive were my favorite branches. And Pan and Abyss are my least favorite. I can't wrap my mind around people who want less Orc and Hive, and more Abyss, but that's just me.

By the time you do Orc, normal orcs are basically empty space to you. So they removed a bunch of them. Other stuff spawns at basically the same rate it always has, maybe a little higher. You just get fewer hordes of meaningless popcorn.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:49

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

BigFactory posted:

Orc and Hive were my favorite branches.

Hive was completely terrible and minus the guaranteed shops orc was mostly boring chaff. Having played new orc I think I can confidently say it's better this way.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:50

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

I don't know the reason, but it feels mostly better to me. More or less the same experience as exploring all four levels, where you'd run into sorcs and such in the other pockets. I have not actually counted, but I wouldn't be surprised if a 100% mines run only shows a big difference in the number of scrub orcs.

I do have a couple of concerns, though. First, I used to dip in for gold but I don't know whether or not it is worth going in without finishing it anymore. Second, a vague concern about portal vaults- one so vague I even forgot about it midpost.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:52

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Won't lie, but I like Orc the same reason I love Zigs/Vault 5 Ambush. I just love massive battles (even against popcorn) were I feel like a sexy shoeless god of war after all is said and done. Just something pleasing about that.

Orc was good for that.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 16:55

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

World Famous W posted:

Won't lie, but I like Orc the same reason I love Zigs/Vault 5 Ambush. I just love massive battles (even against popcorn) were I feel like a sexy shoeless god of war after all is said and done. Just something pleasing about that.

Orc was good for that.

Yup, that's the one. Hive was the same way. Get rPois and then go murder a bunch of bees.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:05

kaschei: Oct 25, 2005

Just watch some cerebov vs hobgoblin snuff arenas

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:13

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Orc is still kinda like that. You just end up duking it out with mighty orc leaders in between mowing down mobs of their lovely peons, instead of nothing but peon mowing.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:26

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Or fumigating with deadly clouds and then summoning the corpses back as animated monsters...

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:27

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Angry Diplomat posted:

Orc is still kinda like that. You just end up duking it out with mighty orc leaders in between mowing down mobs of their lovely peons, instead of nothing but peon mowing.

I'm not complaining about the change really. I haven't even had a character survive to Orc since the change was made, so maybe it's fine. If I was in charge, they'd be more of that playstyle, not less, that's all I meant.

Bring back Hive 2016.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:30

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Hive 2.0 exists and is called Spider and it is pure suffering.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:40

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

Hive is a lesser vault these days so technically it never left. Besides, there's more pressing matters at hand.

More disco Pan. :v:

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:41

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Angry Diplomat posted:

Hive 2.0 exists and is called Spider and it is pure suffering.

Not the same!

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:43

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Move Spider to Pan, add new Disco Inferno branch to Lair

e: merge Spider and Shoals into Spidershoals, remove Spidershoals from Lair, replace all Dungeon floors with freshly generated Spidershoals floors during the Orb run

Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Feb 10, 2016

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:56

heard u like girls: Mar 25, 2013

The new 2 floor Orc feels really tight yeah. Also there's like really cool ending maps for the second floor. Huge orc cityblocks n poo poo

# ? Feb 10, 2016 17:57

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

I don't really like hugeorc cityblocks n poo poo, to be honest. That particular branch ending has always annoyed me because it takes about five times as long as any of the others.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 18:17

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Angry Diplomat posted:

Move Spider to Pan, add new Disco Inferno branch to Lair

e: merge Spider and Shoals into Spidershoals, remove Spidershoals from Lair, replace all Dungeon floors with freshly generated Spidershoals floors during the Orb run

FR: 5% chance for your game to swap Depths and Tomb. Zot entrance spawns instead of the rune, and vice versa for Depths-in-Crypt.

Edit: Ash gets a curse item ability and curse scrolls are removed!

Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Feb 10, 2016

# ? Feb 10, 2016 18:32

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

I was wondering when that was going to happen. Never made sense to be incapable of binding yourself if RNG decides it wasn't going to be nice.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 18:48

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Floodkiller posted:

Ash gets a curse item ability and curse scrolls are removed!

I might finally try Ash again now. Always heard they were powerful, but never could get one of off the ground and move back to the gods I know and can win with.

World Famous W fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Feb 10, 2016

# ? Feb 10, 2016 18:55

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Sage Grimm posted:

I was wondering when that was going to happen. Never made sense to be incapable of binding yourself if RNG decides it wasn't going to be nice.

Also the resulting pile of scrolls of curse x

# ? Feb 10, 2016 19:03

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Floodkiller posted:

FR: 5% chance for your game to swap Depths and Tomb. Zot entrance spawns instead of the rune, and vice versa for Depths-in-Crypt.

Edit: Ash gets a curse item ability and curse scrolls are removed!

Finally

# ? Feb 10, 2016 19:05

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

I wonder if it costs piety? Good move either way

# ? Feb 10, 2016 19:20

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

No piety, if I'm reading the patch right. Just a scroll of remove curse.

# ? Feb 10, 2016 20:24

the Orb of Zot: Jun 25, 2013; Apport: the Orb of Zot
The orb shrieks as your magic touches it!
Yoink! You pull the item towards yourself.
You see here the Orb of Zot.

Today's lession: Na have the worst early game of anything ever, slowly improve until they're stellar, and then become godawful all over again for the orb run.

Also got horribly malmutated thanks to Zot:5 going horribly wrong and even after all the cmut was used still was stuck with frail 2. Mercifully, that didn't mean much because I had 70 AC and thus took very little damage from most attacks (OCPA is ridiculous if you can use it at all for melee, even if magic isn't in the question).

# ? Feb 11, 2016 01:54

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Na early game feels strong to me, poison spit 2 is real good early on. You can clear d1 without ever attacking or casting with a little luck. But I usually pick air elementalist as Naga, so having swiftness to reach 1.0 move speed to flee giants etc helps a lot. Their good innate stealth also helps.

They're nowhere near as bad as mummies or felids. At the very least with Naga you're not condemned to being bad for the entire game.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 03:23

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Mummies have the worst early game, just like they have the worst everything else.

Mummies are suffering.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 03:29

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/resistentialism/morgue-resistentialism-20160211-022632.txt

So I 4 runed a Ds of pakellas to try it out. It's fun how you can get a huge toolset while only training 4-5 skills. Powered by pain is kinda OP with him.

I spent most of the game with an amulet of harm and -rC from a fire dragon armour, so I fully expected to splat somewhere to a cold giant, but it never happened.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 03:36

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Haifisch posted:

Even Ozoarmor will either keep being used all the time or no longer be used at all.

Why do you think that?

# ? Feb 11, 2016 03:37

Mystery Prize: Nov 7, 2010

Is it just me or does it seem to be much easier to find a good long blades weapon early than it does to find a mace?

It might just be confirmation bias, but I constantly run into decent stuff like long swords/scimitars with good brands, and I have real difficulty finding a mace stronger than a branded whip until midway through the lair. I think it's partially because I often run into a pack of wights that have a decent branded long blade.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 04:36

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

Mystery Prize posted:

Is it just me or does it seem to be much easier to find a good long blades weapon early than it does to find a mace?

Mostly I would assume it's the other way around, because of dire flails and elec/venom whips and orcs (branded flail/morningstar) mostly. You do have Erica/Azrael for flaming scimitars and sometimes a wight pack will give a freezing scimitar/greatsword but I expect to find good maces sooner than long blades (the wights can give freezing morningstar/dflail also).

# ? Feb 11, 2016 04:52

kaschei: Oct 25, 2005

Giant spiked clubs are always � la mode

# ? Feb 11, 2016 05:01

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

I'm not sure I've ever gotten to lair without at least finding a morningstar. Which is fine for a long time, really.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 05:16

Mystery Prize: Nov 7, 2010

Always Eat Purple :shepface:

# ? Feb 11, 2016 05:25

the Orb of Zot: Jun 25, 2013; Apport: the Orb of Zot
The orb shrieks as your magic touches it!
Yoink! You pull the item towards yourself.
You see here the Orb of Zot.

Darox posted:

Na early game feels strong to me, poison spit 2 is real good early on. You can clear d1 without ever attacking or casting with a little luck. But I usually pick air elementalist as Naga, so having swiftness to reach 1.0 move speed to flee giants etc helps a lot. Their good innate stealth also helps.

They're nowhere near as bad as mummies or felids. At the very least with Naga you're not condemned to being bad for the entire game.

Felids, as generally terrible as they are, do have fast movement. That basically means their early game is at least tolerable. I had a FeIE that lost 2 of it's 3 lives in a volcano to the same yaktaur before I realized I shouldn't be trying to kill it, left, and went on to not die again for the rest of the game. Fast movement + Ozo's + ice magic conjurations + Fe's insane evasion went a very long way to letting me survive. It certainly wasn't easy thanks to their godawful HP, but it wasn't ever truly bad the entire game.

Mummies, yeah no arguing there. My Mu win was a MuSu back when summoning was hilariously overpowered and MuSu was borderline godlike if you lived to Sif Muna's first point of piety because of how many summons you could spam. Winning a Mu these days seems ridiculously difficult because they're the one race that sucks in basically every regard, and it isn't helped by how Mu often gets nerfed by various changes (the most recent being clarity removal).

Of course, Op probably has the worst early game of anything. Not much more HP than Fe (DE level HP), no extra lives, no fast movement, no ridiculous evasion, no body armor, not much in the way of standout apitudes... I won an OpIE only by basically doing mutation roulette and hitting a truly insane mutation suite.

code:

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You are amphibious.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You can use your tentacles to constrict many enemies at once.
Your skin blends seamlessly with your surroundings (Stealth).
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks (AC +1).
You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field (EV +2).
You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2).
You are partially covered in molten scales (AC +1).
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
Your mind is very acute. (Int +4)
Your flesh is cold resistant.
Your flesh is heat resistant.
You have an increased reservoir of magic (+10% MP).
You are extremely resistant to the effects of hostile enchantments.
Your system is resistant to poisons.
You are very robust (+20% HP).
Your muscles are strong. (Str +2)
Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.

That game did showcase to me how good Ice Form with Ozo's was though for a race with no body armor access though, and the 8 ring slots made it ridiculous come lategame.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 11:58

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 01:51

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Octopodes only have -10% less HP than average, and their aptitudes are actually quite good: 0's across the board with some small variations here and there (and a whopping +4 in stealth, which is quite useful to get a few points in since you're never wearing armor anyway). They're still one of the harder starts, of course.

I think Mummies take the cake for worst start; their aptitudes singlehandedly turn any early game into a total nightmare without even going into their other cons.

# ? Feb 11, 2016 15:30

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