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Angry Grimace posted:There's no legitimate reason that Ancestral Vision is banned given that the game is probably decided by the time it resolves and its one of the most miserable topdecks in Magic. And if you play it T1 or T2 your chances of winning the game are like 70%. No thanks.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:13
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Gyshall posted:dies to doomblade too realpost "dies to removal" is actually a legitimate criticism for cards that cost 4+(and maybe even cards that cost 3), it's just not necessarily the end-all be all
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Feb 12, 2016 21:15
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A 4 mana card that dies to the most popular spell in the format for 1 mana and no additional value probably is not going to be good.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:17
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mcmagic posted:And if you play it T1 or T2 your chances of winning the game are like 70%. No thanks. That's a pretty cool completely made-up-on-the-spot figure you got there.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:18
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Irony Be My Shield posted:A 4 mana card that dies to the most popular spell in the format for 1 mana and no additional value probably is not going to be good. I mean, Olivia saw play. The difference is that Olivia is really really good if you get to untap with it, while Braids is pretty mediocre in almost all circumstances
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Feb 12, 2016 21:19
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It's also at least possible to get value off it instantly.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:20
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Angry Grimace posted:That's a pretty cool completely made-up-on-the-spot figure you got there. It's from Shardless testing.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:21
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mcmagic posted:It's from Shardless testing. I don't get what you are trying to communicate. Shardless Agent isn't legal in Modern, so you're talking about a different format as far as I can tell.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:25
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mcmagic posted:It's from Shardless testing. A lot of Shardless cards, like Shardless, don't exist in Modern and don't have equivalent cards to make this comparison 1:1 E: I think it's actually more telling that no decks play it that aren't ripping three for free off of their gray ogres TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 21:26
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Angry Grimace posted:I don't get what you are trying to communicate. Shardless Agent isn't legal in Modern, so you're talking about a different format as far as I can tell. Yes. A more powerful format and Visions warps games in that format. Why wouldn't it be even more oppressive in Modern?
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Feb 12, 2016 21:29
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Shardless wouldn't be legal even if they wiped the banlist clean, it wasn't printed in a standard legal set ever.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:38
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mcmagic posted:Yes. A more powerful format and Visions warps games in that format. Why wouldn't it be even more oppressive in Modern? Because you can't brainstorm it away or for an easy draw 3 and seriously, it loses a lot without Shardless. E: have you seen the decks in Modern that want it? They all suck.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:42
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TheKingofSprings posted:Because you can't brainstorm it away or for an easy draw 3 and seriously, it loses a lot without Shardless. Most of Visions' power is to play it on T1 or T2 and draw 3 a few turns later, not to cascade into it. Yeah it's a bad late game top deck but so what? It's oppressive if you get it down early.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:44
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terminus is good in a more powerful format why isn't it good in modern? it's almost like "______ is good in a more powerful format why isn't it good in a less powerful format" is a bad way to evaluate a card.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:44
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mcmagic posted:Most of Visions' power is to play it on T1 or T2 and draw 3 a few turns later, not to cascade into it. Yeah it's a bad late game top deck but so what? It's oppressive if you get it down early. So then by your logic it should be a 4 of in basically every grindy Blue deck in the format, and probably a few more besides. Why isn't it?
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Feb 12, 2016 21:46
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Zoness posted:terminus is good in a more powerful format why isn't it good in modern? This isn't a valid comparison. You need deck manipulation for Terminus to be good. If you just fart Visions out on T1 or T2 it's oppressively good.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:47
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TheKingofSprings posted:So then by your logic it should be a 4 of in basically every grindy Blue deck in the format, and probably a few more besides. You talking about Legacy? Or modern? It would be a 4 of in every slowish blue deck in modern.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:48
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TheKingofSprings posted:Because you can't brainstorm it away or for an easy draw 3 and seriously, it loses a lot without Shardless. I mean, I would play it in Faeries, but I have no illusions that Faeries is something other than a fun Tier 2 or even 3 deck that gets to occasionally bust out Time Walks attached to 4/4s. I don't think the card would even be all that good. Sure, its good on turn 1, but its not like you can predict the gamestate in Turn 5 - the decks that want AV are the decks that don't compete very well right now because they're dead on Turn 5 or close to it, in which case Visions is a fair enough card.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:49
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mcmagic posted:You talking about Legacy? Or modern? It would be a 4 of in every slowish blue deck in modern. In Legacy. There are no good slowish blue decks in modern currently, despite what some posters in this very thread might tell you about Scapeshift and Tron.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:49
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mcmagic posted:This isn't a valid comparison. You need deck manipulation for Terminus to be good. If you just fart Visions out on T1 or T2 it's oppressively good. How do you even get them out that soon with these as your cascaders instead of good creatures that can hold jittes? Jitte isn't even modern legal. poo poo. Kathari Remnant ain't close to BBE or Shardless Agent and the rest aren't even bodies.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:50
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mcmagic posted:You talking about Legacy? Or modern? It would be a 4 of in every slowish blue deck in modern. Except that is exactly what he is saying: those decks either don't exist or suck and need something to be made better.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:50
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TheKingofSprings posted:In Legacy. So why not make Jace legal too? there aren't any decks that would play it, right?
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Feb 12, 2016 21:51
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mcmagic posted:So why not make Jace legal too? there aren't any decks that would play it, right? Finally, a good idea.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:52
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mcmagic posted:So why not make Jace legal too? there aren't any decks that would play it, right? Jace requires blue at all to be good. There are decks in Modern that add U to their mana pools.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:52
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The Shortest Path posted:It's either getting banned or the deck will get shut down hard by metagame answers. Sell now, don't ever look back. Well yeah but surely you agree that they are typically (ie when not in the grip of a sudden meta game distortion due to a powerful new set or two) some of the stronger cards in Modern?
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Feb 12, 2016 21:53
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Angry Grimace posted:Finally, a good idea. No it's not a good idea. Oppressive cards will find a way to be oppressive no matter what the metagame looks like at any point in time.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:54
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mcmagic posted:So why not make Jace legal too? there aren't any decks that would play it, right? That's the best idea you've suggested in a long time.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:56
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I dont think this card will ever be oppressive   mcmagic posted:This isn't a valid comparison. You need deck manipulation for Terminus to be good. If you just fart Visions out on T1 or T2 it's oppressively good. You're pointing out the crux of the comparison yourself - the context surrounding the card makes it stronger in a format with the tools to make it good as opposed to how the card would be in a format without those tools. Ancestral in modern isn't necessarily oppressive despite how powerful it can be in legacy because the cards that enable the broken scenarios don't exist in modern and the value of individual cards is lower because fewer of them can be relevant by turn 4.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:00
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TheKingofSprings posted:In Legacy. I've never once made the claim that Blue Tron is good, just that it's a ton of fun and it's not nearly as bad as people like to think it is. I also would play exactly 0 copies of Ancestral Vision and maybe 1 Jace. mcmagic posted:No it's not a good idea. Oppressive cards will find a way to be oppressive no matter what the metagame looks like at any point in time. Jace would only be good in blue midrange/control decks, and only against other midrange/control decks. Tapping out on turn 4 is a pretty good way to die in modern. Of course if we're playing Spirit Guides, we can turn 2 a Jace and get a whole Brainstorm in before we die.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:00
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Isn't Painful Truths the better card draw spell when you don't have Shardless Agent?
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Feb 12, 2016 22:01
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Zoness posted:I dont think this card will ever be oppressive My point is that visions doesn't need cascade to be overpowered.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:02
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You call yourself McMagic, but your posts are really McTragic.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Isn't Painful Truths the better card draw spell when you don't have Shardless Agent? No. It's the fixed version of Visions.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:06
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mcmagic posted:No it's not a good idea. Oppressive cards will find a way to be oppressive no matter what the metagame looks like at any point in time. I, for one, cannot wait for your sick Trinisphere deck; the card was, after all, restricted in Vintage, an even more powerful format than Legacy.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:09
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mcmagic posted:No. It's the fixed version of Visions. The problem is that you're not answering the question of what deck becomes oppressive with Visions in the format. Prior to last month, you could at least have argued the answer was Twin.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:10
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that you're not answering the question of what deck becomes oppressive with Visions in the format. Prior to last month, you could at least have argued the answer was Twin. it's obvious, the blue deck from the blue block of magic.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:12
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that you're not answering the question of what deck becomes oppressive with Visions in the format. Prior to last month, you could at least have argued the answer was Twin. That isn't the rational for unbanning a card. It doesn't have to slot right into an existing deck to be too powerful for a given format. Elyv posted:I, for one, cannot wait for your sick Trinisphere deck; the card was, after all, restricted in Vintage, an even more powerful format than Legacy. I cut them from my 75. But yea there are tons of dumb cards legal in legacy.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:13
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Everyone knows the only good Standard deck has 4 each of the cards too powerful for Legacy, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:23
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Gonna do some Oath drafts tonight on MODO, haven't even touched the format but I've watched a few streams. Any tips/recommendations?
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Feb 12, 2016 22:39
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mcmagic posted:That isn't the rational for unbanning a card. It doesn't have to slot right into an existing deck to be too powerful for a given format.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:50
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