Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOVNr9cn-Q8

100 Years Ago

A young German private waits in a dugout near Verdun for this accursed rain to end. Meanwhile, there's a diversionary attack near Ypres; planning to recover the Bluff is underway, and there's a highly interesting artillery plan being devised to support it. Even the Italians are getting with the "pushing the envelope" programme! And Lord Kitchener may now be less important than once he was, but he's still got enough pull to give General Tighe a major bollocking over Salaita Hill.

From the correspondents: Malcolm White joins his battalion, Edward Mousley gets the closest thing to a cushy job that he might expect (but must now part from his pet frog), and Neil Fraser-Tytler is enjoying a game called "Hunting the Hun".

# ? Feb 18, 2016 15:45

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# ? May 27, 2024 12:07

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

In the case of WW2 it's probably particlarly important to note that we instinctively view the situation through the prism of the US having been a global superpower for our entire lifetimes.

In 1940 the US is an economic superpower but for self-imposed reasons had virtually no influence outside of the Americas diplomatically or militarily. Massive miscalculation over the impact on public opinion that a bunch of sneaky asians messing with US manifest destiny to do whatever it wants aside, it was a fair analysis by contemporary standards that if Japan was able to rapidly expel the colonial powers from SE Asia and set up a contiguous defensive perimeter that sealed off the rest of the world then the US might just shrug and say 'ok, don't care that much anyway'.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 15:51

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Strabo posted:

Edit: Also this guy is a journalist/writer so you might possibly prevent him from spreading lovely opinions and will help make the world a better place.

You have no idea how sad that sentence made me :smith:

.

Also, generals are loving insane yeah. You can pretty much look from the times of the Romans to well now and you can easily find all sorts of crazy from That Guy to the dude who has his head in the clouds/is legit insane but somehow got promoted.

Example, this guy was convinced a French soldier buggered him and impregnated him with an elephant. To be fair to him though, he was over 70 in the 19th century. Then we got Stonewall Jackson with the arm thing which is almost as crazy as views on religion.

Craziest general stories time go!

# ? Feb 18, 2016 16:11

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

feedmegin posted:

Of course, that last one was from March 1945 compared to all the others from 1939/1940 - by which time Germany was well and truly hosed food/infrastructure-wise. The first few years after the end of the war were brutal for Germany starvation-wise.

Yeah, I just wanted to include it to show how the situation had changed compared to the very beginning of the war. The stuff I took from also included something from 1946, where rampant theft of food resulted in laws being passed that (among other things) restricted food displays in windows and on store shelves to try and avoid presenting valuable targets for thieves.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 16:17

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Oh and Roman von Ungern-Sternberg doesn't count, he's a special class of cartoony super villain evil.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 16:25

lenoon: Jan 7, 2010

Ive often wondered with Ungen-Sternberg whether or not he's just a figure inserted in by the hand of history thinking "this 20th century is not insane enough yet". It's almost too insane to be real.

I guess the English Civil War produced a fair few generals, majors and colonels who were considered crazy at the time - and have since largely been rehabilitated away from "totally batshit insane by the standards of the day" to "indistinguishable from tumblr". Major William Rainsborowe, a Ranter, possible nudist, publisher, arms dealer, leading participant in the Putney debates, carried a personal standard depicting Charles 1st's head mid-severance. Got heavily into the mystical implications of the civil war, eventually arrested for treason and arms dealing, emigrated to Boston where he apparently carried on being a Ranter and a nudist. Good poo poo.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 16:56

George Rouncewell: Jul 20, 2007; You think that's illegal? Heh, watch this.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Oh and Roman von Ungern-Sternberg doesn't count, he's a special class of cartoony super villain evil.

Please elaborate

# ? Feb 18, 2016 16:57

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Illegal Username posted:

Please elaborate

It's more fun just looking up the man himself, the Wikipedia article here covers it quite nicely.

Basically a Russian civil war white army general attempts to play at Ghengis Khan.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 17:17

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Russia's connection to reality is always at best shaky and almost flew away entirely in RCW. It's still the land of never ending Twilight Zone.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 17:32

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeanBeansShako posted:

Craziest general stories time go!

wallenstein established a postal service in his dominions, based on military post riders

edit: there's also a painting of him as mars the god of war on the ceiling of his palace in prague, from where it still looks down on whoever uses it today, i think the Czech Senate

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Feb 18, 2016

# ? Feb 18, 2016 19:04

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Jackie Fisher was a Grade A weirdo but I don't think he had the autism much as I'd like to say he did.

He did write like the Time Cube dude, though. All CAPITALIZED WORDS and multiple underlines.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 19:33

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Jackie Fisher was a Grade A weirdo but I don't think he had the autism much as I'd like to say he did.

He did write like the Time Cube dude, though. All CAPITALIZED WORDS and multiple underlines.

wallenstein wrote with what we consider refreshing directness, which means by the standards of the time ("Most Illustrious And Excellent Signore" this and "I kiss your hands" that--to a person you hate who's ruining your life) I'm surprised nobody challenged him to a duel based on what he said in print alone

# ? Feb 18, 2016 19:37

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

I just finished an interesting little history book: Hidden Warships: Finding World War II's Abandoned, Sunk, and Preserved Warships by Nicholas Veronico. The book covers the history and current status of quite a few ships sunk during and after the war. The history part of the relevant battles is pretty short and simple, more time is spent on the search for and review of the wrecks and preserved ships themselves.

In order, the ships covered are:

The five Japanese midget submarines from the Pearl Harbor attack.
USS Arizona, with bits on USS Utah and the three American ships at Pearl Harbor that are still around today.
HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales.
Admiral Graf Spee
U-550
Surviving intact u-boats in museums around the world.
Truk lagoon
The ships sunk in the Bikini Atoll nuclear tests (particular attention paid to Saratoga and Nagato).
USS Grunnion
The I-400 class Japanese aircraft carrier submarines (and a few other Japanese submarines discovered during the searches)
PT 658, a fully restored US motor torpedo boat.
USS Iowa
The surviving Victory and Liberty ships.

The book closes out with a beginner's guide to anyone interested in diving on shipwrecks or seeing them without the need to dive.

Pretty interesting little book if the subject matter interests you.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 20:48

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

HEY GAL, do your guys brew their own booze? Or, more specifically, are they legally allowed to?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:05

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tevery Best posted:

HEY GAL, do your guys brew their own booze? Or, more specifically, are they legally allowed to?

The do not, usually, and they are not allowed to, legally. I know this because female members of military communities get arrested every now and then for doing jobs that are locked down by city regulations, such as selling various poo poo or brewing beer, etc. If you can read German there's something in Stefan Kroll's book on the Saxon army in the next century about the tensions between having to provide food for groups of soldiers and trying to not run afoul of guild regulations surrounding butchering, etc.

Their superiors probably do brew their own beer, often, since they are often great landowners as well.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Feb 18, 2016

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:12

The Belgian: Oct 28, 2008

Isn't it hard to set up a brewing operation when you're on the move? Or would they stay in one palce for a long time?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:40

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

The Belgian posted:

Isn't it hard to set up a brewing operation when you're on the move? Or would they stay in one palce for a long time?

These guys had big landed estates with lots of peasants. The brewing was done on those estates and, presumably, the resulting booze shipped to whatever poor pillaged part of Mitteleuropa it was where the general was getting his campaign on.

Or they just made like Rooster Cogburn and confiscated whatever the local version of Double Rectified Busthead was.

Napoleon, being French as gently caress, had cases of decent wine, brandy, and other liquor shipped to his headquarters as part of its provisions.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:00

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

These guys had big landed estates with lots of peasants. The brewing was done on those estates and, presumably, the resulting booze shipped to whatever poor pillaged part of Mitteleuropa it was where the general was getting his campaign on.

wallenstein owns something like half of bohemia, on which he has military supplies of all kinds made, raises silkworms, brews beer, and makes vermouth (because he drinks it straight).

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:10

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Just because I mentioned that 1946 article on food theft in post-war Germany, I'll post the excerpt from https://www.foodtimeline.org

quote:

"Last night a food factory was robbed and nearly two tons of sugar and a ton of syrup were stolen...Thieves escaped with more than 300 sausages and two sides of bacon in the burglary of a slaughterhouse. The German working-class attitude in Hamburg still is anti-British and is generally tending to become hostile. Germans are blaming the British for the failure to provide adequate food...Hamburg police were issued tonight 5,000 copies of an order to food store proprietors warning them to set guards on stores during closing hours and to keep all food displays from store windows. Proprietors also were enjoined to keep only a minimum of food on counters and to place the rest in cellars and storerooms under lock and key..."
---"33 Drop of Hunger in Hamburg Plant," New York Times, March 23, 1946 (p. 4)

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:13

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

HEY GAL posted:

wallenstein owns something like half of bohemia, on which he has military supplies of all kinds made, raises silkworms, brews beer, and makes vermouth (because he drinks it straight).

Czech silkworms.

I mean, makes sense after the world's most badass heist, but still.

Czech. Silkworms.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:16

The Belgian: Oct 28, 2008

Oh yeah, Wallenstein & co. do, sorry if my question wasn't clear: I meant the mercanary soldiers themselves which seemed to be what Tevery Best asked about? You said they aren't allowed to legally but can they even do so practically?

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:21

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Alchenar posted:

In 1940 the US is an economic superpower but for self-imposed reasons had virtually no influence outside of the Americas diplomatically or militarily.
<snip>
it was a fair analysis by contemporary standards that if Japan was able to rapidly expel the colonial powers from SE Asia and set up a contiguous defensive perimeter that sealed off the rest of the world then the US might just shrug and say 'ok, don't care that much anyway'.

Really:

Wikipedia posted:

1920 � China: On March 14, a landing force was sent ashore for a few hours to protect lives during a disturbance at Kiukiang.[RL30172]

1920 � Guatemala: From April 9 to 27, U.S. forces protected the American Legation and other American interests, such as the cable station, during a period of fighting between Unionists and the Government of Guatemala.[RL30172]

1920�22 � Russia (Siberia): From February 16, 1920 to November 19, 1922, a Marine guard was sent to protect the United States radio station and property on Russian Island, Bay of Vladivostok.[RL30172]

1921 � Panama and Costa Rica: American naval squadrons demonstrated in April on both sides of the Isthmus to prevent war between the two countries over a boundary dispute.[RL30172]

1922 � Turkey: In September and October, a landing force was sent ashore with consent of both Greek and Turkish authorities, to protect American lives and property when the Turkish nationalists entered İzmir (Smyrna).[RL30172]

1922�23 � China: From April 1922 to November 1923, Marines were landed five times to protect Americans during periods of unrest.[RL30172]

1924 � Honduras: From February 28 to March 31, and from September 10 to 15, U.S. forces protected American lives and interests during election hostilities.[RL30172]

1924 � China: In September, Marines were landed to protect Americans and other foreigners in Shanghai during Chinese factional hostilities.[RL30172]

1925 � China: From January 15 to August 29, fighting of Chinese factions accompanied by riots and demonstrations in Shanghai brought the landing of American forces to protect lives and property in the International Settlement.[RL30172]

1925 � Honduras: From April 19 to 21, U.S. forces protected foreigners at La Ceiba during a political upheaval.[RL30172]

1925 � Panama: From October 12 to 23, strikes and rent riots led to the landing of about 600 American troops to keep order and protect American interests.[RL30172]

1926�33 � Nicaragua: From May 7 to June 5, 1926 and August 27, 1926 to January 3, 1933, the coup d'�tat of General Chamorro aroused revolutionary activities leading to the landing of American marines to protect the interests of the United States. United States forces came and went intermittently until January 3, 1933.[RL30172]

1926 � China: In August and September, the Nationalist attack on Hankow brought the landing of American naval forces to protect American citizens. A small guard was maintained at the consulate general even after September 16, when the rest of the forces were withdrawn. Likewise, when Nationalist forces captured Kiukiang, naval forces were landed for the protection of foreigners November 4 to 6.[RL30172]

1927 � China: In February, fighting at Shanghai caused presence American naval forces and marines to be increased. In March, a naval guard was stationed at American consulate at Nanking after Nationalist forces captured the city. American and British destroyers later used shell fire to protect Americans and other foreigners. Subsequently additional forces of Marines and naval forces were stationed in the vicinity of Shanghai and Tientsin.[RL30172]

1930�1939[edit]
1932 � China: American forces were landed to protect American interests during the Japanese occupation of Shanghai.[RL30172]

1933 � Cuba: During a revolution against President Gerardo Machado naval forces demonstrated but no landing was made.[RL30172]

1934 � China: Marines landed at Foochow to protect the American Consulate.[RL30172]

Looks like a very active 'neo-colonial' global player

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/philamer/

quote:

The United States and its Territories, 1870 to 1925 - The Age of Imperialism.

The United States and its Territories, drawn from the University of Michigan Library's Southeast Asia collection, comprises the full text of monographs and government documents published in the United States, Spain, and the Philippines between 1870 and 1925. The primary focus of the material is the Spanish-American war and subsequent American governance (approximately 1898-1910). The text collection is complemented by digitized images from key photograph collections drawn from the Special Collections Library.

http://www.jonathanfeicht.com/mckinley--roosevelt-and-changing-us-policy.html

quote:

America's Changing View of the World
Up until the Spanish American War, the United States had only worried about their own problems. They fought against Mexico to establish their southern border. Then Americans spent 5 years fighting against each other in the American Civil War. The next 20 years were spent recovering from the damage the Civil War had caused. William McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt the American Presidents at the turn of the century began involving the United States in foreign issues. America came to the defense of Cuba and also claimed several foreign territories as their own. Then America paid 375 million dollars to build a canal through the country of Panama to improve the ease of transportation.

As you can see from that map "the US might just shrug and say 'ok, don't care that much anyway'." is obviously wrong. The aggressive Japanese activities in Asia were certain to draw America into conflict sooner rather than later.

Perspective and adjusting for it is a vital asset in studying history but I think you may have over reached in your analysis of it's importance here.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:31

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

HEY GAL posted:

wallenstein owns something like half of bohemia, on which he has military supplies of all kinds made, raises silkworms, brews beer, and makes vermouth (because he drinks it straight).

He truly is crazy :psyduck:

# ? Feb 19, 2016 01:51

LeadSled: Jan 7, 2008

Devlan Mud posted:

He truly is crazy

I'm finishing up Foote's civil war trilogy, and the descriptions of Stonewall Jackson kept reminding me of someone that I couldn't place. Then I remembered this thread.

Mind you, Jackson was a man who enjoyed sucking on lemons and didn't add pepper to his food 'because it made his leg ache'

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:01

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

The Belgian posted:

Oh yeah, Wallenstein & co. do, sorry if my question wasn't clear: I meant the mercanary soldiers themselves which seemed to be what Tevery Best asked about? You said they aren't allowed to legally but can they even do so practically?

there's a lot of time they spend just hanging out; one of Hagendorf's wives scavenged some bricks and made an oven once, which allowed her to sell bread to soldiers

Devlan Mud posted:

He truly is crazy

people invented most of the gross mixed drink ingredients before they invented the mixed drinks. vermouth is a breakfast drink, so's brandy, then you switch to wine (or in Wallenstein's case, beer) throughout the day. the really serious drinking is done at night though

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:02

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

You also forget that there was a big, big China lobby constantly hassling the US government for support against Imperial Japan. It's not hard to make a case for international aid when a diplomatically isolated state starts a full scale war of aggression against you. Heck, the reason why the US placed an oil embargo against Japan in the first place (and is often cited as one of Japan's casus belli) was a response to the invasion of China.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:03

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Phobophilia posted:

one of Japan's casus belli

casi

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:05

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

god drat it i looked it up specifically for that post, im pretty sure it can be used as a plural without alteration

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:06

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Phobophilia posted:

god drat it i looked it up specifically for that post, im pretty sure it can be used as a plural without alteration

Semi-relevant:

Bellum bellum bellum, belli bello bello!

I will never forget that. Thanks Bermo! Everything else is gone :ssh:

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:15

darthbob88: Oct 13, 2011; YOSPOS

Phobophilia posted:

god drat it i looked it up specifically for that post, im pretty sure it can be used as a plural without alteration

Not quite, I think; casus is AFAIK a fourth-declension noun, so it pluralizes to casūs. Still close enough for posting in ASCII.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:26

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

darthbob88 posted:

Not quite, I think; casus is AFAIK a fourth-declension noun, so it pluralizes to casūs. Still close enough for posting in ASCII.

i stand corrected

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:30

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

I'm sorry did I wander into the Classics thread? Pretty sure we're talking English and gently caress that noise.

Octopuses, bitches. gently caress prescriptivism.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:32

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

I'll prescriptive the gently caress out of your octopods!

HEY GAL is correct BTW, it's a 1st/2nd declension depending who you ask.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:37

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Arquinsiel posted:

I'll prescriptive the gently caress out of your octopods!

HEY GAL is correct BTW, it's a 1st/2nd declension depending who you ask.

no i'm not, wikipedia says it's a fourth

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:46

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

Xiahou Dun posted:

I'm sorry did I wander into the Classics thread? Pretty sure we're talking English and gently caress that noise.

Octopuses, bitches. gently caress prescriptivism.

"octopuses" - more than one octopus
"octopodes" - referring to members of the taxonomic group Octopoda
"octopi" - you're a pretentious twat, it's not even derived from Latin

Xiahou Dun posted:

That was the joke, prick.

I'm a linguist.

I know I was agreeing! :v:

Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 02:51

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

That was the joke, prick.

I'm a linguist.

Edit : whoops. Sorry! I misread. I blame a long-rear end teaching day.

Xiahou Dun fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 03:18

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

HEY GAL posted:

no i'm not, wikipedia says it's a fourth

Unless you're using it to mean the adjective "fallen"! :pseudo:

Latin is crazy.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 03:36

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

PlantHead posted:
Do you have more info on this? I live right near Poole and know nothing about it.

I'll come back to this later today, but it's in Gutierre Diaz de Gamez's El Victorial

OK so I lied about the when but I am in fact back to post. The only real source we have for this is Gutierre Diaz de Gamez's El Victorial, which is something of a biography of Don Pero Ni�o, Count of Buelna. Although it is basically alone, it is considered a very credible source. Diaz himself was a man-at-arms, and usually served as Ni�o's standard bearer, as he did in this fight.

This fight occurs in 1405. The Franco-Castilian fleet is captained by Pero Ni�o. The fleet has been ravaging its way east along the English coast. While on this path the count hears of a town called Poole, home of a famous corsair. Don Pero, liking nothing more than a good fight, "rejoiced greatly thereat". When the galleys finally arrive, it is dawn, and Pero Ni�o wishes to land his troops and start the pillaging immediately. His French counterpart proves too worried about the shoals and reefs near shore, and though he tries to arrive toward the end of the battle ends up not actually doing any fighting. Don Pero lands some boats full of soldiers, who row ashore and begin the sack. However, they are driven out of the town by the locals, and have to withdraw (in good order, mind) to the beach. Don Pero, on seeing this, sends more soldiers, including the men-at-arms, ashore while those already there defend themselves against the soldiers from the town. In this second wave comes the captain's cousin, Fernando Ni�o, as well as Gutierre with the banner. Don Pero also sends the order that no booty should be taken, and instead as much burnt as possible, since plunder would weigh the soldiers down.

I will let Diaz take it from here [with some editing].

quote:

So in a little time the town was altogether burnt, except for one fair and great dwelling, which was defended by many men who had taken refuge therein; but the Castilians were so determined that they forced an entrance into this house also, and those who were within escaped by the back; they found therein a quantity of all manner of arms, bolts, rigging, sails and all the furnishings of ships-of-war. They carried off as much as they could of these things and then fired the castle. This affair ended, they came back towards the galleys, still fighting with the English; and as they began to board the galleys there came up a great number of English on foot and on horseback. The horsemen dismounted, went forward on foot, and made a fair array of men-at-arms and bowmen; and they were so near them that they could easily tell the fair men from the dark. They had with them house doors, which they set upon the ground, propping them up on stakes and sheltering behind them in the battle. They did this for fear of the arbalests, which used to kill many of them. They held the higher ground and the Castilians the lower; and the arrows were so many and came so thick that the crossbowmen did not dare to stoop to bend their bows. Many were already hit by these arrows, and there were so many, that those who wore leather jerkins or surcoats [jacks?] seemed all stuck with arrows. The standard and he who bore it were likewise riddled with arrows, and the standard bearer had as many round his body as a bull in the ring, but he was well shielded by his good armour, although this was already bent in several places. The English are experienced in war and, to get to grips with the Castilians they waited until the crossbowmen should, by dint of shooting, have emptied their trusses.

The captain Pero Ni�o was in his galley, whence he saw how the number of the English grew every moment and that there were among them many valiant men at arms. He recognised that the issue hung in the balance; he left his galley with the small company that had stayed there and landed. . . When the Castilians saw the captain they took fresh courage. He, encouraging all he met, reached his standard. He who bore it was alone and in great jeopardy between the Castilians and the English, for, to declare the truth, the Castilians had retreated some three paces which the English had gained.
. . .
And Pero Ni�o said to Gutierre Diaz, his standard-bearer: �Friend, take heed when you hear the trumpets sound; then march forward with the standard and go forward up to the English. There make your stand and leave it not.� The captain, very well armed, as soon as he had arrayed his men, started shouting with a loud voice: �Saint James! Saint James!� The trumpets sounded, the standard advanced and all rushed after it. Then was it time for every man to do his duty and to shew his worth, for no man lacked an adversary. The battle was well sustained on both sides; at last the English gave way, but not all, for the gentlefolk fought very steadily as they retreated. If the men from the galleys who were on foot had been mounted, they could have made many men prisoners that day; even as it was enough were killed or taken . . . And I speak truth: when the battle was ended the arrows lay so thick upon the ground that no man could walk without treading on arrows in such numbers that they picked them up in handfuls. . . That day there died also a brother of Harry Paye, a good soldier, who did very fair deeds before he died. When all was over, Pero Ni�o invited Messire Charles [who led the French] to dine with him that day, he and his knights; and so was it done. And in such sort had the English been beaten and vanquished that not one of them appeared again, but they let the Castilians get aboard their galleys again at their ease, without a conflict. These tended their wounded, and ate and rested, for they had need to.

Later during this voyage, Pero Ni�o insists on seeing London but the sailors head to Southampton instead, presumably hoping to dupe him and avoid a dangerous trip. The Count of Buelna is satisfied seeing the city from a distance, and the ships depart with neither count nor biographer any the wiser.

El Victorial is available in English as The Unconquered Knight.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 05:25

BurningStone: Jun 3, 2011

Isn't it rather odd that there's no English or French source for this battle?

# ? Feb 19, 2016 06:02

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 27, 2024 12:07

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

BurningStone posted:

Isn't it rather odd that there's no English or French source for this battle?

To be honest I don't know whether or not it does. I've not seen any reference to other primary sources but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Further information might be stashed away in charters or other non-chronicle sources, but I don't care enough about the topic to do THAT much digging.

That said, even if there weren't, it wouldn't be that peculiar. The Castilians only had three galleys, so it was a small engagement, with maybe a few hundred men on either side, and not strategically significant. It was contemporary with Owen Glendour's rebellion in Wales, and much more attention would have been focused there. Also, sometimes sources just get lost or destroyed. To take another (edit: extreme) example, we have 0 Fatimid sources for the conquest of Sicily by the Normans. None.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 06:31

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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