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Trast posted:In a nutshell she breaks into Arkhem to spring her boyfriend and runs into the Joker. Joker tries to manipulate her again. She is having none of it. They throw down and she wins, walks away telling him she'll never let him abuse her again. Amanda Conner seems to be taking Harley away from that horrible, abusive relationship that nerds have disgustingly fetishized. It was cute in Batman: The Animated Series, but since then both characters have become needlessly edgy and gratuitous. It's not fun, it's not humorous even in a dark sense, it's just uncomfortable and cheap. Relevant images from Conner's Harley Quinn and Power Girl #4:  
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Feb 18, 2016 22:43
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Trast posted:In a nutshell she breaks into Arkhem to spring her boyfriend and runs into the Joker. Joker tries to manipulate her again. She is having none of it. They throw down and she wins, walks away telling him she'll never let him abuse her again. Oh. Again? This is like the fifth time she's done that. Beefstew posted:It was cute in Batman: The Animated Series, It was uncomfortable and creepy even in B:TAS. It was never cute because he was always abusive and cruel and they even had episodes about that. (As well as about Harley leaving the Joker because that plot ain't anything new so I have no idea why nerds would be angry over it.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 22:45
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I wouldn't mind if every issue of Harley Quinn had a scene where she says how toxic was that relationship and how hosed up are some people for finding it "sexy".
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Feb 18, 2016 22:49
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Adnor posted:I wouldn't mind if every issue of Harley Quinn had a scene where she says how toxic was that relationship and how hosed up are some people for finding it "sexy". Yeah, I have no problem with calling a toxic relationship toxic, it's just not anything new. I was expecting something like... unexpected.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:51
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BC is saying Sam Humphries is now DC exclusive too. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/18/sam-humphries-signs-exclusively-to-dc-comics-ahead-of-rebirth/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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Feb 18, 2016 22:51
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Yeah I kinda hope DC just keeps the two separated, both in JP/AC's thing and in New Suicide Squad (the comic, not the film where I'm pretty sure we're too late for that). It's way too late to walk back their relation/Joker to being anything less than abusive, and Harley works fine as a character independent from the Joker.
burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 22:52
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I don't mind Harley and the Joker. I think it's cute. But at the same time I understand that with the progressive direction we're going in it's probably for the best it be dealt with one way or the other, I guess; I would have rather they stay in their relationship but be portrayed as equals who both give exactly as good as they get. I don't like Perfect Wacky Female Deadpool.
WickedHate fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 22:57
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WickedHate posted:I don't mind Harley and the Joker. I think it's cute. You think a completely dysfunctional relationship, based on physical and mental abuse is cute?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:01
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bobkatt013 posted:You think a completely dysfunctional relationship, based on physical and mental abuse is cute? It's not real my dude. WickedHate posted:I would have rather they stay in their relationship but be portrayed as equals who both give exactly as good as they get.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:05
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DrProsek posted:Yeah I kinda hope DC just keeps the two separated, both in JP/AC's thing and in New Suicide Squad (the comic, not the film where I'm pretty sure we're too late for that). It's way too late to walk back their relation/Joker to being anything less than abusive, and Harley works fine as a character independent from the Joker. Pretty sure JP/AC is their own little pocket universe that DC is leaving alone due to sales and Palmiotti and Didio going way back. That being said I'm having fun laughing at the nerds freaking out about Harley whoopin' on Joker and calling him out for what he is.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:06
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bobkatt013 posted:You think a completely dysfunctional relationship, based on physical and mental abuse is cute? I think they mean the basic "clownman/lady crime duo/lovers" thing, the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing. That part's fine, it's just the grimm dark Joker being really abusive that makes it really bad.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:07
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DrProsek posted:I think they mean the basic "clownman/lady crime duo/lovers" thing, the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing. That part's fine, it's just the grimm dark Joker being really abusive that makes it really bad. So the way it has always been? It has never been a thing of equals from him loving with her head so much that she joined him.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:08
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WickedHate posted:It's not real my dude. That doesn't make it less creepy or hosed up? DrProsek posted:I think they mean the basic "clownman/lady crime duo/lovers" thing, the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing. That part's fine, it's just the grimm dark Joker being really abusive that makes it really bad. That has literally been the character from the start. They have never ever been "Bonnie and Clyde." Like it's an ongoing thing that Harley alongside the Joker is massively 'less' than she is on her both in hero and villain terms. Edit: Like "Bonnie and Clyde" is more like the Harley/Ivy relationship than Harley/Joker.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:09
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DrProsek posted:I think they mean the basic "clownman/lady crime duo/lovers" thing, the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing. congrats, you just got why so many people are into the Harley and Ivy dynamic
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Feb 18, 2016 23:10
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In Batman the Animated series I don't remember it being as bad as it got in the comics. Then again my memory of BtAS is really hazy, I could easily be very wrong  E: ElNarez posted:congrats, you just got why so many people are into the Harley and Ivy dynamic Oh yeah, other good reason to break up Harley and Joker: Harley and Ivy was way better. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 23:11
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DrProsek posted:In Batman the Animated series I do t remember it being as bad as it got in the comics. Mad Love literally features Harley coming close to killing Batman and that pissing the Joker off so much he almost murders her, while Batman 'wins' by pushing Harley to realize the Joker is using her and taunts Joker with the fact that Harley almost killed him.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:13
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ElNarez posted:congrats, you just got why so many people are into the Harley and Ivy dynamic I've always found that pairing to be queerbaiting at best and fanservice at worst. Ivy is just so bland and not a good fit for Harley, even if they try to do it better now that it's a Thing. ImpAtom posted:They have never ever been "Bonnie and Clyde." Occasionally, and they should be more is my main point.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:13
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ImpAtom posted:That doesn't make it less creepy or hosed up?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:14
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ImpAtom posted:Mad Love literally features Harley coming close to killing Batman and that pissing the Joker off so much he almost murders her, while Batman 'wins' by pushing Harley to realize the Joker is using her and taunts Joker with the fact that Harley almost killed him.  see I remember the Harley almost killing Batman part and then just kinda forgot that latter part.Never mind, it's just always been hosed up since day 1.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:14
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WickedHate posted:I've always found that pairing to be queerbaiting at best and fanservice at worst. Ivy is just so bland and not a good fit for Harley, even if they try to do it better now that it's a Thing. They have been doing it since TAS. It is nothing new, and it worked really good then. You felt really bad for Harley as she acted like a battered women.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:16
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bobkatt013 posted:They have been doing it since TAS. It is nothing new, and it worked really good then. You felt really bad for Harley as she acted like a battered women. I know when it started, and either Paul Dini or Bruce Timm or both are known to be fetishistic with female characters. It's just forced and not all that interesting. My ideal situation for Harley and the Joker both is the song Killers in Love by Tub Ring. Hell, it'd help give the Joker an identity outside Batman too and probably make him less stupidly grim. People would mind it a lot less if they stopped writing Harley as such a submissive victim in their relationship instead of someone who can stand toe to toe with him from the start instead of going through the whole Gloria Gaynor I Will Survive thing first and severing the relationship entirely.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:24
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WickedHate posted:Occasionally, and they should be more is my main point. I literally can't think of an example. The Harley Quinn/Joker relationship is defined by being unhealthy and abusive and nobody has really deviated from that much. At best they have an adventure where Harley is his sidekick without him beating her or tormenting her which is still not a healthy relationship. Also it's kind of gross to want to 'fix' an abusive relationship instead of applauding a woman getting away from one. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 23:26
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Harley is so much better away from the Joker.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:29
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Shut up. Geoff Johns is talking Rebirth. http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/exclusive-geoff-johns-details-rebirth-plan-seeks-to-restore-legacy-to-dc-universe quote:"Rebirth" starts in "DC Universe Rebirth," an 80-page one-shot scheduled for release on May 25, written by Johns and illustrated by artists Ethan Van Sciver, Ivan Reis, Gary Frank and Phil Jimenez. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOFXITBuLMA He specifically mentioned Birds of Prey and JSA in this video. Johns is also leaving Justice League. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 23:34
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Hey, we're getting the original numbering back on Action and Detective. Haven't followed those in years but nice, I like that.ImpAtom posted:Also it's kind of gross to want to 'fix' an abusive relationship instead of applauding a woman getting away from one. I've been in multiple abusive situations including CSA so get off my back? I think I have the perspective to know what I'm talking about. I relate to Harley a lot and I just see a version of her relationship with the Joker where they work together instead of her being submissive to him. Furthermore, WickedHate posted:It's not real my dude.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:35
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Even if I was right about their relation being fine in BtAS (which to be clear, I was not) their relation in comics has been so bad for so long there's no rehabilitating it, and both characters have better pairings (Harley and Ivy, Joker and being in comics I don't read).
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Feb 18, 2016 23:36
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WickedHate posted:I've been in multiple abusive situations including CSA so get off my back? I think I have the perspective to know what I'm talking about. I relate to Harley a lot and I just see a version of her relationship with the Joker where they work together instead of her being submissive to him. It not being real literally doesn't matter when the story is explicitly about it being an abusive relationship. Like you can make arguments about Bella and Edward or whatever being escapist fantasy but Joker and Harley is about an abusive boyfriend and a story that ends with "and he became better and treated her like an equal" is pretty hosed up in a bad way.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:39
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Is the actual announcement being streamed anywhere?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:40
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ImpAtom posted:It not being real literally doesn't matter when the story is explicitly about it being an abusive relationship. Like you can make arguments about Bella and Edward or whatever being escapist fantasy but Joker and Harley is about an abusive boyfriend and a story that ends with "and he became better and treated her like an equal" is pretty hosed up in a bad way. Yeah, the message of "stay in this hosed up abusive relationship and it'll all work out!" is gross.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:42
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ImpAtom posted:It not being real literally doesn't matter when the story is explicitly about it being an abusive relationship. Like you can make arguments about Bella and Edward or whatever being escapist fantasy but Joker and Harley is about an abusive boyfriend and a story that ends with "and he became better and treated her like an equal" is pretty hosed up in a bad way. No, I agree with that. It shouldn't magically get better, that would be unimaginably lovely. I'm saying there should be a version-be it alternate continuity, retcon, reboot, whatever-where they've always been tormenting each other exactly as hard if not more so than people traditionally depict Joker towards Harley alone, including extended periods where Harley is explicitly the one in full control.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:44
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WickedHate posted:No, I agree with that. It shouldn't magically get better, that would be unimaginably lovely. I'm saying there should be a version-be it alternate continuity, retcon, reboot, whatever-where they've always been tormenting each other exactly as hard if not more so than people traditionally depict Joker towards Harley alone, including extended periods where Harley is explicitly the one in full control.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:46
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Teenage Fansub posted:Shut up. Geoff Johns is talking Rebirth. So Conner, Jay, Wally, Jessica, Kara. Any idea on who the hooded guy is?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:46
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That ignores one of the most important elements of the relationship, that he hosed up her mind so that she left her job and her old life for him. Joker is also a monster, and if they want to keep her as an antihero it makes sense to keep her away from him.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:49
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Teenage Fansub posted:Shut up. Geoff Johns is talking Rebirth. DC staying at 2.99 is kinda huge, and way smart? Whatever the rest of Rebirth is, that's one Cool and Good move.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:50
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:So Conner, Jay, Wally, Jessica, Kara. Green Arrow?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:53
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bobkatt013 posted:That ignores one of the most important elements of the relationship, that he hosed up her mind so that she left her job and her old life for him. Joker is also a monster, and if they want to keep her as an antihero it makes sense to keep her away from him. And she's way happier and cooler than when she was a listless graduate stuck in a career path she didn't really care about with a job at the shittiest place on the planet. Joker could be an anti hero too, it's not like he hasn't varied wildly depending on the era+writer anyway. I'm surprised they didn't make him their Deadpool, really. Harley not being an anti hero isn't that bad anyway, as long as they don't keep up with Joker being so over the top grimdark. redbackground posted:That sounds even worse. What, do you feel sorry for the Joker? WickedHate fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 23:54
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WickedHate posted:What, do you feel sorry for the Joker?
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Feb 18, 2016 23:57
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redbackground posted:I don't see how a mutually antagonistic relationship is a best-case scenario for Harl. Because it's also mutually loving. It's weird, sure, but comics are great for exploring concepts like that.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:59
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WickedHate posted:Hey, we're getting the original numbering back on Action and Detective. Haven't followed those in years but nice, I like that.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:01
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It took me like 21 loving years to realize that Harley and Ivy happened at all because it's a loving pun.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:05
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