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I think I'm probably going to mix and match different parts of 1st ed and 2nd ed. I was quite a big fan of the old oath crafting rules, and I defiantly prefer the old Harvest merit and rules.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:37
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Attorney at Funk posted:So you're saying Changelings should have to kidnap and enslave people? They should benefit supernaturally (though not psychologically or morally or w/e) from making the world more Arcadian and getting normal people caught up in fantastical or archetypical goings-on, IMO. So, rather than straight-up anger, maybe a Summer Court changeling draws power from instances in which people stand up to bullies or otherwise face down antagonists - which, at the extreme, could lead a changeling to play the role of a villain or monster.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:41
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Ferrinus posted:They should benefit supernaturally (though not psychologically or morally or w/e) from making the world more Arcadian and getting normal people caught up in fantastical or archetypical goings-on, IMO. So, rather than straight-up anger, maybe a Summer Court changeling draws power from instances in which people stand up to bullies or otherwise face down antagonists - which, at the extreme, could lead a changeling to play the role of a villain or monster. This has precisely the problem that a more vampiric model avoids, though - it's purely reactive. None of these scenes are about the changeling; the player-characters present as voyeurs, manipulators, inexplicably significant characters in other people's stories. The only thing the changeling who gathers glamour this way adds to a story is an intrusive sense of genre savvy. It'd turn Changeling into Beast.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:48
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Attorney at Funk posted:This has precisely the problem that a more vampiric model avoids, though - it's purely reactive. None of these scenes are about the changeling; the player-characters present as voyeurs, manipulators, inexplicably significant characters in other people's stories. The only thing the changeling who gathers glamour this way adds to a story is an intrusive sense of genre savvy. It'd turn Changeling into Beast. It isn't intrusive genre savvy for an Autumn changeling to spin deliberate mysteries, or something - it's just genre savvy, because Arcadia is a place of stories and stories have genres. I'm also not seeing how it's reactive for a Changeling to create situations in which they can procure glamour, or how it becomes more or less reactive if the glamour transfer itself causes harm to people above and beyond the circumstances that allow for it. It would hit some of the notes Beast tries and fails to hit for changelings to depend on context rather than on feeling for their power, but it's actually appropriate for a fae creature to care more about the story than they do about the material underpinnings.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:56
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Ferrinus posted:It isn't intrusive genre savvy for an Autumn changeling to spin deliberate mysteries, or something - it's just genre savvy, because Arcadia is a place of stories and stories have genres. What does "Arcadia is a place of stories" mean, and where did you get it from? Ferrinus posted:I'm also not seeing how it's reactive for a Changeling to create situations in which they can procure glamour, or how it becomes more or less reactive if the glamour transfer itself causes harm to people above and beyond the circumstances that allow for it. In the former case, the action that produces Glamour - the one that drives the story - isn't yours. In the latter, it is. It's the difference between getting fed as a baby does (or more precisely tricking some dupe into feeding you, as a cat does) and just, feeding.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:07
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Attorney at Funk posted:What does "Arcadia is a place of stories" mean, and where did you get it from? Mage, obviously...? quote:In the former case, the action that produces Glamour - the one that drives the story - isn't yours. In the latter, it is. It's the difference between getting fed as a baby does (or more precisely tricking some dupe into feeding you, as a cat does) and just, feeding. Wait, that's not true. In all cases - 1E's formulation, the 2E rules we're talking about, a hypothetical feeding scheme that doesn't swing on emotions at all - it's other people doing or feeling things that produces Glamour. None of their proactivity swings on what percent of the dupe's paycheck goes to cat food.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:15
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Ferrinus posted:Mage, obviously...? Why would Changelings act like what Acanthus say the Fae are, rather than what their actual experience of the Durance was? Ferrinus posted:Wait, that's not true. In all cases - 1E's formulation, the 2E rules we're talking about, a hypothetical feeding scheme that doesn't swing on emotions at all - it's other people doing or feeling things that produces Glamour. None of their proactivity swings on what percent of the dupe's paycheck goes to cat food. No, if your feeding has material consequences on the people you're feeding from, you're responsible for them. If you're just passively soaking them up and nobody can tell, then it doesn't actually matter if you're in the scene or not. I'm not sure what that last sentence has to do with anything.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:19
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Attorney at Funk posted:Why would Changelings act like what Acanthus say the Fae are, rather than what their actual experience of the Durance was? Those two don't conflict. quote:No, if your feeding has material consequences on the people you're feeding from, you're responsible for them. If you're just passively soaking them up and nobody can tell, then it doesn't actually matter if you're in the scene or not. I'm not sure what that last sentence has to do with anything. That doesn't make you any more proactive, though, or expose any structural flaws in the original version of the mechanic. If you feed off emotion you're still going to hang around people feeling that emotion or, if pressed, push them into feeling that emotion. There was nothing wrong with that that's fixed by the people you hung around being psychically drained in the aftermath.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:28
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Ferrinus posted:Those two don't conflict. They don't conflict, but they don't inherently support each other either. Even if we stipulate that Changeling's Fae and Mage's Fae are the same entities (which IMO isn't necessarily true for the same reason Mage's angels and demons aren't the angels and demons of the rest of the WoD at large) there's not really any textual support that the experience Changelings have of Arcadia (which is what'd inform their behavior and relation to it once they got out) corresponds at all to Awakened theory about the Kingdom of Enchantment or even the story beats of an Acanthus Awakening. Changelings don't think or act like the people who write fairy tales. Ferrinus posted:That doesn't make you any more proactive, though, or expose any structural flaws in the original version of the mechanic. If you feed off emotion you're still going to hang around people feeling that emotion or, if pressed, push them into feeling that emotion. There was nothing wrong with that that's fixed by the people you hung around being psychically drained in the aftermath. There is: it lets you tell stories about the consequences of your magic which don't exist if there aren't any.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:33
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Attorney at Funk posted:They don't conflict, but they don't inherently support each other either. Even if we stipulate that Changeling's Fae and Mage's Fae are the same entities (which IMO isn't necessarily true for the same reason Mage's angels and demons aren't the angels and demons of the rest of the WoD at large) there's not really any textual support that the experience Changelings have of Arcadia (which is what'd inform their behavior and relation to it once they got out) corresponds at all to Awakened theory about the Kingdom of Enchantment or even the story beats of an Acanthus Awakening. Please don't troll. quote:Changelings don't think or act like the people who write fairy tales. Well, the Changeling-facing Arcadia is a place that's ruled by dream-logic and contracts between impossibly powerful and insanely insane feudal lords, lords who for whatever reason believe it's important that you join and play some role in their demesnes - that of a reading lamp or a gladiator or whatever. A changeling's Keeper didn't, as far as I'm aware, feed off the ecstasy or anguish or other emotion experienced by the changeling as they lived through their durance - they actually, literally wanted someone to do whatever job the changeling was doing, or to occupy whatever role the changeling was occupying. So, insofar as changelings need something from humans in parallel with what keepers need from changelings, it should involve humans playing a part of some kind, or flattering or legitimating the changeling as they take on some kind of role. "Stories" is useful shorthand here, and doesn't need to be how the characters themselves think about it. quote:There is: it lets you tell stories about the consequences of your magic which don't exist if there aren't any. Yeah, but that would be equally true if Contracts caused paradox or something. Making changelings tangibly parasitic isn't a good move, even if it'd be preferable not to leave things as they are.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:44
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I think I prefer Changelings to actually have this impact the world around them when they feed on emotion. It reinforces the fact that being a Changeling is an ongoing hosed up situation to be in, rather than just a traumatic origin story.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:48
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There were entire sections of 1E Changeling sourcebooks dedicated to Talespinning; how you can gently caress with narrative and how the narrative might gently caress with you back. Like the key danger was the risk that you might go full Drosselmeyer and be all "DANCE TO MY WHIMS, PUPPETS" So it's not just a mage-Arcadia thing.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:48
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Ferrinus posted:Please don't troll. It's true, and your followup indicates you agree with me: Ferrinus posted:So, insofar as changelings need something from humans in parallel with what keepers need from changelings, it should involve humans playing a part of some kind, or flattering or legitimating the changeling as they take on some kind of role. "Stories" is useful shorthand here, and doesn't need to be how the characters themselves think about it. It's actually dangerous to conflate "role" and "story" - Changelings (and Changeling as a game line) aren't generally concerned with the structure or nature of narrative itself. The Changeling's concern is the same as any other survivor of trauma or escaped prisoner or freed slave: to what extent can they now claim ownership over their own lives, their own stories? How do they try to do that? That's what Talespinning and Pledges and Contracts all represent: claims and assertions of agency. There are lots of ways to make that happen, but if that way ends up putting the Changeling draws power by subordinating themselves to other people's narrative significance, then that's an insufficient (and frankly kind of ugly) extrapolation of the core theme. Ferrinus posted:Yeah, but that would be equally true if Contracts caused paradox or something. Making changelings tangibly parasitic isn't a good move, even if it'd be preferable not to leave things as they are. Like we said, there's lots of ways you can do it, and this is an improvement on the way things are. I agree it could be better, but heck that's true of all of 2E's good ideas or noble efforts.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:53
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Cabbit posted:I think I prefer Changelings to actually have this impact the world around them when they feed on emotion. It reinforces the fact that being a Changeling is an ongoing hosed up situation to be in, rather than just a traumatic origin story. It'd make more sense if they drove people crazy or let the fed-upon emotions run wild or something, though, than if they ate the emotions such that the emotions were now gone.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:53
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unseenlibrarian posted:There were entire sections of 1E Changeling sourcebooks dedicated to Talespinning; how you can gently caress with narrative and how the narrative might gently caress with you back. Like the key danger was the risk that you might go full Drosselmeyer and be all "DANCE TO MY WHIMS, PUPPETS" I could swear that was not the only thing, though; I think it was mentioned in the main book proper but there weren't any rules sustaining it that I recall.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:53
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Ferrinus posted:It'd make more sense if they drove people crazy or let the fed-upon emotions run wild or something, though, than if they ate the emotions such that the emotions were now gone. Yeah, I can see that. But if every Changeling could like stoke up emotions to a fever pitch whenever they wanted a nosh that could be a bit much. Being able to turn somebody into a raving madman or whatever seems like something that should cost resources, not restore them.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:58
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Ferrinus posted:It'd make more sense if they drove people crazy or let the fed-upon emotions run wild or something, though, than if they ate the emotions such that the emotions were now gone. Cabbit posted:Being able to turn somebody into a raving madman or whatever seems like something that should cost resources, not restore them.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:58
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Attorney at Funk posted:It's actually dangerous to conflate "role" and "story" - Changelings (and Changeling as a game line) aren't generally concerned with the structure or nature of narrative itself. The Changeling's concern is the same as any other survivor of trauma or escaped prisoner or freed slave: to what extent can they now claim ownership over their own lives, their own stories? How do they try to do that? None of these involve subordinating yourself to others' significance (and it's not like a keeper subordinates themselves to a changeling's significance when they inflict the durance). quote:Like we said, there's lots of ways you can do it, and this is an improvement on the way things are. I agree it could be better, but heck that's true of all of 2E's good ideas or noble efforts. Inflicting Reticent is actually worse than the default of the glamour harvest being 100% victimless, is the thing. It was a distinctive element of the changeling condition that their magic didn't have any automatic deleterious consequences on mortals either in its function or in its requirements. I don't think that has to stay true, but it's better than changelings as psychic vampires, which doesn't really square with anything else about arcadia or the fae in CtL. If that was their best idea, they should've just left things as they were.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:02
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I would much prefer that instead of, or in addition to, providing concealment from Huntsmen, Bargains were a means of gaining Glamour. The bulk of fairy lore talks about them getting power out of little rituals and purposes like that, through tokens such as leaving out milk or the like. I don't mind though the Reticent Condition in idea, it's way too powerful as it is but the idea that in order to power fairy magic they have to take something away is alright with me. Everything in fairy tales is about sacrifice of this or that. I would prefer though perhaps more robust ideas around that. It might be interesting that in invoking and feeling the emotions, you also take away the core of that emotion. Take away someone's fear so that you can turn it into a spell of autumn leaves, or destroy an object of someone's desire so that you might make something even more beautiful. Sounds a bit finicky to actually implement though.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:03
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Ferrinus posted:None of these involve subordinating yourself to others' significance (and it's not like a keeper subordinates themselves to a changeling's significance when they inflict the durance). They do, because it means that the driving action in the scene isn't yours. And you're right that Keepers broadly don't - that's why forcing Changelings to do it is really bleak and unpleasant. Ferrinus posted:Inflicting Reticent is actually worse than the default of the glamour harvest being 100% victimless, is the thing. It was a distinctive element of the changeling condition that their magic didn't have any automatic deleterious consequences on mortals either in its function or in its requirements. I don't think that has to stay true, but it's better than changelings as psychic vampires, which doesn't really square with anything else about arcadia or the fae in CtL. If that was their best idea, they should've just left things as they were. I don't think it has to be true, and indeed I don't think it was to Changeling's credit that it was true - the fact that Changelings were ultimately benign and no one else had to care about them was a weakness of the line. Being distinctive isn't a virtue if what distinguishes you makes you less compelling.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:10
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Attorney at Funk posted:They do, because it means that the driving action in the scene isn't yours. And you're right that Keepers broadly don't - that's why forcing Changelings to do it is really bleak and unpleasant. I'm saying that a changeling's means of acquiring magic power should call to mind that of one of the true fae (who don't just soak up people's feelings, whether benignly or deleteriously). quote:I don't think it has to be true, and indeed I don't think it was to Changeling's credit that it was true - the fact that Changelings were ultimately benign and no one else had to care about them was a weakness of the line. Being distinctive isn't a virtue if what distinguishes you makes you less compelling. I wouldn't say being benign and being uncompelling go hand in hand, especially not such that any version of a changeling that isn't benign has the edge on the 1E default.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:19
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Ferrinus posted:I'm saying that a changeling's means of acquiring magic power should call to mind that of one of the true fae (who don't just soak up people's feelings, whether benignly or deleteriously). They also don't trick people into impromptu LARPs - they're kidnappers and torturers. Ferrinus posted:I wouldn't say being benign and being uncompelling go hand in hand, especially not such that any version of a changeling that isn't benign has the edge on the 1E default. I would say that. In fact, I am saying that.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:20
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Ferrinus posted:I'm saying that a changeling's means of acquiring magic power should call to mind that of one of the true fae (who don't just soak up people's feelings, whether benignly or deleteriously). Preying on some poor, random soul because they have something you want, leaving them emotionally damaged, doesn't call to mind the true fae?
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Feb 19, 2016 00:21
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Attorney at Funk posted:They also don't trick people into impromptu LARPs - they're kidnappers and torturers. They dragoon people into LARPs, though. quote:I would say that. In fact, I am saying that. Yeah, but it's wrong! It's not always correct or appropriate to make things more ruinous and sinister. Cabbit posted:Preying on some poor, random soul because they have something you want, leaving them emotionally damaged, doesn't call to mind the true fae? I don't think passively making people around you listless calls to mind the true fae, no.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:25
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Ferrinus posted:Please don't troll. This is counter to the text as presented in Equinox Road; the Keeper depends on the changeling having a relationship of struggle with the Keeper. A Keeper doesn't need an extra pair of hands or w/e in the land that, secretly, is the keeper all along. If you accept that you can define the strength of a relationship by the depth of feeling, it then explains why Changelings* only care about the total result of their harvest, and don't spend Anger Glamour differently than Fear Glamour. And if you have a hard-on for harvesting glamour or other valuables by making stories with your changeling, you use the Dream rules as printed. It works well, in my experience. *non-court changelings
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Feb 19, 2016 00:46
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Attorney at Funk posted:Making Changelings explicitly monstrous is an improvement on the prior edition, because it gives the Changeling condition some story hooks that aren't purely reactive. Can I just step in and say that, while I agree that Changeling definitely needs more proactive story hooks and it appears 2e is giving them some (especially in regards to dreams, huzzah!), this is totally not the way to do it and the rules for feeding at-present already gave them a small degree of proactivity? That was one of the big and awesome parts of the Courts, after all; the Seasonal Courts gave you ways that you specialized, and thus caused Changelings to alter their lives around emphasizing and maximizing whatever emotion it was they hungered for most. Finding comfort in your coping mechanism was delightful, and it had this lovely double-edge of simultaneously being defined by your traumas even as you escaped them. Being turned into a psychic vampire (who is worse than an actual, literal psychic vampire) who subjects random people to a week or more of what amounts to emotional deadening and depression is horrifying. It does the biggest disservice I can think of to Changeling and guts what is one of the very few pieces of beauty in its already poorly balanced equation of beautiful madness.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:48
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Attorney at Funk posted:They don't conflict, but they don't inherently support each other either. Even if we stipulate that Changeling's Fae and Mage's Fae are the same entities (which IMO isn't necessarily true for the same reason Mage's angels and demons aren't the angels and demons of the rest of the WoD at large) No "necessarily" about it. They're not the same.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:52
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Dave Brookshaw posted:No "necessarily" about it. 
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Feb 19, 2016 00:56
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Axelgear posted:Can I just step in and say that, while I agree that Changeling definitely needs more proactive story hooks and it appears 2e is giving them some (especially in regards to dreams, huzzah!), this is totally not the way to do it and the rules for feeding at-present already gave them a small degree of proactivity?  Additionally, it's kinda weird how this affects the Courts' feeding results. Like, the end result of an Autumn Courtier giving someone the scare of their life and a story to tell all their friends, it just results in the same emotionally dead zombieman you'd get from feeding on a funeral procession. On top of not really liking the direction it takes Changelings, it's also way more boring IMO.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:01
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I would argue that the original method of harvesting glamour was faulty because it was dull. It failed the, "and nothing happens" test of narrative drama. Sure you could start a fight or seduce somebody to get Glamour but for the most part it was just was justifiable to hang around places where emotions like that were prevalent and just sort of chill, man. I don't argue this because I think Changelings need to be a net negative on mankind at large but rather because, from a game design perspective, it's stupid to have a mechanic that has no real fail condition or chance to evoke drama. When a Vampire feeds there's always an immediate tension - Will the Vampire kill again? Not every game needs that kind of drama and I would even argue that 'emotional husk' Changelings are a somewhat uninuitive way of getting there but it's better than, 'and nothing happens'. Creating context and stories would have been much cooler though. I might just do that instead.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:21
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Is it really necessary that you have a dramatic narrative every time you get your magic points back? I mean even in Vampire after the first feeding scene everyone just kind of handwaves it so they can get on with the story, in my experience.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:25
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Gilok posted:Is it really necessary that you have a dramatic narrative every time you get your magic points back? Is it necessary? gently caress no. But it's pointless to have a mechanic with virtualy no potential for drama or no intrinsic tension. It's the same reason you don't roll to get out of bed or drive to work. Those things can be tense if their's a demon in your room or your car turns into a dragon on the way to work, but there's no intrinsic tension. If you were going to go that route it'd just say you refill your magic points by hanging out with humans between scenes and don't stress the whole 'roll to harvest' thing. But I think you can build a something that at least has a potential to create drama. Vampires who feed while low on blood can frenzy, which isn't something you can just handwave.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:28
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Gerund posted:This is counter to the text as presented in Equinox Road; the Keeper depends on the changeling having a relationship of struggle with the Keeper. A Keeper doesn't need an extra pair of hands or w/e in the land that, secretly, is the keeper all along. Well, yeah, but is the important thing the feelings, or is the important thing the struggle? If somehow, because of incredible composure, a kidnapped changeling was completely calm all the while their keeper was melting down, would that ruin things? Dave Brookshaw posted:No "necessarily" about it. Haha, of course they aren't 
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 01:40
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Dave Brookshaw posted:No "necessarily" about it. That's cool, though ultimately my point would stand even if they were - Arcadia could be a single specific real place that both Mages and Changelings access and the games'd still suffer if Changelings reacted to it the same way Mages did. Ferrinus posted:Well, yeah, but is the important thing the feelings, or is the important thing the struggle? If somehow, because of incredible composure, a kidnapped changeling was completely calm all the while their keeper was melting down, would that ruin things? Dissociating that strongly from your feelings is a really common emotional response in that kind of situation.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:46
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While we're talking about odd changes to Changeling 2.0, what the hell is up with the Gates of Horn and Ivory thing? I get the idea is that Changeling physically enter dreams now, so the logical follow up to this is to dream the Changeling has to physically be there, but it's just such a weird change to make in general.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:00
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Ferrinus posted:Well, yeah, but is the important thing the feelings, or is the important thing the struggle? If somehow, because of incredible composure, a kidnapped changeling was completely calm all the while their keeper was melting down, would that ruin things? That's way above my pay grade, aka depends on the game your ST wants to run. The idea that a changeling could go completely emotionless during your Durance sounds like an Elemental coping mechanism which, well, I'm not the psychologist to define the difference between True Emotionlessness and being reduced in scope because of trauma, the shadow of emotion that should exist creating as equal an impact as having the emotions in place. I mean, would Composure 100 character be taken by a Keeper in the first place? Literal Robots don't get Changeling Templates added on. Shouldn't the struggle of a Durance be defined by the emotional turmoil? It certainly can't be defined by material measurements in a realm that is defined by having no material whatsoever.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:03
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Gerund posted:That's way above my pay grade, aka depends on the game your ST wants to run. The idea that a changeling could go completely emotionless during your Durance sounds like an Elemental coping mechanism which, well, I'm not the psychologist to define the difference between True Emotionlessness and being reduced in scope because of trauma, the shadow of emotion that should exist creating as equal an impact as having the emotions in place. I'm not actually asking rhetorically here and am not sure myself. Like, I know that changelings can eventually become true fae, but I'm pretty sure that every single true fae isn't a former changeling and also that a prospective keeper isn't thinking "hmm, we could use some new blood around here in one or two hundred years' time" when it snatches up a new flutist or beekeeper. As you say, dissociation and withdrawal actually define an entire segment of the splat. So, does it make sense that strong emotion is the source of faerie magic? Generally this is an unfair question to ask, and if I wanted to analyze Changeling 1E on its own it'd be more correct to take as given that changelings (maybe not true fae, but certainly changelings) power their contracts with energy drawn from human feeling, and go from there. But since things are up in the air in the move to a new edition, I'm inclined to wonder aloud whether there's a stronger connection between changelings drawing glamour from emotions and anything we've seen true fae do.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:12
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Mendrian posted:Not every game needs that kind of drama and I would even argue that 'emotional husk' Changelings are a somewhat uninuitive way of getting there but it's better than, 'and nothing happens'. If I want to play something that sucks out people's essence to survive, I'll play vampire. When I play changeling I want to play a creature of myth fighting in (or against) his own legend, not "vampires but in the daylight". Yawgmoth fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 02:23
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Welp. Time to make my own changeling 2.0 I guess. Not surprised in the slightest by Hill loving this up though.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:53
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Mendrian posted:Is it necessary? gently caress no. But it's pointless to have a mechanic with virtualy no potential for drama or no intrinsic tension. It's the same reason you don't roll to get out of bed or drive to work. Those things can be tense if their's a demon in your room or your car turns into a dragon on the way to work, but there's no intrinsic tension. If you were going to go that route it'd just say you refill your magic points by hanging out with humans between scenes and don't stress the whole 'roll to harvest' thing. But you point out yourself that Changelings need to seek out their feedings and sometimes even create them themselves. There's plenty of room for drama in that. As has been noted, vampire feeding scenes often get handwaved or reduced to a roll even, but they don't have to, and Changeling scenes don't have to either. Changeling's drama is different to Vampire's. It's not about being a monstrous predator who might take an innocent life at the drop of a hat. Glamour serves a different role than Vitae, even if it's functionally another flavour of Magic Juice. When a Changeling feeds, it raises entirely different questions and emotions. Where does a Changeling feed? What do they specialize in? Why? What do they do when that "food source" is threatened, and how do they make more of it? The darkest drama usually comes particularly on those last two points, but all the rest build character; connections; hooks for drama.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:03
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