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holocaust bloopers posted:I started Declare by Tim Powers last night. I have no idea what to expect. A very good book
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Feb 19, 2016 01:26
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John Ringo falls directly into the "gently caress it, it'll make money" area of writing. He may like it, he may not, but basically he threw a book out there that was basically id on viagra and pcp, and it sold like hotcakes, and frankly he'd be dumb to stop writing because some people have issues with it. Are they bad books? No question about it. Have I read them? Nope. Will I? Nope. Do I fault the dude for finding a niche market that pays well? Nope. I put him in the same category as Chuck Tingle. Weird, hosed up books I am probably never gonna read, but I know someone is jerking off to right now.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:57
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The amount of time, effort and space dedicated to bad writers and their books in both this thread and the space opera one is baffling.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:10
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WarLocke posted:Ringo is a Bad Writer, but for what it's worth the Johansen's Worm stuff in the first book is as objectionable as the series gets. Do note here that his notorious collab with Tom Kratman (Director (Rule of Law) for the US Army War College's Peacekeeping and Stability Operations Institute, 2003-6), A Watch on the Rhine, was an Aldenata spin-off. So, probably best to slap a great big 'may contain Nazis' warning label on it.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:11
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). With a decent side of big-rear end engineering.
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occamsnailfile posted:So the Wild Cards are fanfic quality at best? Sherlock? A Study in Emerald? Most SF and most novels are "fanfic quality at best", that being "derisive term for writing I don't like." Are the KJA/Brian Herbert Dune novels in this category? People seemed to keep buying what they were selling for a long time. "A Study in Emerald" is a little interesting because it combines both Holmes and Lovecraft, which are two of a very few modern things that come close to: BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is because Arthurian romance was not the product of a single person, but a cycle of stories derived from myth and expanded on by later authors. This worked because they could approach these stories as a common cultural repertoire on which to draw. After Holmes and Lovecraft, I think you have to go digging a little more for examples, and all I've really been able to come up with has been Jane Austen (esp. Price&Prejudice) and Oz. Also I've got a copy of a book called Edmond Dantes, whose title page assures me it was written by Alexandre Dumas and is a sequel to The Count of Monte Cristo.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:21
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occamsnailfile posted:So the Wild Cards are fanfic quality at best? Are the KJA/Brian Herbert Dune novels in this category? I see you understood my point.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:48
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fritz posted:
I think there'd be more examples from more recent works except that our current copyright regime is holding so many things out of the public domain, and trademarks have further sewn up some things in a way that would make it really difficult or at least costly to defend in order to produce associated works. Conan, for example--the original stories are public domain, but the name "Conan" in reference to a variety of areas is trademarked, which means you'd have to publish as 'Barbarian Tales' or something. There were a fair number of (pretty lovely) Conan novels, and while the Howard stories are good, I am sure the novels helped keep the name alive. Tarzan is another one who is in the public domain but remains trademarked by Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. Dynamite comics tested this and ended up in an undisclosed settlement that didn't give us a solid ruling. Works whose authors died before 1946 are in the public domain as of this year, so we're getting some of the "golden age" SF (and that is probably what started those megapack e-book series) but quite a lot of material hasn't and won't leave copyright anytime soon. This has had a distinctly chilling effect on availability of mid-century material, and I think that has prevented the formation of more popular shared-story mythos and series. It has also created the disdain for 'fanfic' as being somehow illegitimate because the gatekeepers had not bestowed their blessing on it, and it technically violated copyright. That privilege was reserved for rapacious sellouts and grubbing heirs!
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Feb 19, 2016 03:55
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occamsnailfile posted:I also unironically love the Amber books but I don't care much for authors' wishes about other people not writing in 'their' universes--the idea that ideas can be 'owned' or that they should be is something I find really toxic. Zelazny's been dead for like twenty years but Amber is a surprisingly durable creation for all its many flaws. Where would our culture be if Malory said "no I don't want anyone else writing about King Arthur" and people listened to that? I think it would be disrespectful of the man while he was alive, but he doesn't own the path that culture takes in the future, and neither does Disney or anyone else. zelazny's opinions on fanfiction in the amber universe hold no weight, because the merlin books read exactly like fanfic of amber, if the fanfic writer had no worries about retconning the poo poo out of the original.
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Feb 19, 2016 05:26
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fritz posted:Also I've got a copy of a book called Edmond Dantes, whose title page assures me it was written by Alexandre Dumas and is a sequel to The Count of Monte Cristo.
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Feb 19, 2016 05:58
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Has anyone here actually read the Amber spinoff books, and are they worth the time for someone who enjoyed the rest of the series?
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Feb 19, 2016 06:02
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The Ninth Layer posted:Has anyone here actually read the Amber spinoff books, and are they worth the time for someone who enjoyed the rest of the series? I didn't even hate the Merlin books like so many others did, but the John Betancourt books are just steaming piles of crap. Unreadable.
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Feb 19, 2016 08:09
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fritz posted:"A Study in Emerald" is a little interesting because it combines both Holmes and Lovecraft, which are two of a very few modern things that come close to: I remember hearing, either from this thread or a friend of mine who's really into Sherlock Holmes, that "A Study in Emerald" is the only story in this one Holmes/Lovecraft collection to really nail the balance between them. Apparently it's not an easy thing to do.
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Feb 19, 2016 08:51
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'a colder war' is also sick fanfic. the night land has some really good fan fiction as well.
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Feb 19, 2016 08:54
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Solitair posted:I remember hearing, either from this thread or a friend of mine who's really into Sherlock Holmes, that "A Study in Emerald" is the only story in this one Holmes/Lovecraft collection to really nail the balance between them. Apparently it's not an easy thing to do. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 09:04
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Any suggestions for a SF/F book to pick for a book club of non-genre readers? Only real limitations is that it can't be overly long and that it be able to sustain some light discussion. Also, given the audience, something with crossover appeal would be nice -- in other words, something that would appeal to someone who would never normally choose to read SF/F. I'd previously picked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which went over pretty well and led to some interesting talk about gender and politics. I was considering The Left Hand of Darkness or The Parable of the Sower or maybe Wasp (which totally doesn't fit but which I have an unreasonable love for and think would lead to some good discussion). Another option is The Traitor Baru Cormorant, which I really enjoyed -- but I'm worried that it might not be accessible enough. Any thoughts/successful experiences of recommending to non-genre readers would be welcome.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:10
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uberkeyzer posted:Any suggestions for a SF/F book to pick for a book club of non-genre readers? Only real limitations is that it can't be overly long and that it be able to sustain some light discussion. Also, given the audience, something with crossover appeal would be nice -- in other words, something that would appeal to someone who would never normally choose to read SF/F. I'd previously picked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which went over pretty well and led to some interesting talk about gender and politics. I was considering The Left Hand of Darkness or The Parable of the Sower or maybe Wasp (which totally doesn't fit but which I have an unreasonable love for and think would lead to some good discussion). Another option is The Traitor Baru Cormorant, which I really enjoyed -- but I'm worried that it might not be accessible enough. Any thoughts/successful experiences of recommending to non-genre readers would be welcome. What about Planetfall? Definitely some discussion possible from that, but don't want to spoil too much.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:14
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Well, The Martian is generally regarded as SF for not-SF readers, although the quality of that book could be debated. I'd suggest Bridge of Birds because it's amazing and it's pretty short but not sure if farcical fairy tale is what you're looking for. Maybe American Gods? Lot of stuff to think about with regards to tradition, worship, culture and so on.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:17
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Koesj posted:The amount of time, effort and space dedicated to bad writers and their books in both this thread and the space opera one is baffling. It's a meta-commentary critique on the state of the genre: There's too much poo poo out there. (It's true!) Hobnob posted:arguably Jerry Pournell is a bad influence on Niven. is Pournell a good influence on anyone, ever? He seems like a guy who went off the deep end so long ago he's forgotten what the deep end even was.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:45
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You should read The Traitor Baru Cormorant and tell me what everyone thinks! (i'm sorry about the names)
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Feb 19, 2016 18:24
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General Battuta posted:You should read The Traitor Baru Cormorant and tell me what everyone thinks! (i'm sorry about the names)  e: Baru is honestly only nominally fantasy - there's no magic elves or unicorns or whatever, it's just set in a medieval setting verging on a semi-industrial revolution. It's much, much more about the characters and politics then any sort of fantastical 'quest'. And it will most certainly not leave you without things to discuss. 
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Feb 19, 2016 18:34
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fritz posted:
Dumas had a stable of licensed ghostwriters and collaborators working under him who turned out most of those. The Three Musketeers has four sequels, for example, of which maybe two are actually worth reading.
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Feb 19, 2016 19:04
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WarLocke posted:
It's a secondary world fantasy where you have to understand the worldbuilding through inference. Elves or no elves, that's some weapons-grade nerd poo poo.
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Feb 19, 2016 19:08
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Megazver posted:It's a secondary world fantasy where you have to understand the worldbuilding through inference. Elves or no elves, that's some weapons-grade nerd poo poo. Yeah but the request was for fantasy books that non-fantasy readers could get into. The 'fantasy' in Baru is all veneer; the meat of the book doesn't really rely on it at all - which makes it a great 'introduction to fantasy' option IMO. (Whether the rest of the content will give the readers nightmares is another thing  )
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Feb 19, 2016 19:13
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Megazver posted:It's a secondary world fantasy where you have to understand the worldbuilding through inference. Elves or no elves, that's some weapons-grade nerd poo poo. Yeah this was my worry -- if you're someone who reads James Michener or WW2 spy novels, is Baru Cormorant going to be too much of a hurdle? Like I said, I loved it, but I've also been reading SF for twenty years. Thanks for the suggestions -- I have not read Planetfall but I'll look into it. I was also considering the Ted Chiang short story collection.
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Feb 19, 2016 19:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Dumas had a stable of licensed ghostwriters and collaborators working under him who turned out most of those. The Three Musketeers has four sequels, for example, of which maybe two are actually worth reading. The Tom Clancy of his time.
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Feb 19, 2016 19:59
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Psion posted:It's a meta-commentary critique on the state of the genre: There's too much poo poo out there. That's Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. For newbie books, I recommend Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. It is a really good analysis of faith versus religion, and the fantasy setting only matters in that gods are real. Another possible choice is David Gemmell's Legend. It's an easy read, but it transcends the basic sword-and-sorcery motifs by making all the heroes flawed and the villain not really evil at all.
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Feb 19, 2016 20:10
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uberkeyzer posted:Any suggestions for a SF/F book to pick for a book club of non-genre readers? Only real limitations is that it can't be overly long and that it be able to sustain some light discussion. Also, given the audience, something with crossover appeal would be nice -- in other words, something that would appeal to someone who would never normally choose to read SF/F. I'd previously picked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which went over pretty well and led to some interesting talk about gender and politics. I was considering The Left Hand of Darkness or The Parable of the Sower or maybe Wasp (which totally doesn't fit but which I have an unreasonable love for and think would lead to some good discussion). Another option is The Traitor Baru Cormorant, which I really enjoyed -- but I'm worried that it might not be accessible enough. Any thoughts/successful experiences of recommending to non-genre readers would be welcome. Declare.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:07
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Solitair posted:I remember hearing, either from this thread or a friend of mine who's really into Sherlock Holmes, that "A Study in Emerald" is the only story in this one Holmes/Lovecraft collection to really nail the balance between them. Apparently it's not an easy thing to do. The issue, I think, is that "A Study in Emerald" was a Sherlock Holmes story in an H.P. Lovecraft setting, and every other loving thing in that collection was a Lovecraft story using the Holmes characters. "Emerald" is about a murder mystery in a London ruled by the Deep Ones; everything else is Holmes and Watson being accosted by fishmen and ramming things with boats, so to speak. This turns out to work pretty poorly.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:17
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General Battuta posted:You should read The Traitor Baru Cormorant and tell me what everyone thinks! (i'm sorry about the names) Hardcover copy sitting on my shelf right now. 
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Feb 19, 2016 22:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Dumas had a stable of licensed ghostwriters and collaborators working under him who turned out most of those. The Three Musketeers has four sequels, for example, of which maybe two are actually worth reading. It was this guy tho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Flagg
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Feb 19, 2016 22:27
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WarLocke posted::A medieval setting verging on a semi-industrial revolution. Early modern is what it's called in the historical field! ~1500 to ~1800.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:52
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uberkeyzer posted:Any suggestions for a SF/F book to pick for a book club of non-genre readers? Only real limitations is that it can't be overly long and that it be able to sustain some light discussion. Also, given the audience, something with crossover appeal would be nice -- in other words, something that would appeal to someone who would never normally choose to read SF/F. I'd previously picked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which went over pretty well and led to some interesting talk about gender and politics. I was considering The Left Hand of Darkness or The Parable of the Sower or maybe Wasp (which totally doesn't fit but which I have an unreasonable love for and think would lead to some good discussion). Another option is The Traitor Baru Cormorant, which I really enjoyed -- but I'm worried that it might not be accessible enough. Any thoughts/successful experiences of recommending to non-genre readers would be welcome. Canticle for Leibowitz might be fun. It's 3 different sections so it's easy to discuss each.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:42
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The Postmortal was pretty good, and isn't super crazy what with science magic and robopolitics or whatever. Depending on the types of other books you've read, To Say Nothing of the Dog is pretty great. Pastwatch was also something not-crazy that I thought was good. But really, the best books to introduce people to sf/f is either City & the City, The Gone-Away World, or Use of Weapons. You could always read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I suppose. You could go old school and find copies of the Stainless Steel Rat, too. You guys could just talk about how awesome and pulpy it was. Drifter fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 05:59
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Fifth Head of Cerberus isn't bad, either. It's a Serious Book that should provoke some good identity and post-colonialism discussions. It's not quite as mega dense and indecipherable as some of Wolfe's works, either.
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Feb 20, 2016 08:32
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Jedit posted:That's Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. it's also incorrect
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Feb 20, 2016 10:09
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Koesj posted:Early modern is what it's called in the historical field! ~1500 to ~1800. Thanks, I knew when posting that that it wasn't really the right way to say it, but I wasn't sure what was. A human heart posted:it's also incorrect Yeah, it's more like 95%+
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Feb 20, 2016 18:04
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Neurosis posted:It's not quite as mega dense and indecipherable as some of Wolfe's works, either. Thats not exactly a high bar.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:05
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Nebula nominations are out http://www.sfwa.org/2016/02/2015-nebula-awards-nominees-announced/ Novels: quote:Raising Caine, Charles E. Gannon (Baen)
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Feb 20, 2016 19:09
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Why is Baru Comorant not on that list? Ancillary Mercy was good, and the little of The Fifth Season I've read shows promise, at least...
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Feb 20, 2016 19:13
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A human heart posted:it's also incorrect There's a corollary to Sturgeon's Law that reads: "Including the remainder".
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Feb 20, 2016 20:21
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