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So assuming AJ Styles makes the Mania card (in a real match, not the preshow battle royal or whatever), when's the last time a guy worked the Tokyo Dome and Mania in the same calendar year? Has that even happened before?
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Feb 19, 2016 21:42
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natetimm posted:One of the recurring themes in a lot of the wrestler biographies and autobiographies I read on why the product is worse today is the lack of control individual wrestlers have over their characters. Giving more booking control obviously has its flaws as anyone can tell you, but taking chances on the creativity of your own workers seems to have a much lower down side. The New Day is a pretty good example of this, I think. I hope it leads to more "creative control" in the hands of performers that isn't just petulantly refusing to lose to people because of backstage politics and personal issues. The 50/50 booking and lack of star power these days shows that even guys being able to petulantly refuse to lose to people had a lower downside than the current situation.
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Feb 19, 2016 21:47
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Entertainment businesses are built on star power, but there's an unceasing tension between that and the company's incentive to make the company, not any individual, the main attraction. Vince McMahon has been very successful in this regard, and his company is the victim of his success.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 21:50
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Benne posted:So assuming AJ Styles makes the Mania card (in a real match, not the preshow battle royal or whatever), when's the last time a guy worked the Tokyo Dome and Mania in the same calendar year? Has that even happened before? Alundra Blayze in 1994. Defended the title at WMX against Leilani Kai and then dropped it to Bull Nakano later that year at the Dome. Also all the WWF guys on this card: http://www.profightdb.com/cards/ajpw/us-japan-wrestling-summit-5191.html Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 22:02
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Shiki Dan posted:Alundra Blayze in 1994. She lost it in November, not on the January 4th show.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:07
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Benne posted:So assuming AJ Styles makes the Mania card (in a real match, not the preshow battle royal or whatever), when's the last time a guy worked the Tokyo Dome and Mania in the same calendar year? Has that even happened before? Benne posted:Yeah sorry, I should've specified I meant the January 4 show. Oh, well in that case Vader did it in 1996 working the January 4 Dome Show and Wrestlemania XII. MagicCube fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 22:12
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Yeah sorry, I should've specified I meant the January 4 show.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:16
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ayn rand hand job posted:She lost it in November, not on the January 4th show. wrestling shows occurred at the dome on dates other than jan 4 during the 90s boom
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Feb 19, 2016 22:26
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MagicCube posted:Oh, well in that case Vader did it in 1996 working the January 4 Dome Show and Wrestlemania XII. I looked it up and he went from wrestling Inoki at the Dome to a 6-man curtain jerker at Mania. That's ... quite the downgrade.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:15
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Benne posted:I looked it up and he went from wrestling Inoki at the Dome to a 6-man curtain jerker at Mania. That's ... quite the downgrade. I doubt he would have gone if it wasn't same or better money.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:22
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On the one hand the WWE having absolute control over their wrestlers' personalities is obviously not a good deal, but on the other hand Hulk Hogan has dragged entire promotions down in his quest to never ever appear weak. Basically nobody in wrestling who gains power ever uses it responsibly.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:52
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Maxwell Lord posted:On the one hand the WWE having absolute control over their wrestlers' personalities is obviously not a good deal, but on the other hand Hulk Hogan has dragged entire promotions down in his quest to never ever appear weak. That was the fault of incompetent bosses more than Hogan. Ideally you want wrestlers with the leverage to protect the credibility and promotions with the balls and foresight to say no to them when it gets too much.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:17
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Austin and Big Show talked about that sort of thing on the podcast. When Austin asked Show to sum up his booking over the years, Show immediately said it was absolutely horrible. Big Show noted that while Austin was protective of his character, Show tried to be the ultimate team player and went along with basically everything asked of him, including all the stupid poo poo. That whole podcast was a good listen. Big Show getting trolled by Hogan and other WCW veterans in the airport until Sting clued him in had me cracking up.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:31
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When someone asks you to dance in a diaper on national television and you do it with an enthusiastic smile, you're basically the best company man ever.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:36
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Spermgod posted:That was the fault of incompetent bosses more than Hogan. Ideally you want wrestlers with the leverage to protect the credibility and promotions with the balls and foresight to say no to them when it gets too much. I'm gonna throw this out here. Was Bischoff giving Hogan creative control incompetent? Do you think Hogan would have signed a contract for any amount of money without also having contractual control over every facet of his career? (I originally thought it only extended to match results, but apparently the fallout from BatB demonstrated otherwise). Do you think WCW would have been better off without Hogan? Remember that for all his faults Hogan was the linchpin of the most successful period of the company's history.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:41
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At least from 96-98, Hulk's contributions to WCW were absolutely a net positive imo, and a big one
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Feb 20, 2016 02:46
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ChrisBTY posted:I'm gonna throw this out here. Hogan's creative control only extended to match results. The judge in his lawsuit ruled that because wrestling was fake Hogan's creative control clause would be worthless if it also didn't give him control over promos involving him, expanding it greatly. Hogan only signed with WCW because they gave him a HUGE deal and creative control. He was incredibly leery the company would gently caress him up so that clause is what led to him signing.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:47
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Wow that seems like a rather ridiculous conclusion to come to. I feel like I should bap that judge over the head with a rolled up newspaper. *BAP* BAD JUDGE! LOOK AT THE MESS YOU MADE! (points to Hogan). WE DO THAT OUTSIDE! In Hogan's defense though: You'd think that Russo would maybe look at Jeff Jarrett and be like 'y'know what, this is the second time in two companies this has happened. Maybe it's not them. Maybe I should hitch my wagon to another horse.' I swear TNA is the direct result of Jeff Jarrett deciding "Screw Austin, screw Hogan. I'ma get my own wrestling company, with blackjack. And hookers." And then he did. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 03:30
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ChrisBTY posted:Wow that seems like a rather ridiculous conclusion to come to. If you have creative control and use it to win a match and then the booker comes out and declares you are in fact the loser, your creative control is meaningless.
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Feb 20, 2016 03:50
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Maxwell Lord posted:Basically nobody in wrestling who gains power ever uses it responsibly. Rock.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:12
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Hogan was a huge part of WCW's mid-90s success but at some point there was more upside to paying him to sit at home than allowing him to run rampant and it's on the WCW management for not realizing that.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:15
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Chromatic posted:Rock. RVD as well had a lot of pull in ECW, mostly because they owed him a shitload of money. But then again Dreamer also had a decent amount of control and seemed to be obsessed with booking himself as if he didn't so maybe that was the norm for that company.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:36
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El Estrago Bonito posted:RVD as well had a lot of pull in ECW, mostly because they owed him a shitload of money. But then again Dreamer also had a decent amount of control and seemed to be obsessed with booking himself as if he didn't so maybe that was the norm for that company. Dreamer was also a total dickwad to Corino so he varied.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:40
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If we're talking about active wrestlers with the book.... Gedo's booking can certainly be criticized on severald different levels but he's content to book himself as a lower card guy that often is in semi comedic matches and usually jobs.
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Feb 20, 2016 04:54
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Thauros posted:If we're talking about active wrestlers with the book.... he booked himself to come out with a hot actress, win the battle royale, and walk away with the girl at Wrestle Kingdom Cheeseburger should have won damnit
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Feb 20, 2016 04:56
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ChrisBTY posted:I swear TNA is the direct result of Jeff Jarrett deciding "Screw Austin, screw Hogan. I'ma get my own wrestling company, with blackjack. And hookers." And then he did.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:03
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MassRafTer posted:Dreamer was also a total dickwad to Corino so he varied. It would not surprise me in the least if Corino brought that on himself.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:56
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ayn rand hand job posted:he booked himself to come out with a hot actress, win the battle royale, and walk away with the girl at Wrestle Kingdom that was Jado
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Feb 20, 2016 06:09
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CombineThresher posted:It would not surprise me in the least if Corino brought that on himself. Tommy sold him a broken ring while swearing it was good, that's not really one of those "well, you brought it on yourself" kind of things
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Feb 20, 2016 06:16
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It's not about the book it's about being able to craft your own persona.
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Feb 20, 2016 09:18
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Hulk Hogan is pretty much universally reviled these days, but what was the opinion of him with smarks during his heyday in the 80s/early 90s? Has he always been seen as a manipulative dick, or is that something that's become apparent with hindsight? To clarify, I know the fans were sick of him by the 92 Rumble (at least), but how about during the height of Hulkamania?
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Feb 20, 2016 15:50
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BodyMassageMachine posted:Hulk Hogan is pretty much universally reviled these days, but what was the opinion of him with smarks during his heyday in the 80s/early 90s? Has he always been seen as a manipulative dick, or is that something that's become apparent with hindsight? They hated him then too. His matches were formulaic, and he was viewed as someone who couldn't "wrestle". Smarks were pushing for people like Steamboat, Savage, Harley Race, anyone really, to be WWF Champion over him.
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Feb 20, 2016 15:55
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Yeah people's views on his in-ring ability have improved since the 80s. Most people will at least say that he was very good at being Hogan now. Back then Meltzer had a palpable hatred for the style of the WWF and what Vince was doing business-wise that extended to his criticism of Hogan's matches and in turn influenced everyone else.
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Feb 20, 2016 16:07
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Agreed, Hulk Hogan was very good at having a formulaic lovely match with opponents who were even more horrendously bad in the ring than him The guy had a great character that he was good at playing, he was a huge draw, we don't really have to pretend that made his in ring stuff good
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Feb 20, 2016 18:02
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If smarks hated Hogan, why did he win babyface of the year like 8 years in a row
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Feb 20, 2016 18:25
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Hogan was actually capable of being a very good wrestler when he was in Japan. He just realised that in America he could get away with having the same match over and over again and make more money than everyone else. He also was on TV far less and unless you were going to house shows your only chances to see him would generally be on the big PPV's or TV specials so the formula wasn't as tired as it would be if he was wrestling today. He just got out, played his greatest hits and left. He's wrestling's Gene Simon, right down to the terrible sex tape.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:48
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Smoking Crow posted:If smarks hated Hogan, why did he win babyface of the year like 8 years in a row Because he was an enormous star and WWE's midcard babyface roster was frequently kinda thin. Most of their best performers were heels. Same goes for the NWA, really, Flair and the Horsemen were NWA's best performers. The only guys who could conceivably outdo him in U.S. wrestling at the time as faces were Steamboat, and Jerry Lawler.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:33
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Tommy sold him a broken ring while swearing it was good, that's not really one of those "well, you brought it on yourself" kind of things Dreamer passing off broken things as good sounds about right, starting with himself.
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Feb 21, 2016 00:46
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I was out of wrestling during Batista's entire run. Whats the general consensus on him and what are some essential matches I should check out?
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Feb 21, 2016 17:30
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Big Dave always had great chemistry with Taker, so for his best matches you can start there. He was like a lot of guys, not a spectacular worker, had a great look and a subtle absurd streak to his character work that grew on smarks over time. But I think he could be carried easier than most, so he was capable of great matches with the right opponents. Plus his face turn against Evolution might have been the biggest most memorable pop of the mid-late '00s, with the exception of maybe Cena's surprise Rumble return.
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Feb 21, 2016 18:01
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