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Which non-Power of the Daleks story would you like to see an episode found from?
This poll is closed.
Marco Polo 36 20.69%
The Myth Makers 10 5.75%
The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve 45 25.86%
The Savages 2 1.15%
The Smugglers 2 1.15%
The Highlanders 45 25.86%
The Macra Terror 21 12.07%
Fury from the Deep 13 7.47%
Total: 174 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Locked thread
twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

4th Doctor problems.

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jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Speaking of "things getting brought up in the audios" I'm honestly surprised that 4's hat and scarf don't get mentioned way more often in the FDA line. Every so often the scarf will get used as an emergency rope or something, but I'm kinda impressed by the restraint shown to not have it mentioned every. single. time. someone describes the Doctor aloud.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
And there's John Cleese. I forgot he has a cameo. I guess that is an indication of the popularity of the show at the time.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011

Jerusalem posted:

but there was a similar perceived level of attraction/flirting when Mary Tamm was in the role (though to be fair, who wouldn't be in love with Mary Tamm? :swoon:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4bgOroUhWI&t=56s

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


"Oh, MARY!"

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Just got to the end of The Eight Truths and Eddie Robson has pulled another Human Resources style cliffhanger twist :hellyeah:

I really, really, really like Eddie Robson's stuff.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Jerusalem posted:

Just got to the end of The Eight Truths and Eddie Robson has pulled another Human Resources style cliffhanger twist :hellyeah:

I really, really, really like Eddie Robson's stuff.

I was literally hanging out with Eddie (and several other Who-ish writers) yesterday!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The_Doctor posted:

I was literally hanging out with Eddie (and several other Who-ish writers) yesterday!

Oh man, if I'd listened a couple of days earlier I could have told you to give him an awkward high five from some loser on the Internet!

In all seriousness though, I really enjoy his writing, particularly what he does on the Eighth Doctor Adventures - sure he seems to always use his pet characters, but he uses them well and the stories are always well worth it. He also seems to be able to do humor well, and nothing wrecks a story more than attempts at humor that fall flat. Writing wise he's been the saving grace of the EDAs for me.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
The Nimon is pretty hilarious. I wonder if its weird body posture is the actor inside the suit trying to walk on giant platform shoes while wearing a mask that completely covers his head.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013

twistedmentat posted:

The Nimon is pretty hilarious. I wonder if its weird body posture is the actor inside the suit trying to walk on giant platform shoes while wearing a mask that completely covers his head.

They're all played by ballerinas. No joke.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Open Source Idiom posted:

They're all played by ballerinas. No joke.

That's pretty coo. Also, what was up with Romana's outfit in Nightmare of Eden. It looked like what they'd make a woman wear when she is hiding being pregnant.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: Lucie and Karen become brand new people figuratively and literally.

Long Synopsis: While the Doctor occupies himself investigating the mystery of a missing space probe, Lucie is convinced to undertake a consult by a "Self-Help Group" with alarming consequences. It's the end of the world, the Doctor's in a coma, Lucie's in charge, and a long con goes horribly wrong.

What's Good:
  • The separation. The Doctor and Lucie share no "screen-time" in this story, having only a couple pieces of dialogue which take place only over the phone. Each are on their own separate adventures/stories, and these twin streams are both equally compelling and interesting to listen to. Had one or the other fallen flat, it would have wrecked the flow of the story. Instead they weave interestingly in and out of each other's orbits, sometimes seeming to be completely separate, other times appearing to be heading on a collission course before veering off in their own direction. As the Doctor makes new friends and there is some fun to be had with how casually he gets his way, and their flabbergasted reactions to his revelations of who and what he is, Lucie is off being lead down a disturbing path of "rebirth" that allows Sheridan Smith the fun of getting to play Lucie in a very different way to usual. Her shift from cynical observer to reluctant participant to cruel manipulator is really well handled, and makes perfect sense.

  • The Scientology Parallels. While this kind of thing is old hat by now, the Eight Truths organization as an obvious parody of Scientology is well handled, particularly because it actually goes out of its way to sell the idea that most of the people involved have completely bought into what they are selling. There is a wonderful amount of subtlety, especially in regards to the founder whose obvious surprise and concern as his prophecies start coming true tells you everything you need to know about his own intentions for this group. The way he tries to reinterpret events, makes grudging admissions that he thought the "prophecies" would be realized AFTER he died etc, all go to show him up as an obvious con-man who has been running a good thing and is now watching it spiral out of control. It is just a pity that towards the end of the story Lucie just comes right out and says this to his face, because up to that point it was a very well handled example of showing rather than telling - of course he's not going to sit around rubbing his hands together gloating about how he's full of poo poo, but his unease and attempts to regain control of the narrative made it obvious without coming right out and saying that is what he was doing... until right at the end when somebody finally does. The rest of the group bears all the by-now familiar hallmarks of Scientology - the targeting of vulnerable people, the jealous protection of their "secrets", the use of pseudo-science "personality tests", the offer of devices to remove excess thetansnegativity, the relentless legal attacks on those who bring them into disrepute etc. There are enthusiastic new converts eager to share their newfound peace, smooth-talking senior operators/public faces who may have completely bought into what they're selling etc. It's nothing groundbreaking, but it's very well handled.

  • The cliffhanger/reveal. Throughout the entire story, there are little bits and pieces of things coming up that all fit perfectly as elements designed for world-building. The crystals that the Eighth Truthers carry, the Doctor's attempts to locate the system that has hijacked the space probe, the tests the Eighth Truthers use on their new converts etc - it's all in service of creating the story and serving the narrative. But then everything comes together absolutely perfectly for the big reveal, putting everything we've seen to date into a new context. Just like he did with Human Resources in the first season of the EDAs, Eddie Robson lets all kinds of stuff happening in the background coalesce into a big reveal that changes the entire context of what was already a very good story. When the Doctor finally gets hold of one of the crystals that have been all over the story, that one piece of new information gives him everything he needs to know and it is one hell of a reveal. To be fair, it's also extremely reliant on prior knowledge of Doctor Who continuity, but I don't think that's so much of an issue for a Big Finish audio to be fair. The reveal that the crystal is a Metebelis Crystal, coinciding with the true believers of The Eight Truths discovering they have been manipulated by the Eight-Legs from Planet of the Spiders is just magnificent, a fantastic cliffhanger that immediately raises the stakes and left me super-excited to see what happens in the next story. Season 1 and 2 both ended with the return of an old threat from the Doctor's past, but this is the first one where I've genuinely thought,"Oh man, can the Doctor handle this?" - of course he can and will, he always does, but that suspension of disbelief is so important to a good quality story, and for me this one delivers in spades.

What's Not:

  • It's all a bit convenient. This is a packed story, and as a result there are what feels like a lot of shortcuts to get the characters to where they need to be. Sometimes this is used effectively, like when Lucie's use of the crystal is obviously responsible for blanks in her memory. But more often than not they just skip large sections to get where they want to be. So there's no explanation for why the Doctor and Lucie are staying at a hotel in London in 2015, and the Doctor gets involved in the missing space probe story because he hears a story on the news and thinks it is interesting so just walks on over and lets himself in. There's a simple line of,"Call UNIT to check my credentials" that lets him get his hands on some hugely expensive equipment, and the control center for the probe appears to be run by two blokes who just kinda shrug and let this complete stranger do what he wants with their "baby". There's a 23 day gap in the story where the Doctor is put into a coma, allowing the story to jump ahead and wildly change the status quo, and while this works it does feel like a bit of a cheat or that it would have better suited a natural gap between this story and the next.... but then we would have lost that amazing cliffhanger! Basically the story feels like it was stripped down to fit the runtime, so a lot of stuff either happens "off-screen" or just gets glossed over. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is noticeable.

  • The "True" Believers. Part of the strength of the story is that the Eight Truths movement is primarily made up of people who genuinely believe in the organization and are unaware of the darker things going on beneath the surface. So it is somewhat disappointing that when "The Chosen One" shows up and things get turned up to 11, that their concerns/objections come across as so... petty. They're absolutely in the right that something is up, but the way in which their complaints are worded and portrayed just makes them look bitter that they're no longer "Special" - their complaints boil down to,"We believed on faith, these new converts only believe because the evidence is right in their face". So we end up in a situation where the actual genuine believers in a movement that on the face of it is interested in helping mankind are complaining about hundreds of millions flocking to their cause, while the evil and cynical abuser of the movement is making the very good point of,"Who cares why they are coming to us to be saved, the point is to save them!" - that "The Chosen One" is actually full of poo poo and not interested in saving them at all is beside the point, because those opposed to her are apparently only doing it out of their own self-interest.

Final Thoughts:

The Eight Truths is a fantastic penultimate episode to the season that sets everything up for what looks to be one hell of a finale. Giving Paul McGann and Sheridan Smith each their own strong individual stories to tell, it still manages to produce two halves that make a cohesive whole. The way everything comes together in the end for the big reveal is just excellent handled. There are some great elements that very deliberately bring to mind the Pertwee era, and by the end of the story everything not only makes sense but has set the stage beautifully to just let poo poo go crazy in the follow-up story (which hopefully it does). Eddie Robson produces yet another winner, and if he is still guilty of being a bit too attached to his pet characters (to the point of having another actor play the same character) he at least makes them palatable (well, the Headhunter is continuing to grate on me) and it can be forgiven if everything going on around it is so good. While it relies on a working knowledge of the season's opener - Orbis - it is a strong enough story to stand on its own, with about the only caveat being that if you're not particularly familiar with the late Pertwee era then the big reveal probably won't have the same impact as it did for me. After a mostly unimpressive season, this looks set to be a hell of a final 1-2 punch that may (may) redeem the entire thing or make me look back on it more favorably.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Open Source Idiom posted:

They're all played by ballerinas. No joke.

You're thinking of the Tractators from Frontios

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

Frontios is seriously underrated, even if it is highly distracting watching Jeff Rawle from Drop the Dead Donkey trying to play a character with a backbone.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Trin Tragula posted:

Frontios is seriously underrated, even if it is highly distracting watching Jeff Rawle from Drop the Dead Donkey trying to play a character with a backbone.

Bidmead was generally of the opinion that you didn't need a silly monster to make a story great, Frontios is excellent evidence because everything not involving the Tractators is brilliant and the rest of it is not.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



twistedmentat posted:

The Nimon is pretty hilarious. I wonder if its weird body posture is the actor inside the suit trying to walk on giant platform shoes while wearing a mask that completely covers his head.

Trivia: the mask was supposed to be exactly that. A mask, hiding the Nimon's true visage beneath it. Then the production just said "gently caress it, that's good enough".

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Bidmead was generally of the opinion that you didn't need a silly monster to make a story great, Frontios is excellent evidence because everything not involving the Tractators is brilliant and the rest of it is not.

Remember how disappointed the kid* who designed the Abzorbaloff was? That feeling must be like alcohol to Doctor Who writers. First it disgusts them, then they learn to live with it, and eventually, life just doesn't seem as good without it.

* Apparently he changed his story between early interviews and the DVD commentary, so the process has begun. Blue Peter winner William Grantham for showrunner!

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Davros1 posted:

the production just said "gently caress it, that's good enough".

This summarizes everything about Horns of Nimon.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

After The War posted:

This summarizes everything about Horns of Nimon.

Except the performance of Graham Crowden, who gives it both barrels

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqn0UHZOSjQ

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Except the performance of Graham Crowden, who gives it both barrels

I was thinking of anyone whose job it was to reign him in.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
The second War Doctor set is officially released and can be downloaded now. Sadly, I am stuck at work for a few more hours!

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

jivjov posted:

The second War Doctor set is officially released and can be downloaded now. Sadly, I am stuck at work for a few more hours!

Suck it up, you'll get to it.

Savor the wait. SAVOR IT

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

jivjov posted:

The second War Doctor set is officially released and can be downloaded now. Sadly, I am stuck at work for a few more hours!

Awwww ysssss

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Davros1 posted:

Trivia: the mask was supposed to be exactly that. A mask, hiding the Nimon's true visage beneath it. Then the production just said "gently caress it, that's good enough".

I'm sure a hell of a lot of stuff from Old Who comes from that.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

twistedmentat posted:

I'm sure a hell of a lot of stuff from Old Who comes from that.

The opposite is true, if anything

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The opposite is true, if anything

Interesting. It always felt like a fly by the seat of our pants, we have 1000 pounds to spend on this episode kind of show.

Also, I'm not ashamed to admit my favorite version of the opening theme is the one that first appears in the Leisure Hive. Actually, did they get a big influx of cash into episodes at this point, because this episode looks decidedly less cheap than the previous ones.

twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Feb 23, 2016

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Even when it was at the absolute height of its popularity, Doctor Who never got money spent on it.

The production team often tried, but there was only so far to go.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

twistedmentat posted:

Interesting. It always felt like a fly by the seat of our pants, we have 1000 pounds to spend on this episode kind of show.

The budget was always incredibly sparse, and the production crew were always pressed for time with almost no let-up.... but everybody involved seemed to pour their heart and soul into what they did and do the absolute best to get as much out of their limited time and resources as possible.

Even in the dying days when JNT was burned out and wanted to move on to somewhere else, he didn't go because he was justifiably concerned that if he left the BBC wouldn't replace him and the show wouldn't be made anymore. Eventually the show went on permanent hiatus anyway, but JNT did what he could to keep it going even when it was obvious the BBC wanted the show to go away.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

Jerusalem posted:

The budget was always incredibly sparse, and the production crew were always pressed for time with almost no let-up.... but everybody involved seemed to pour their heart and soul into what they did and do the absolute best to get as much out of their limited time and resources as possible.

The behind-the-scenes features on the DVD's I'm watching talk about this extensively, how the production crew had to get incredibly creative with the budget and how to stretch each and every pound. It's amazing how a set like the ones for Planet of Evil came together with some creative camera placement, columns and pillars from other BBC shows, and making a set three stories instead of two.

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch
yeah for all the flak that JNT gets he's basically the reason why it wasn't cancelled three years earlier; without him we wouldn't have had McCoy as the Seventh Doctor and some of the great stuff that he was in. I mean with the stories that you hear about how difficult the end of Trial of a Timelord was who'd have blamed him if he'd gone "gently caress this" and moved onto something else. I mean the last part of the thing is probably the only Pip and Jane thing that you can't totally blame them for being terrible!

Lots of the McCoy stories actually look less cheap than most Doctor Who despite the fact that around that time they were probably getting a budget smaller than they'd have had for a long time - this is perhaps because they were able to use a lot more location filming which helped to hide the cheapness? I mean McCoy's last series is pretty much all set on Earth and I'm imagine that would help to keep costs down, although I don't work in television so I could be totally wrong!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The story that really blew my mind was regarding the hiatus between Colin Baker's first and last season. The reason given was,"A hiatus to allow for retooling the show" and then for a year JNT and Eric Saward would come to work and sit in their offices and do absolutely nothing. They got no direction, no suggestions, no communication AT ALL from the BBC. About the only thing that happened was Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant fighting an effort by the BBC not to pay them despite having them under contract.

Then after a year, the word came down,"Okay start making the show again" so they.... just did. They put together Trial of a Time Lord but it was based on no input from BBC higher-ups, they just tried to make a show they thought maybe the BBC might prefer maybe?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
Why did JNT pick Six's outfit the way he did anyways

The rest of the Twin Dilemma's sins we won't lay at his feet, but that was his choice to make Six look utterly ridiculous right? Because I know that was one of the stated reasons that one rear end in a top hat from the BBC gave for ultimately hating and killing the show

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮

Jerusalem posted:

The story that really blew my mind was regarding the hiatus between Colin Baker's first and last season. The reason given was,"A hiatus to allow for retooling the show" and then for a year JNT and Eric Saward would come to work and sit in their offices and do absolutely nothing. They got no direction, no suggestions, no communication AT ALL from the BBC. About the only thing that happened was Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant fighting an effort by the BBC not to pay them despite having them under contract.

Then after a year, the word came down,"Okay start making the show again" so they.... just did. They put together Trial of a Time Lord but it was based on no input from BBC higher-ups, they just tried to make a show they thought maybe the BBC might prefer maybe?

I'd like to think they wanted to make it more like 'Allo 'Allo!, and have the Doctor deal with being stuck in Dalek-occupied Gallifrey while making sexual innuendos. THIS MAY HAVE HAPPENED.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

OTOH, if JN-T hadn't got carried away with playing to the adoring fanbase and taking conventions to America, he could have moved on with no problem at all when Peter Davison left, while the show was still popular enough for another BBC producer to have wanted to take the job...

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

CaptainYesterday posted:

I'd like to think they wanted to make it more like 'Allo 'Allo!, and have the Doctor deal with being stuck in Dalek-occupied Gallifrey while making sexual innuendos. THIS MAY HAVE HAPPENED.

High Chancellor Flavia: DOCTOR! Where are you going with that Type 40 Time Capsule?
1st Doctor: YOU STUPID WOMAN! Can you not see..... we are eloping!?!

Doctor Who theme tune plays with accordion

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


IceAgeComing posted:

yeah for all the flak that JNT gets he's basically the reason why it wasn't cancelled three years earlier; without him we wouldn't have had McCoy as the Seventh Doctor and some of the great stuff that he was in. I mean with the stories that you hear about how difficult the end of Trial of a Timelord was who'd have blamed him if he'd gone "gently caress this" and moved onto something else. I mean the last part of the thing is probably the only Pip and Jane thing that you can't totally blame them for being terrible!

You can always blame Pip and Jane for being terrible.


Especially if you are Chris Chibnall. :v:

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Jerusalem posted:

High Chancellor Flavia: DOCTOR! Where are you going with that Type 40 Time Capsule?
1st Doctor: YOU STUPID WOMAN! Can you not see..... we are eloping!?!

Doctor Who theme tune plays with accordion

HA-IL DAV-ROS!

HA-IL DAV-ROS!

'ROS!

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
drat, I remember so few 7th Doctor episodes. I remember the one with the space Circus, the Curse of Fenric, the one with the glowing bow and obviously the very first one.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

First episode of the new War Doctor audio is already a tremendous step up from the first audio (which I enjoyed) and looks to be starting to play around with the concept of,"Incredibly weird poo poo" which is a relief.

Or maybe I'm just blinded by the fact that the villain is played by David Warner :swoon:

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