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rabidsquid posted:Also the Eldrazi decks will survive without Eye. The card regularly generates 4+ mana, trivially generates 1-3, and tutors. It is busted. They really won't, B/W Eldrazi would be what the deck would likely return to, and if you have to play most of the creatures on curve in that deck (which you will a lot of the time unless you really aggressively mulligan to temple), they become really lackluster really quickly.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:23
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The deck would be absolutely fine with either card banned. With just Eye, for instance, you need to mulligan to a single 4-of and probably are a lot worse than your average affinity start even when you hit it.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:25
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alansmithee posted:If you ban eye the deck dies. And who cares if you can swing for 4 on t2 and 5 on t3 (if you've drawn 2 of 4 specific lands)? Affinity can swing for 4 on t2 in the air pretty commonly. Infect's able to drop a bunch of damage then as well. The deck is fine without Eye. You can still turn 2 a 4/4 Thoughtseize and turn 3 a 5/5 with trample and haste that you can't actually kill, it's just much less likely. The difference is you lose the turn 2/3 kills and usually give people time to actually have reasonable answers to what's happening. alansmithee posted:And I don't think the issue with modern is bad answers so much as it's typically better to just go about your gameplan than react to someone else. Like it's always been said there's no bad threats, only bad answers. I mean the B/G/X decks pretty much live off of having answers for all threats. "The problem isn't bad answers, it's that you're better off not trying to answer things." So the problem is bad answers. Also BGx decks haven't been good for a while, and they're really bad right now.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The deck would be absolutely fine with either card banned. With just Eye, for instance, you need to mulligan to a single 4-of and probably are a lot worse than your average affinity start even when you hit it. It's true, the deck loses almost every game it doesn't draw Eye of Ugin right now. Right?
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Feb 23, 2016 02:32
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It's not a good deck when it doesn't have either land, and that would happen a lot if they only had 4.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:34
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I haven't checked my stats in a long time but thanks for reminding me it's fun to check. Overall: 75% Standard: 74% (Game Day: 78%) Modern: 61% Limited - Sealed: 79% (including a staggering 89% at pre-release events) Limited - Draft: 77% I even got to check my opponents' records to check something I've been meaning to get around to. A guy I know at my LGS up here got salty with me back in November citing that I'm his brick wall, that he just can't beat me. I assured him that it's probably just perception, and that he's probably just remember bad beats or something. Turns out he was actually just right: in the 6 months I've been here since I moved I just haven't dropped a game to him at any of the events I've paired up against him. Oops. E: Maybe I should play more on MTGO. Doesn't it only take like a 60% win rate in limited events to 'go infinite' by selling out prizes to bots or something? Or is it worse than that now?
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Feb 23, 2016 02:38
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smertrioslol posted:Why would anyone prefer rare redrafting? Weak competition.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:39
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suicidesteve posted:The deck is fine without Eye. You can still turn 2 a 4/4 Thoughtseize and turn 3 a 5/5 with trample and haste that you can't actually kill, it's just much less likely. The difference is you lose the turn 2/3 kills and usually give people time to actually have reasonable answers to what's happening. Also, before like Alara block (which is around when the balance of power started shifting from answers to threats), if a midrange deck was good it was good because its answers were relevant against a big enough chunk of the field that you weren't at risk of dying because you drew the wrong half of the deck. You had Deed, Duress, Cabal Therapy... Midrange was a joke for a long time ( http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/initial-technology-the-meaning-of-midrange-and-why-its-terrible/ ) and what changed is that there started to be more (and more diverse) must-answer threats than there were cards that answer them.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:40
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Rare redrafting is also theoretically cheaper but you need to have a good store or they're just going to be dicks about charging the same price even without prize support.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:40
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Attorney at Funk posted:Also, before like Alara block (which is around when the balance of power started shifting from answers to threats), if a midrange deck was good it was good because its answers were relevant against a big enough chunk of the field that you weren't at risk of dying because you drew the wrong half of the deck. You had Deed, Duress, Cabal Therapy... The Rock and his Millions is still one of the best decks of all time. 
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Feb 23, 2016 02:41
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smertrioslol posted:Why would anyone prefer rare redrafting? jassi007 posted:Weak competition. If it's people you don't know, don't re-draft because it's just gonna be players who know what they're doing sharking the good cards. E: rabidsquid posted:Rare redrafting is also theoretically cheaper but you need to have a good store or they're just going to be dicks about charging the same price even without prize support.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:42
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Another issue with answers with the set design of the past few years is almost everything is incredibly threat dense. When you have a format like Modern with such a wide variation on different decks and every single one is incredibly threat dense your answers all need to be on the level of creeping corrosion and that's not realistic.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:43
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suicidesteve posted:The Rock and his Millions is still one of the best decks of all time. Yeah but that deck ran six Duresses and the actual cards the deck's named after were a generically powerful board-control engine as much as they were attacking creatures.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:43
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suicidesteve posted:The deck is fine without Eye. You can still turn 2 a 4/4 Thoughtseize and turn 3 a 5/5 with trample and haste that you can't actually kill, it's just much less likely. The difference is you lose the turn 2/3 kills and usually give people time to actually have reasonable answers to what's happening. I'm still only partially sure the deck would survive with just eye, since you're still needing to mulligan for it to actually compete. Like do people really think playing t2 mimic/t3 reshaper/t4 thought knot seer is gonna do much in modern? Were people really looking at t3 skyspawner as a reasonable modern play? Did people suddenly forget how fast modern is in the absence of eldrazi? quote:"The problem isn't bad answers, it's that you're better off not trying to answer things." So the problem is bad answers. Also BGx decks haven't been good for a while, and they're really bad right now. It's hard to have a card suite that's flexible enough to deal with all the ways you can be attacked in modern. And half the cards that let people do stuff that would actually control or disrupt things, everyone says they're "no fun" or whatever (such as ensnaring bridge). Also I don't think they did anything at the open but I think jund did ok at the pro tour so I don't think they're particularly bad. It's a very adaptable shell.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:44
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alansmithee posted:It's hard to have a card suite that's flexible enough to deal with all the ways you can be attacked in modern. And half the cards that let people do stuff that would actually control or disrupt things, everyone says they're "no fun" or whatever (such as ensnaring bridge). This is all true, but it reiterates rather than refutes the idea that answers are way weaker than threats in Modern. There aren't very many that are generically powerful, nobody likes playing those cards, and WotC is loath to print more.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:46
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I'm curious how Wizards is going to release the Conspiracy 2 cards on MTGO - for the original Conspiracy they put the constructed-relevant cards in Vintage Masters, but I can't imagine them making a Vintage Masters 2 with Eternal Masters on the horizon.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:47
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GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:I'm curious how Wizards is going to release the Conspiracy 2 cards on MTGO - for the original Conspiracy they put the constructed-relevant cards in Vintage Masters, but I can't imagine them making a Vintage Masters 2 with Eternal Masters on the horizon. What if they're just all in Eternal Masters too? Paper card prices typically need more help than online ones do, and MTGO's EMA print run is effectively to-demand for as long as they run the events, isn't it?
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Feb 23, 2016 02:49
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alansmithee posted:How is it fine without eye? You have to have 2 of your 4 temples for the t2 thought knot. Without that you're stuck playing a bad standard deck. So maybe people will make a deck that isn't all in on having 8 sol lands for their creatures. A turn 3 or 4 Thought-Knot is still absurdly good. If you think these creatures will just leave the format when Eye gets banned you're high. alansmithee posted:It's hard to have a card suite that's flexible enough to deal with all the ways you can be attacked in modern. And half the cards that let people do stuff that would actually control or disrupt things, everyone says they're "no fun" or whatever (such as ensnaring bridge). Also I don't think they did anything at the open but I think jund did ok at the pro tour so I don't think they're particularly bad. It's a very adaptable shell. Legacy has a lot more diverse threats and it manages just fine. People can cry about it all they want but counter magic is kind of necessary to keep a format this powerful from being terrible. Reid Duke playing Jund is not a good point of comparison. Jon Finkel does well with Storm, that doesn't make it a good or playable deck. Edit: and again you're just proving our point that the problem with modern is bad answers.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:52
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suicidesteve posted:So maybe people will make a deck that isn't all in on having 8 sol lands for their creatures. A turn 3 or 4 Thought-Knot is still absurdly good. If you think these creatures will just leave the format when Eye gets banned you're high. Turn 4 Thought-Knot may, in fact, not be absurdly good
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Feb 23, 2016 02:55
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TheKingofSprings posted:Turn 4 Thought-Knot may, in fact, not be absurdly good It is in midrange decks. I've even been playing them in Blue Tron and they're really good.
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Feb 23, 2016 03:06
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alansmithee posted:If you ban eye the deck dies. Without Sword of the Meek, Thopter Combo can't survive. Sometimes it's okay to lose an archtype because that archtype's existence is a bad thing for the format.
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Feb 23, 2016 03:09
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Without Sword of the Meek, Thopter Combo can't survive. Sometimes it's okay to lose an archtype because that archtype's existence is a bad thing for the format. Or like Miracles it moves on to Legacy and joins the club there. Hasn't Edlrazi proven to be a Legacy playable deck? (at least as good as Affinity)
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Feb 23, 2016 03:11
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Without Sword of the Meek, Thopter Combo can't survive. Sometimes it's okay to lose an archtype because that archtype's existence is a bad thing for the format. You shut your fluffy mouth, Thopter Combo is what Modern needs most right now. E: After a Dig Through Time unban, that is. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 23, 2016 |
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Feb 23, 2016 03:12
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Turn 4 Thought-Knot might not be absurdly good but it should at least be very playable, and if it isn't then that's probably the equivalent of a choking canary in a coal mine as far as how hosed up power levels are becoming.
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Feb 23, 2016 03:56
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Do regular rear end ultra pros work well as the inner sleeve if I'm double sleeving with dragonshields? Just wondering because ultra pros are all have on me besides the dragon shields.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:03
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Fiend Computer posted:Do regular rear end ultra pros work well as the inner sleeve if I'm double sleeving with dragonshields? Just wondering because ultra pros are all have on me besides the dragon shields.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:14
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TheKingofSprings posted:You shut your fluffy mouth, Thopter Combo is what Modern needs most right now. I'm in favor of a Dig unban. Which reminds me, I wonder if WotC would've been so quick to ban Treasure Cruise if the card was a rare AND run in 90% of at the time good modern decks. Because they sure as gently caress didn't care about kind of killing Scapeshift with the Dig ban.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:14
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Count Bleck posted:I'm in favor of a Dig unban. Bring to Light made Scapeshift fun again, until Eldrazi ruined everything.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:15
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Still wondering about running that Modern with everything unbanned minus Hypergenesis tournament.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:15
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suicidesteve posted:So maybe people will make a deck that isn't all in on having 8 sol lands for their creatures. A turn 3 or 4 Thought-Knot is still absurdly good. If you think these creatures will just leave the format when Eye gets banned you're high. What deck is playing eldrazi dudes in modern without the boost lands? Tron will keep worldbreaker/newlamog and then what? I think some of the coco variants run matter reshaper. I'm just not seeing what can afford to both run colorless mana, and tap out on t4 to cast thought-knot. Especially because it's not likely there will be any big colorless support coming up, so running diamond mana as a legit third color looks worse. quote:Legacy has a lot more diverse threats and it manages just fine. People can cry about it all they want but counter magic is kind of necessary to keep a format this powerful from being terrible. From my understanding Legacy has 4 threats-delver, angels, merit lages, and being hit with about 15 tendrils. That's not amazingly diverse. And modern actually has great answers. Bolt, Damnation (which I think is severely underplayed), Dismember, and Path are things that are pretty much always relevant. Thoughtseize and Inquisition are decent discard choices. What it lacks isn't answers-it lacks a decent counterspells (which is something I've consistently complained about). The answers are "bad" against a broken eldrazi deck-and don't get me wrong something does indeed need to be done about it. I'd just like to see something that could actually preserve at least parts of the shell as playable. I seriously don't see how twin became presumably unplayable having to go from 2RR enchantment to 2RRR creature for it's combo win, yet eldrazi is supposed to be a valid archetype losing all it's acceleration. Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Without Sword of the Meek, Thopter Combo can't survive. Sometimes it's okay to lose an archtype because that archtype's existence is a bad thing for the format. anglachel posted:Or like Miracles it moves on to Legacy and joins the club there. Hasn't Edlrazi proven to be a Legacy playable deck? (at least as good as Affinity) alansmithee fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Feb 23, 2016 |
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Feb 23, 2016 04:16
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alansmithee posted:From my understanding Legacy has 4 threats-delver, angels, merit lages, and being hit with about 15 tendrils. That's not amazingly diverse. 
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Feb 23, 2016 04:19
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alansmithee posted:Is affinity even a thing in legacy? And I'm not sure I see eldrazi doing anything in legacy with one of the most popular decks running 4 main board wipes. Plus actual counterspells. Also Storm. As far as I know, eldrazi plays as just another stompy deck that gets significantly worse without turn 1 chalice
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Feb 23, 2016 04:22
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alansmithee posted:From my understanding Legacy has 4 threats-delver, angels, merit lages, and being hit with about 15 tendrils. That's not amazingly diverse. Thalia and her mom, bringing demon lords and/or Cthulhu to Show and Tell, Legolas & friends, those are also fair bits of the metagame.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:36
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From what I understand Eldrazi's Miracles matchup is one of the more compelling reasons for its potential legacy viability.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:37
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It's funny to think that Eldrazi would actually be more fair in Modern if the format had Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors instead of Temple. Now granted, every other deck that could make use of sol lands would be a lot better off, but for Eldrazi there would actually be a relevant drawback instead of, well, no drawback (except for Eye being legendary and not actually being able to make <> for TKS and Smasher, but c'mon, you're grasping at straws at that point). Which just goes to show how busted Temple and Eye are.
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Feb 23, 2016 04:55
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suicidesteve posted:Oh right, they're using paper printings for their list of legal cards for some reason (this is a really bad idea btw.) Well, RUG Tron looks ok there. You'll crush Delver, UB, Elves, Soul Sisters, and mono-black and lose hard to High Tide and Kiln Fiend. Acid Trip and Burn are draw dependent. It's such an awful idea and the meta is awful and it'll never work: things people who don't have a weekly Pauper event at their shop say about using the paper commons list. We get along just fine with paper-only commons despite the doom and gloom warnings. The payouts play a big part. For $5 we're going home with at least a pack and showing up multiple weeks in a row has it's own bonus payout. People play the decks they want to play rather than I must play the best deck to top 8 so I can win that Goyf/dual land mentality that the big tournaments attract. Card Kingdom is running paper + mtgo commons and adds a few of the "problem" paper cards to their banlist. Cloudpost Cranial Plating Empty The Warrens Frantic Search Goblin Grenade Grapeshot Hymn To Tourach Invigorate Sinkhole Temporal Fissure Treasure Cruise High Tide was missed for the first tournament and banned for the second. There aren't a whole lot of other noteable paper commons. I've considered running Desert or even Remove Enchantments. I run Red Elemental Blast rather than Pyroblast because that's what I found in the bulk box and I'm not running playing Fiend/Cyclops. Most of the paper commons are pretty boring
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Feb 23, 2016 05:16
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alansmithee posted:Is affinity even a thing in legacy? And I'm not sure I see eldrazi doing anything in legacy with one of the most popular decks running 4 main board wipes. Plus actual counterspells. Also Storm. It's a tier 2 deck along with Burn from what I understand. But I'm not a legacy guy so.....
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Feb 23, 2016 05:25
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alansmithee posted:From my understanding Legacy has 4 threats-delver, angels, merit lages, and being hit with about 15 tendrils. That's not amazingly diverse. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#online 10.56% Affinity 7.75% C Eldrazi 4.04% UR Eldrazi 3.48% RG Eldrazi 2.58% UW Eldrazi 17.85% Aggregate That's 2 decks (yes, Eldrazi is an aggregate) for 28% of the meta. 1 in 4 people you are playing are on those two decks. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online 10.47% Shardless BUG 9.88% Miracles Ok, so 1 in 5 is playing one of those two. Ignoring the fact that that's still a huge disparity, you'll also find people saying top should be banned! Also Shardless is only that high because of online metagame, it's way less popular than that in person.
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Feb 23, 2016 05:29
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mcmagic posted:No it won't be. Unless they ban a hell of a lot more than Eye/Temple. Banning the 8 ancient tombs will absolutely knock the deck down a peg from "completely and utterly format warping" to at most "just good". There's a big difference between turns ahead of schedule 4/4's and 5/5's that are also 2-for-1s. 4/4's on turn 4 and 5/5's on turn 5 (even when they generate value; and not mentioning the fact that the rest of the Eldrazi gang come nowhere near these cards' power level when they're also being cast on curve) are not busted format warping problems.
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Feb 23, 2016 05:45
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MisterOblivious posted:It's such an awful idea and the meta is awful and it'll never work: things people who don't have a weekly Pauper event at their shop say about using the paper commons list. We get along just fine with paper-only commons despite the doom and gloom warnings. The payouts play a big part. For $5 we're going home with at least a pack and showing up multiple weeks in a row has it's own bonus payout. People play the decks they want to play rather than I must play the best deck to top 8 so I can win that Goyf/dual land mentality that the big tournaments attract. I mean you listed the 3 reasons why using a paper legality list is really stupid so glad we agree?
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Feb 23, 2016 06:12
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