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VagueRant posted:Yes, but for the opening, two random names don't mean anything to a fresh viewer. The story there BEGINS with Miller getting the assignment, so you could skip that scene completely and the narrative experience would remain the same. No, you and the General Battuta make valid points. I'm just a bitter old man and was feeling cranky earlier. The story telling *isn't* the tightest, and there really is more fan-service going on for people who read the books. There's a whole wealth of information and backstory that we come into the show with, having read the books. So the things like the name tags and ship names have immediate significance for us. I'll also cop to geeking out over the relatively realistic representation of zero-g/micro-g environments, the little effects a spinning habitat has on how fluid moves, etc... That's a large part of the show for me. If I had to really sit down and explain the appeal, I have to be honest and say it's all the attention to the universe the story is set in more than the story itself. And given how loving well-crafted his book is, I'm going to defer to Battuta on his criticisms on the overall narrative flaws of the show. That said, I still love it 
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Feb 23, 2016 20:54
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Tortolia posted:and the early part of Season 3 was amazing. Man I haven't watched BSG since it aired, this was the New Caprica stuff with the 'hot drop' and jump from like 100 meters above ground level right? Because yeah, that was some intense television.
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Feb 23, 2016 20:59
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WarLocke posted:Man I haven't watched BSG since it aired, this was the New Caprica stuff with the 'hot drop' and jump from like 100 meters above ground level right? Because yeah, that was some intense television. It sure was.
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Feb 23, 2016 21:00
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flosofl posted:No, you and the General Battuta make valid points. I'm just a bitter old man and was feeling cranky earlier. Hey, don't feel like you can't speak up! I'm really happy to see a show that's tackling nitty gritty fusion-era solar system space flight. I felt the same way about SGU, a show that got stories and tension out of real astrophysics and cosmology (even if it was plagued by poor character and editing choices). I'm always glad to have more decent SF, and while I'm critical I'm really glad to watch. Nemesis Games is full of amazing material and I hope we get to that content soon!
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Feb 23, 2016 21:04
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Even at its worst this show is clearly in the top flight of televised SF.
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Feb 23, 2016 21:05
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General Battuta posted:Even at its worst this show is clearly in the top flight of televised SF. The only hesitation I have about this show is that people might latch on to those last few scenes and lose interest because "oh, another space zombie/parasite show"
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Feb 23, 2016 21:09
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I'm really glad they toned down the zombie aspect from the book. Maybe it was a good idea in 2011 when the zombie fad was in full swing, but not so much anymore.
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Feb 23, 2016 21:19
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Fister Roboto posted:Holy poo poo people, I like the show a lot too, but freaking out over someone voicing their criticisms of it is really loving stupid. I love threads that aren't echo chambers. Hell, I thought the show was pretty crappy my first watch-through of the first four eps. It's sci-fi on television, hooray, that doesn't give it +10 free sloppy blowjob points to excuse things that aren't good about it.
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Feb 23, 2016 21:23
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flosofl posted:I'll also cop to geeking out over the relatively realistic representation of zero-g/micro-g environments, the little effects a spinning habitat has on how fluid moves, etc... That's a large part of the show for me. Yeah. For me the intro with Julie was enough of a hook just because of this alone. "Oh, they're actually trying to do real zero-G in a sci fi show on TV? I'm watching every episode of this poo poo!" I'm sure at some point if we get an influx of hard SF (lol) that hook won't be enough anymore and this definitely says more about me than the show's writing, but all the same the intro caught my interest despite not knowing who the girl was or what was happening just because it immediately displays that it's not regular-flavor sci fi. 
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Feb 23, 2016 21:25
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It seems to me that most people's issues are actually just them not wanting to focus on the show while it's on or they're just being really inventive with what they think they're seeing. Maybe next season should start out with a Star Wars style scroll so that everyone has context. Probably a good idea to add user manuals and expository dialogue to drat near every scene too. I mean the only out there fantasy type tech shown on screen or discussed by the authors is a reactor that's really really good. So obviously psychic interrogation pills and glowing nanotechnology totally make sense.
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Feb 23, 2016 21:50
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WarLocke posted:Man I haven't watched BSG since it aired, this was the New Caprica stuff with the 'hot drop' and jump from like 100 meters above ground level right? Because yeah, that was some intense television.  Still one of the coolest scifi scenes I've ever seen
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Feb 23, 2016 21:58
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VagueRant posted:Yes, but for the opening, two random names don't mean anything to a fresh viewer. The story there BEGINS with Miller getting the assignment, so you could skip that scene completely and the narrative experience would remain the same. If it were lost the narrative experience wouldn't have been the same at all. It links the two seemingly disparate story arcs of Miller and Holden into a greater whole right from the start, it's the hook that makes this a space opera and not just a soap opera about a guy losing his zero-g gently caress buddy. Did you have the same complaint about the first scene in Game of Thrones too? I mean, who are those guys even?
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Feb 23, 2016 22:42
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:BSG spoiler One of? In my mind that episode is peak TV/Movie SciFi. I've never seen anything else come close to that episode. If anyone in this thread hasn't seen BSG you need to go watch it ASAP (the ending is fine).
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Feb 23, 2016 22:44
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Na'at posted:It seems to me that most people's issues are actually just them not wanting to focus on the show while it's on or they're just being really inventive with what they think they're seeing. No, many issues have to do with watching closely, like problems with the show's pacing, script, cinematography, editing, and direction.
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Feb 23, 2016 22:46
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insider posted:One of? In my mind that episode is peak TV/Movie SciFi. I've never seen anything else come close to that episode. If anyone in this thread hasn't seen BSG you need to go watch it ASAP (the ending is fine). Me and my friend watched that on the first airing and simultaneously said the same three words: HOLY loving poo poo
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Feb 23, 2016 22:50
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:
Well, time to find the DVD's and rewatch BSG. e - edited out the spoiler bit.
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Feb 23, 2016 22:54
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General Battuta posted:No, many issues have to do with watching closely, like problems with the show's pacing, script, cinematography, editing, and direction. What did you find wrong with the cinematography? Seriously with your laundry list I'm waiting for a complaint about the Foley work.
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Feb 23, 2016 23:19
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See my post upthread. It's not quite doing the same level of work that Breaking Bad, BSG or The Wire's cinematography did to unify the story with the visual storytelling.
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Feb 24, 2016 00:07
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"Not as good as The Wire" is hardly damning. There was plenty of poo poo in BSG too, so lets not get too rose tinted about it. The plot was a rambling mess later on, and it became clear even the writers didn't have a clue where any of the threads they'd created were actually going. I personally feel BSG actually peaked at 33 (yes, the very first episode). Although season one was very strong overall, the rest is hardly a masterpiece. It's mostly merely just "okay" interspersed with the occasional awesome set piece.
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Feb 24, 2016 00:18
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tooterfish posted:I personally feel BSG actually peaked at 33 (yes, the very first episode). Yeah, I'd agree with that, but it's such a good episode that "not as good as '33'" leaves a lot of room for great episodes, though. Hell, even in the back half of season four there was at least one really good, gripping episode, and the plot was almost entirely off the rails by then.
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Feb 24, 2016 00:29
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Considering all of the amazing shots in the show and how each location has had a very distinct visual feel I'm going to go ahead and fully disagree with you on this point especially. "Not as good as The Wire" is like saying "Not as good as Jordan"
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Feb 24, 2016 00:35
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I don't think The Expanse has gotten great yet. I think it's solid, with moments of greatness. That shot of Avasarala walking through the snow was great, for instance, because it did a lot of work — isolating and empowering her, contrasting Earth's winter with space. The shot of the captive Belter being interrogated presented him as an alien, dangerous thing in a tank, reflecting Avasarala's prejudices and yet showing us (visually) how dangerous Earth can be, physically and politically, to the Belt. But it's all mostly been Fine so far. The show soft-sells its big moments in a disappointing way. Eros Station is downright restrained, with most of the horror and intensity shaved off in favor of a pretty standard tunnels-and-gunfight sequence. The big battle between the Donnager and the stealth ships is cramped and slack, without much visual panache (except the way the show handles torpedoes and acceleration, which are great). The pacing's methodical, with clear beats and conflicts, making it a bit ponderous and predictable. And I think there's something just a little clunky about the script — something not quite lively enough for me. It's all good, but it's not a great show yet, and like the books it seems to be happy to settle for middle-of-the-road solid entertainment in an archetypical near-future-SF setting. I wish it wouldn't. I hope The Expanse finds its version of Rian Johnson or Cary Fukunaga or Darin Morgan or whoever-you-will, someone who really grabs the material and knows how to make it sing on screen. By the time the series catches up to Nemesis Games (hopefully skipping over or contracting books 3+4) I hope it'll have learned as much as the books seemed to. The Rocinante design is really good.
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Feb 24, 2016 01:41
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Toast Museum posted:Yeah, I'd agree with that, but it's such a good episode that "not as good as '33'" leaves a lot of room for great episodes, though. Hell, even in the back half of season four there was at least one really good, gripping episode, and the plot was almost entirely off the rails by then. 33 is one of the best television episodes I've every seen. I don't think it's much of a criticism to say that BSG hit a grand slam the first time it got to the plate and didn't do it repeatedly afterwards. tooterfish posted:I feel like you're setting up impossible constraints here. The very first scene in the very first episode of a show doesn't have any context and doesn't mean anything to a fresh viewer? Well no poo poo. I don't think he's being inconsistent, but I don't think that the tell not show approach that he wants would have made the show better. The first 5 minutes of The Expanse are not the strongest part of the show. They exist to get you to ask questions while setting up the larger mystery that the season deals with. The biggest weakness of that teaser is that everything in it quickly fades into the background and the questions cease to be relevant because we don't see Julie again until the last episode. It's like having a five minute teaser for a ten hour episode, you probably stop caring or remembering after hour 1. General Battuta posted:I don't think The Expanse has gotten great yet. I think it's solid, with moments of greatness. That shot of Avasarala walking through the snow was great, for instance, because it did a lot of work — isolating and empowering her, contrasting Earth's winter with space. The shot of the captive Belter being interrogated presented him as an alien, dangerous thing in a tank, reflecting Avasarala's prejudices and yet showing us (visually) how dangerous Earth can be, physically and politically, to the Belt. I disagree about the show underselling it's big moments, I thought that Holden and Miller's desperation and horror came through fine on Eros. I'm not sure what they could have done to step it up without making another episode honestly. I also actually felt for both the ambassador and Avasarala, he and his husband were bit parts but they managed to get across that he and Avasarala were friends with a long history well enough. I also don't really get what you found lacking about the Donnager fight honestly. The way they've committed to spacebattles doesn't really lend itself to a huge amount of amazing effects shots, it isn't like the weapons are more than deadly points of light on the horizon and you can't exactly frame both sides of a battle in a single shot when combat happens at thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers. Plus the way the battle plays out mostly from the perspective of the Cant survivors, I don't think it is an accident that the fight is not shown clearly and explained fully. The fact is that we are experiencing a deadly fight from the perspective of people that are basically prisoners, they don't have any real clarity of what's going on and neither does the audience. Despite that we still got to see some cool shots of weapons firing and were told enough that we could roughly understand the battle. While I'm not about to call The Expanse a genre defining work from the jump, I don't think that calling it tepidly Fine is fair. It was exciting and the plot rolls well from episode 4 to the end, the characters are well written and the actors give good performances, and the visuals of the ships were handled very well in my opinion. The show is good, and frankly there hasn't been a good new science fiction show for a pretty long time. It would be nice if it could be great, but I'm not going to demand it.
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Feb 24, 2016 02:16
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akulanization posted:33 is one of the best television episodes I've every seen. I don't think it's much of a criticism to say that BSG hit a grand slam the first time it got to the plate and didn't do it repeatedly afterwards. I meant to say that comparing The Expanse just to 33 is unfair, because that was as good as BSG ever got, and while it was a decent show in general it did also have its ups and downs.
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Feb 24, 2016 02:24
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akulanization posted:While I'm not about to call The Expanse a genre defining work from the jump, I don't think that calling it tepidly Fine is fair. It was exciting and the plot rolls well from episode 4 to the end, the characters are well written and the actors give good performances, and the visuals of the ships were handled very well in my opinion. The show is good, and frankly there hasn't been a good new science fiction show for a pretty long time. It would be nice if it could be great, but I'm not going to demand it. Everyone else has done a much better job defining The Expanse's strengths and weaknesses than I could have, so I'll just agree with this and throw out there that it's really loving nice to have a space show that doesn't feel like it's speaking down to me as a fan of the genre, or desperately seeking somebody else's attention in the pursuit of higher ratings. I may not literally be on the edge of my seat each episode but it's been consistently entertaining in a thoughtful way, whereas SyFy's other recent offerings like Dark Matter are "get high and hatewatch" material because they're so stupid.
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Feb 24, 2016 02:34
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akulanization posted:I also don't really get what you found lacking about the Donnager fight honestly. The way they've committed to spacebattles doesn't really lend itself to a huge amount of amazing effects shots, it isn't like the weapons are more than deadly points of light on the horizon and you can't exactly frame both sides of a battle in a single shot when combat happens at thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers. This is a wonderful opportunity to do new and gorgeous effects! No one's ever really tried to depict a hard-ish SF space battle but they're full of opportunities for tension, beauty, and fresh imagery, just the way BSG got striking effects work out of its pseudo-Newtonian space combat and Zoic's excellent lighting/volumetrics work. CIWS are inherently cool — there's a mechanical desperation in the effort to shoot down something right about to kill you. The vast distances and extreme speeds involved forbid the traditional WW2-in-space visual language, sure, but they open up opportunities for starker, more modern visuals, drawing on the vocabulary of over-the-horizon naval combat as much as NASA footage: missile seeker POVs picking the target out of a huge starfield, wide shots of the tiny Donnager surrounded by silent arcs of tracer fire and the flares of intercepted missiles, audio work highlighting the detached, impersonal, eerily calm chatter of the drugged-up crew. Interstellar got a lovely set piece out of a broken, tumbling spaceship by playing with lighting and contrast. Gravity made what was effectively a kinetic weapon coming in from hundred of kilometers away terrifying and foreboding and visceral. There's room for all sorts of amazing effects work in hard-SF space combat, and I wish The Expanse would take the lead! The Donnager fight is fine. It's fine. The acceleration on the torpedoes is a cool, startling touch. The direction puts the cameras a little close to the ships, maybe because they're using a very purposefully (and probably realistically) dark lighting setup and it's hard to pick the ships out of the backdrop. But I think the camerawork is too frantic, and they're not quite getting the work done with their CGI choices...the torpedo impacts, for example, are really diffuse and safe-seeming, and their lighting model makes it pretty hard to interpret some of the shots except as an impressionistic whirl of lights. The railgun CGI is quite cool. It's a good space show, it's obviously one of the better ones ever made. I nitpick because I hope. Also y'all crazy to say BSG peaked at 33, it's an excellent episode but the Pegasus and Exodus arcs are just as strong.
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Feb 24, 2016 02:55
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BSG's change from Zoic to whoever they got for Season 3 onward was terrible. The Resurrection Ship battle FX are so much better than anything else in the series.
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Feb 24, 2016 03:00
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tooterfish posted:Yes. I didn't mean it as a massive criticism of BSG. I agree that 33 is some of the best television I've seen too. Let's not forget Hand of God. Goddamn trench run with a Viper was making me touch my man-nipples in egregious ways. That was literally BSG-new's homage to Star Wars's Ep IV Death Star destruction. Has to be one of the best space ship battle scenes of all time.
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Feb 24, 2016 03:23
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General Battuta posted:This is a wonderful opportunity to do new and gorgeous effects! No one's ever really tried to depict a hard-ish SF space battle but they're full of opportunities for tension, beauty, and fresh imagery, just the way BSG got striking effects work out of its pseudo-Newtonian space combat and Zoic's excellent lighting/volumetrics work. quote:It's a good space show, it's obviously one of the better ones ever made. I nitpick because I hope. Also y'all crazy to say BSG peaked at 33, it's an excellent episode but the Pegasus and Exodus arcs are just as strong.
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Feb 24, 2016 04:15
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I love BSG and heartily recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it. Internet nerds have gotten retroactively mad about it for some reason, but even negative people I think will agree that it is consistently fantastic up to the middle of S3.
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Feb 24, 2016 10:46
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flosofl posted:Jesus, thanks for showing me why I really should unsubscribe to TV Show threads between seasons. Needs to change his name the Specific Rant.
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Feb 24, 2016 11:55
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I'll definitely give 33 a look then! But afterwards you should go back to the mini-series? (I was never sure where to start with that show.)Na'at posted:Maybe next season should start out with a Star Wars style scroll so that everyone has context. tooterfish posted:I feel like you're setting up impossible constraints here. The very first scene in the very first episode of a show doesn't have any context and doesn't mean anything to a fresh viewer? Well no poo poo. Whereas Breaking Bad's intro works because Walt's video message hints at and contextualises a) his panic, b) who he is running from, c) sets up that he has a family and d) the criminal actions that might have got him in an RV filled with corpses wearing little more than a gas mask. You have SPECIFIC questions to ask (Such as "what happened to his pants?"). Julie in the Scopuli just leaves you with one question, and that is: "What?" Because her name and the ship name and the fact that SOMETHING happened to leave it all dark and spooky and make that one corpse is literally all the information you can gleam. That's not the best example for this comparison though. The fact is it's not "impossible constraints" for the show to show us WHY this woman is a room. It doesn't need to flood you with her backstory, the OPA affiliation, the Scopuli or the details of the invaders. But the situation of "there are people boarding our ship, taking us by force and throwing me in a room and saying if I make a sound they'll kill me" is an immediately relatable, exciting and interesting situation that keeps all the mystery. "Woman is in room" is not. It's for the same reason that as a non-book reader of The Expanse, I found Holden's story a lot easier to follow than Miller's. Miller's involved all the complicated backstory and worldbuilding, but Holden's immediate relationships and distress call dilemma were all things I could instantly identify with. I didn't need to know about Epstein engines and Belter political tensions to understand a crew of spacetruckers going "eh, we could investigate this but is it worth our fuel and what is moral, etc." and that made it interesting enough to carry me while they laid groundwork. Na'at posted:What did you find wrong with the cinematography? Seriously with your laundry list I'm waiting for a complaint about the Foley work. One of the most interesting scenes in the show was when Amos was ready to gun down the dudes about to come through the Rocinante's door and Holden was ready to put a bullet in the back of his head to stop him killing those innocent space cops. It was tense and it was one of the first major pieces of characterisation for the two of them. It was the first time I kinda understood the Amos and Holden that the bookreaders in the thread had been talking about the whole time. The way when it's all over Amos just puts the gun back on the wall and walks away like it wasn't a big deal leaving an exhausted, nerve-rattled Holden with his mouth hanging open. On paper it's a brilliant scene, and the actors did a fine job. But the visuals for it were dull. There's a hundred cool, iconic ways to shoot that scene. Amos taking a knee while Holden is behind him like an executioner gives you so many cool angles. But instead, they frame it like a goddamn soap opera. Again, not saying it completely ruins the scene, or the show. But it's an example like General Battuta talks about, where it's not as memorable as it should be and they let themselves down by failing to hit that potential. Rocksicles posted:Needs to change his name the Specific Rant. 
VagueRant fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 15:08
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VagueRant posted:I'll definitely give 33 a look then! But afterwards you should go back to the mini-series? (I was never sure where to start with that show.) Watch the miniseries first. I was really confused starting from 33. The miniseries is good except they hadn't gotten Bear McCreary on the music yet. You won't understand the true meaning of flashlights if you don't watch the miniseries.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:19
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VagueRant posted:Julie in the Scopuli just leaves you with one question, and that is: "What?" Because her name and the ship name and the fact that SOMETHING happened to leave it all dark and spooky and make that one corpse is literally all the information you can gleam. The opening doesn't take place in the Scopuli by the way... I'm not sure how you missed that, there's an entire episode spent on that reveal. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 15:36
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Grand Fromage posted:Watch the miniseries first. I was really confused starting from 33. The miniseries is good except they hadn't gotten Bear McCreary on the music yet. Yeah, the miniseries was basically a three hour test pilot to see if they wanted to make a full out series of a rebooted BSG. Watching 33 first will spoil one twist from the end of the miniseries but it is still a great way to see if you want to commit to more; the miniseries is good regardless and worth watching whether first or second.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:49
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I think you should go with the miniseries first. When I first tried watching, I started with 33 and kept thinking I had missed something. It just starts off going crazy without saying why they are doing any of what they are doing. Watching the miniseries made a lot more sense. Watch the miniseries and get through it if you're not liking it. Then watch 33. If you don't like the show after 33, it probably isn't for you.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:05
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Yeah 33 just drops you right into the thick of it, which is why it's great. I agree, if you're weird and don't like the miniseries for some reason then watch that and you'll be in.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:12
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Definitely watch the BSG miniseries first.VagueRant posted:One of the most interesting scenes in the show was when Amos was ready to gun down the dudes about to come through the Rocinante's door and Holden was ready to put a bullet in the back of his head to stop him killing those innocent space cops. Camera work aside, something else bothered me about that scene: the wall behind them has several suits of Martian marine body armor on display. I know time is short and all, but at least throw on a vest or something.
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Feb 24, 2016 16:15
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Just finished the first season and I was blown away. I did read a few of the books, though a long time ago, so a lot of the time I couldn't remember if stuff was new to the show or adapted from the books. Does anyone know if there's a good comparison between the show and book versions out there? book: Specifically, I seem to recall Julie Mao being a character later on, after her infection, but I could be misremembering
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Feb 24, 2016 20:32
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zoux posted:Just finished the first season and I was blown away. I did read a few of the books, though a long time ago, so a lot of the time I couldn't remember if stuff was new to the show or adapted from the books. Does anyone know if there's a good comparison between the show and book versions out there? book: Specifically, I seem to recall Julie Mao being a character later on, after her infection, but I could be misremembering book spoilers:that's her sister, Clarissa Mao who appears in later books. Julie herself has been metabolized by the protomolecule though portions of her consciousness still exist.
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Feb 24, 2016 20:39
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