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Magnusth posted:Okay, after reading through the full documentation, i'm pretty loving certain that no sex is going t happen. That said, i don't get your hangup regarding the very idea of simulating sex at a larp. If you're at a larp where sexuality is in some way a theme - which is true of basicly any vampire larp - and your audience is old enough to explore that in very much playing your game For The Art, - or hell, even if the game just incidentially happens to be artsy or encurage play around that area - then having some way to play with or around sex probably a good thing, no? Coercive power dynamics laced with the means for sexualized harassment is a real issue to be accounted for, if you aren't actually thrilled at the prospect of making your society predatory against the least able to voice themselves. Ending scenes and "Fading to Black" is not a catch-all solution when in a social hierarchy that doesn't self-police and celebrates people that choose to end the fun for the player that was the least uncomfortable. Hearing Nordic Larpers talk about Bleed in hushed and reverant tones reminds me of the way crossfit fans talk about their milky-brown urine after a workout. These aren't indicators of an "intense" lifestyle. I'm sure there is a way to explain Nordic Larp that doesn't make it appear to be a thin veneer over 199X creepy sex dungeon rave. Perhaps the professional Brand Architect should do that rather than working on his ready-to-rumble Toreador Elder costume.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:08
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Yeah. When I took over as Awakening line Developer, Rose sent me as many files as she'd recovered from CCP, including some of the early iterations of Mage. I think it's reasonably common knowledge that the Atlantis backstory was added reasonably late on, which is why it has a disproportionate prominence in the final book's writing. I.E. a game of "the hermatics are right"?
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Feb 25, 2016 20:11
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Magnusth posted:I.E. a game of "the hermatics are right"? That's just regular Ascension.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:12
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I love Awakening's Atlantis dearly. What other possible goal, short of restoring a perfect universe, would be suitable for characters who can reshape reality to their whims?
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Feb 25, 2016 20:21
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Gerund posted:Coercive power dynamics laced with the means for sexualized harassment is a real issue to be accounted for, if you aren't actually thrilled at the prospect of making your society predatory against the least able to voice themselves. Ending scenes and "Fading to Black" is not a catch-all solution when in a social hierarchy that doesn't self-police and celebrates people that choose to end the fun for the player that was the least uncomfortable. Okay, so, nordic larp is a lot of stuff, ad most of it has no relation to sex, and i think it's unfortunate that that seems to be the main takeaway most people have of Nordic Larp. Further, well... I've been to and played various forms of nordic larp, from jeepform to CoW and edularps, some highly immersive I'm not a master experienced nordic larper, but i do have contact with the community, and while you're right that coercive power dynamics can be a real problem, it's not an unknown one or an undiscussed one. If someone cuts, you actively take steps to make sure that person is okay, contact the organizers and provide any and all help you can. Even when doing emotionally charged text rp, there was a back-and-forth on a meta or offgame level to make sure everyone was on board, and active dicussion of how to escalate or descalate as needed and wanted. I can't claim that nothing untowards has never happened in the Nordic larp community, but there is a focus on safty, on power mechanics, bounderies and making sure that expectations match. I've heard of some problems in the broader, often younger or more male fantasy larps and such, but never in nordic larp. I made sure to ask my female friends, to make sure i wasn't just seeing what i wanted to see, and both of them report always having felt safe, and that that even in intense or hardcore scenes with relative strangers, they knew bounderies and felt secure.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:49
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Attorney at Funk posted:That's just regular Ascension. Fight me.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:49
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Magnusth posted:Okay, so, nordic larp is a lot of stuff, ad most of it has no relation to sex, and i think it's unfortunate that that seems to be the main takeaway most people have of Nordic Larp. I think this might have something to do with the fact that the first big WoD LARP since the Paradox acquisition is promoting itself with phrases like "the weirdest sex" as a selling point. You yourself acknowledged that this probably wasn't the best foot forward, and I know at least in America that there are plenty of stories about idiot LARPers who don't understand the concept of proper boundaries whether it comes to bopping someone with a foam sword, being rowdy and obnoxious in public, or inappropriate contact.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:58
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Magnusth posted:Fight me. What would be the point? The Ascension war was lost.
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Feb 25, 2016 21:00
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Kai Tave posted:I think this might have something to do with the fact that the first big WoD LARP since the Paradox acquisition is promoting itself with phrases like "the weirdest sex" as a selling point. You yourself acknowledged that this probably wasn't the best foot forward, and I know at least in America that there are plenty of stories about idiot LARPers who don't understand the concept of proper boundaries whether it comes to bopping someone with a foam sword, being rowdy and obnoxious in public, or inappropriate contact. I get how it happened, i just think it's unfortunate. And i don't think this was supposed to be their first big larp in public, just a curiosity for the nordic-larp inclined. We'll see. I think that we'll see a propper big first larp later.
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Feb 25, 2016 21:09
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Ferrinus posted:I very, very vaguely remember very vague intimations MalcolmSheppard made years ago as to an older version of VtR Celerity that had to be divided up between attack and defense by the turn and nearly caused playtesters to come to blows when used, or something. That just sort of sucked for being confusing. What we really hated was that in one iteration the first die in your pool was always TN 10. Of course this is still there, sort of, in that 0 dice is TN 10, but in this you always had one TN 10 die.
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Feb 25, 2016 21:18
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MalcolmSheppard posted:That just sort of sucked for being confusing. What we really hated was that in one iteration the first die in your pool was always TN 10. Of course this is still there, sort of, in that 0 dice is TN 10, but in this you always had one TN 10 die. drat, did you have to literally throw it first or make sure it was a different color or something? That'd be really easy to implement if you were using like, an IRC dice roller or something, but...
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Feb 25, 2016 21:20
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quote:NordicLARP I haven't got to play any over here in the states, but I've been fascinated by reading about them. What drew me initially was all the ways in which they seemed to get past the typical OWbN, Camarilla, LotN, Mind'sEye structure we have here that really detract from its potential (imo). Things like actively needing agreement between players for consequences, negotiation style play more akin to joint-writing projects or improv than the PvP focused political competition of Cam games that almost always jumps to organizational competition. Old callbacks to real troupe-style play where you didn't need an active storyteller that vanished when MC Classes and auto-XP dripped into the orgs. I have a hard time imagining the game that straddles those two genres, so I'ma wait and see. Hopefully the teaser is just that, and trying to bring sexy back into Nordic games as a direct theme. But regardless, even if it is a total shitshow - that's on White Wolf, not the Nordic LARP genre. In my mind it pretty closely follows my feelings of oWod and nWod - it would be like like WW trying to make a game that loots the best parts of Onyx Path and jams them into an oWod frame that... OH WAIT :P
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Feb 25, 2016 21:37
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Attorney at Funk posted:That's badass. Until you want someone to heal bashing from a power, which makes that healing power an accidental form of Celerity.
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Feb 25, 2016 23:22
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Until you want someone to heal bashing from a power, which makes that healing power an accidental form of Celerity. Actually, that's exactly what makes it badass. A vampire gets 2 extra turns for 1 Vitae!
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Feb 25, 2016 23:23
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Magnusth posted:I.E. a game of "the hermatics are right"? Heh. Sort of. There was a Hermetic substructure but this was for our convenience. At one point the Traditions were basically ur-paradigms for a bunch of sensible game design and theme reasons. It was 10 Arcana mostly; I think the 7 may have solely me saying to Bill, "gently caress it, we should just have seven Arcana," because I thought we could drop Prime completely, merge Fate and Time and never implement Death. There was a common backstory for mages immediately, though it went in and out of prominence. Atlantis' role actually shifted to different parts of the setting across drafts.
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Feb 25, 2016 23:33
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Attorney at Funk posted:Actually, that's exactly what makes it badass. A vampire gets 2 extra turns for 1 Vitae! It was limited to 1 per turn. Nevertheless, it interacted with a lot of things in wonky ways. I think there's a sidebar in Mirrors where I mention it and some other stuff that was discarded as optional rules. At one point I argued for replacing Defense with an Action Pool of Wits + Dex you could use to drop successes from attacks, or add dice to attacks. No takers -- it was felt that the gamers we were targeting didn't want to screw around with a turn by turn resource. I eventually adapted this into an optional rule that shows up in the Mage Chronicler's Guide.
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Feb 25, 2016 23:40
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MalcolmSheppard posted:It was limited to 1 per turn. Nevertheless, it interacted with a lot of things in wonky ways. I think there's a sidebar in Mirrors where I mention it and some other stuff that was discarded as optional rules. The advantage of such a system (besides that it's probably easier to fiddle with and add special properties to when it comes to making up supernatural powers) is that it wouldn't require any back and forth between attacker and defender - I don't have to ask you what your Defense or Armor is when assembling my own pool, I just roll it and pass "3 lethal damage" or whatever on to you, and then you decide what to do about it in your own time. However, I broadly agree with your opponents that requiring resource allocation decisions after each and every attack is probably too much. I've played around with "defense pools" like that before, and have always figured that the way you set them up in order to skip past potential hemming-and-hawing from the defender is to just make defense points automatically spent: any damage you take automatically tears away Defense points first, and if you take real wounds for any reason, you lose that many Defense points at the same time (such that there's no question of like, neglecting to apply your Defense to an earlier attack because you're more afraid of the damage type of a later one).
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Feb 26, 2016 00:00
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Gerund posted:Coercive power dynamics laced with the means for sexualized harassment is a real issue to be accounted for, if you aren't actually thrilled at the prospect of making your society predatory against the least able to voice themselves. Ending scenes and "Fading to Black" is not a catch-all solution when in a social hierarchy that doesn't self-police and celebrates people that choose to end the fun for the player that was the least uncomfortable. Tzimisce Elder, actually
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Feb 26, 2016 00:16
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If there is one thing that comes to mind about oWoD larpers is that, if you locked them in a room together long enough, they would eventually kill each other over pronunciation.
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Feb 26, 2016 01:16
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NordicLARP is basically who can give the best blowjob to the organizers in return for the most powers and/or plot relevance.
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Feb 26, 2016 01:21
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DJ Dizzy posted:NordicLARP is basically who can give the best blowjob to the organizers in return for the most powers and/or plot relevance. Show your work.
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Feb 26, 2016 01:33
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How long would I have to live if I called them Tuhz-misky?
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Feb 26, 2016 01:33
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Magnusth posted:Show your work. I can't. I can only perform 
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Feb 26, 2016 01:40
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Magnusth posted:Okay, so, nordic larp is a lot of stuff, ad most of it has no relation to sex, and i think it's unfortunate that that seems to be the main takeaway most people have of Nordic Larp. As the fellow with the most personal experience, would you ever attend or organize a College of Wizardry game- where there was both the proper meta-techniques and the expectation to use them as part of "the game"- in which the professors could isolate a student and demand sexual favors in exchange for better grades? If this has never existed in the past or crossed your mind to exist, shouldn't that fact that it goes beyond the realm of good taste be a hint?
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Feb 26, 2016 01:53
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Gerund posted:As the fellow with the most personal experience, would you ever attend or organize a College of Wizardry game- where there was both the proper meta-techniques and the expectation to use them as part of "the game"- in which the professors could isolate a student and demand sexual favors in exchange for better grades? Okay, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make exactly, but whatever it is i'd like to engage with it. That said, sure, just dumping that element into CoW would be wierd and strange, but if you were designing a game around exploring the wierd and creepy powerdynamics of Sudent/teacher sexual relationships, you'd build a fundamentally different game. But the point of metatechniques is that you don't do whatever you're doing symbolicly. If you were doing this in a nordic larp, there would, real life, be other people around, even if the scene was only your two charecters.
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Feb 26, 2016 02:22
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Luminous Obscurity posted:How long would I have to live if I called them Tuhz-misky? You laugh but I once saw two nerds get into a near-to-blows screaming match because one them kept saying "MAK-luh-vihns"
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Feb 26, 2016 03:11
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Mendrian posted:You laugh but I once saw two nerds get into a near-to-blows screaming match because one them kept saying "MAK-luh-vihns"
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Feb 26, 2016 03:18
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Macklemores
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Feb 26, 2016 03:44
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Gerund posted:As the fellow with the most personal experience, would you ever attend or organize a College of Wizardry game- where there was both the proper meta-techniques and the expectation to use them as part of "the game"- in which the professors could isolate a student and demand sexual favors in exchange for better grades? You seem to be railing against something of a strawman here. Like, if someone were to organize a Harry Potter LARP where it was expected that teachers demand sexual favours in exchange for better grades, it would probably be one which has 18 PLUS ADULT SEXUAL THEMES PLEASE ONLY JOIN IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH SEXUAL SCENES: TRIGGER WARNING POWER RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT plastered all over every piece of documentation the LARP has. It would probably come with a preface saying something like "This is the kind of LARP where we want to explore the power dynamics between teachers and students in a boarding school settings, and it will involve teachers demanding sexual favours in exchange for better grades. This is the kind of thing we expect to happen; only join if you are comfortable with this.". Then, since it did include such sexual themes, there'd probably be a fuckton of rules on what is and isn't acceptable in-character/out-of-character behaviour, as well as "safewords" players can shout when they want a LARP coordinator (or anyone nearby) to intervene. Then on top of this, from my experience, there'd be a role coordinator who makes sure that all characters conform to the purpose of the LARP, write roles, and vet write-ins. This person would have the responsibility to make sure that if a player gets handed a character, that player is comfortable with what is expected to happen to the role. Then there'd be coordinators all over the place to make sure that everyone are following the rules. Like, I'm not sure where you get the idea that LARPers with student-roles will suddenly be put into a position where they're blackmailed into sex against the player's will with no out? Everyone would be consenting to the kind of roleplay the LARP is about and have the ability to withdraw consent at any moment. Perhaps someone will be made uncomfortable anyway, but someone stepping over a line could happen in any LARP, no matter how chaste. All these safeguards could fail, but nothing's stopping you from playing the Rapist Teacher in a regular, chaste Harry Potter LARP either... except all those safeguards.
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Feb 26, 2016 05:13
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Every once and a while my decison not to go to gaming conventions or ever LARP makes me feel pretty good.
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Feb 26, 2016 08:27
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Conventions are nowhere near as awful as LARPs can get, if my experience with WoD chat games is any indication.
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Feb 26, 2016 08:33
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spectralent posted:I feel like Beast is a product of that thing where you have an idea in your head that's cool, then you write it down, and it's not the same idea but you react badly to criticism of the idea in-text because it's an attack of the idea in-head. Like, I'm sure this isn't meant to be the game that makes clear that the gay people stand-in victimises children, but that's the product, and it's not getting changed massively because it's someone's brainchild. I can see that. Platonic idea vs practical execution vs audience responding to a product in a manner (justified or not) that you did not intend is a situation that happens to all creatives. LatwPIAT posted:Actual research Thanks for taking the time to do this. Dave Brookshaw posted:All of the 2e games have had what I would call a Concept and Design phase - Requiem, Forsaken, and Awakening especially. What's changed is that it's the same people as the writers, so there's no need to credit them separately. Very interesting to have insight on the process guys, thanks. Calde posted:Beast remains the most fascinating mess to pick at because groups like MRAs so frequently adopt the language of marginalized groups, which the book replicates flawlessly on behalf of the Beasts. The book is constantly railing on about oppressed Beasts who suffer no oppression at all. They're supposedly the ostracized group yet others are compelled to welcome them and befriend them wherever they go. They're the victims of those meanie Heroes, when in truth Beasts are habitual abusers who relish causing pain. I haven't read the most recent version of Beast so my opinions are of dubious accuracy. However, I know that. It seems like this idea (bolded) is sort of like an idea that was introduced in Changing the Lost and then was extended to it's natural conclusion in Beast. In CtL I think it was the autumn fae that could recharge their energy by frightening mortals. The reason was something like "well I'm just giving the mortal a scare and he will know to avoid supernatural places next time and avoid dangers greater than myself." Seems like this logic was just turned up to 11 in Beast. Am I wrong here?
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Feb 26, 2016 09:57
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Helical Nightmares posted:I haven't read the most recent version of Beast so my opinions are of dubious accuracy. However, I know that. It seems like this idea (bolded) is sort of like an idea that was introduced in Changing the Lost and then was extended to it's natural conclusion in Beast. In CtL I think it was the autumn fae that could recharge their energy by frightening mortals. The reason was something like "well I'm just giving the mortal a scare and he will know to avoid supernatural places next time and avoid dangers greater than myself." The thing is that Beast, the book, goes out of its way to paint the titular Beasts as unambiguously in the right regardless of how lovely or heinous or self-serving they act. Changeling, so far as I recall, doesn't. Autumn changelings may want to put a scare in mortals for many well-intended reasons, and sometimes may even resort to cruel or potentially even murderous methods to reinforce the idea of Stay The gently caress Away From This Place, but the author isn't tripping over themselves to extol those changelings as totally being in the right by making all their victims fedora-wearing MRA PUA frat boy bigots so the changelings/their players can feel smugly superior about owning them. Most of the nWoD games in general are happy to present players with plenty of opportunities to be self-serving shitbags or legitimate monsters without having to pander to the players by making the people they do terrible things to strawmen for them to beat up, nor do those games usually involve the author attempting to sugar-coat those terrible things as "teaching people a necessary lesson" like they should be grateful to you for abusing them because it's for their own good and hey, they were asking for it. Beast would be a disgusting game even if it didn't then compound the issue by trying to have Beasts be a stand-in for persecuted minorities on top of everything else.
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Feb 26, 2016 10:10
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The difference is that Changelings, IIRC, could feed off fear energy that they didn't directly cause, and it didn't have to be malicious- a haunted house, scary movie night, etc. would generate Glamour just as stalking and terrorizing people would. Maybe not as effectively, but there's the rub with all the courts except Spring. Beasts have to hurt people, and the book contorts itself into portraying them in a good light.
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Feb 26, 2016 10:12
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Kavak posted:Conventions are nowhere near as awful as LARPs can get, if my experience with WoD chat games is any indication. Yes. The only time you might ever find yourself lauding virtual pedophilia is when you've gotten to see its literal counterpart in action. But then, that's why I instituted an 18-up rule when I helped organize games. Which was tough because I wasn't much older at the time and I was basically cutting friends out of the game, but at a certain point you find you can only tolerate 0% risk for that sort of thing.
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Feb 26, 2016 10:32
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The only time you might ever find yourself lauding virtual pedophilia is when you've gotten to see its literal counterpart in action. Christ on Golgotha. I'd suggest the Good, Bad, And Catpiss Thread but I don't know if it would help. 
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Feb 26, 2016 10:38
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Helical Nightmares posted:I can see that. Platonic idea vs practical execution vs audience responding to a product in a manner (justified or not) that you did not intend is a situation that happens to all creatives. Because Changeling is my jam and I must always defend it's e-honour: Changelings feed on ambient emotions of any sort. The autumn court is slightly better at fear. They can cause people fear to create it, but they can also, for example, lurk in a graveyard and wait for people to just go "Man graveyards are spooky", or go on a rollercoaster and soak it up. There is a "I will scare them off a thing" group, called the Scarecrow Ministry, but their jam isn't justifying their own power charging, it's that they locate areas like trods where the barrier between the real world and the hedge (where true fae can kidnap you, or come out and kidnap you) is weak, and make these places "haunted" so that people don't go near them and get their asses kidnapped by story monsters.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:24
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spectralent posted:Because Changeling is my jam and I must always defend it's e-honour: Yeah, came to post this. Beasts, on the other hand, seem to teach people lessons as an afterthought. They torture and murder to feed their hunger and then someone learns something maybe I dunno whatever. It's almost like the whole learning thing was a lovely justification added in to Beast late and the author isn't really behind the idea.
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Feb 26, 2016 14:56
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Essentially if a Beast and a Scarecrow Minister are in the same area the Scarecrow Minister will be the one making creepy moaning sounds behind a wall and painting the walls with pig's blood when nobody's looking to scare people off before the Beast shows up and breaks someone's legs to charge up their superpowers.
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Feb 26, 2016 15:19
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The new Mage video supplement is looking pretty baller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktnG_2-VXA0
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Feb 26, 2016 15:21
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