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OK pal if you say so. Regardless, Obama's 2008 victory (I voted and donated to him!) didn't stop me from coming around eventually. It's fine though, everyone's path to anti-revisionist scientific socialism is different.
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Feb 25, 2016 19:02
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obama voters minus the minorities isn't a winning coalition
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Feb 25, 2016 19:06
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:OK pal if you say so. Regardless, Obama's 2008 victory (I voted and donated to him!) didn't stop me from coming around eventually. It's fine though, everyone's path to anti-revisionist scientific socialism is different. I see 2 paths to radicalization President Bernie signs the TPP Bernie tells his voters to vote for Hillary instead of forming a pressure group to oust moderate democrats and keep her accountable Even then u have to be dumb to believe that people are going to go over to unhinged smelly Stalinists
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Feb 25, 2016 19:12
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The Saurus posted:obama voters minus the minorities isn't a winning coalition It's Obama voters and working class whites plus Latinos As well as some blacks and an overwhelming majority of independents
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Feb 25, 2016 19:14
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Top City Homo posted:It's Obama voters and working class whites plus Latinos Don't see too many independents voting in the democratic primary And the Clinton team are claiming they won with latinos in nevada, otherwise they couldn't have won clark county by the margin they did
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Feb 25, 2016 19:18
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Top City Homo posted:Bernie tells his voters to vote for Hillary instead of forming a pressure group to oust moderate democrats and keep her accountable just FYI there is absolutely zero chance this does not happen if she wins the nom he will be campaigning super hard for her and making the case that she'll support economic justice if Clinton is the nominee but can get a sizable fraction of Bernie's base to the polls she will defeat any republican and her team knows this
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Feb 25, 2016 19:28
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The Saurus posted:Don't see too many independents voting in the democratic primary I'm talking about national polls
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Feb 25, 2016 19:30
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:just FYI there is absolutely zero chance this does not happen if she wins the nom That's why it depends on how he will theoretically react if he doesn't win at the convention Does he want a national movement or will he take the historically disastrous path of reforming from inside the Clinton administration as a token progressive leaf shut out of actual decision making tarnishing his reputation and the politically revolution he cares about That's my rubicon in measuring his success My hope is that he takes on Debs' legacy seriously
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Feb 25, 2016 19:35
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Nobody outside of SA or Reddit will be swapping from Bernie to Trump. His biggest internet support base (Facebook) loathes the Donald even more than they hate Clinton and will mobilize against him.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:30
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Top City Homo posted:That's why it depends on how he will theoretically react if he doesn't win at the convention Well if it makes you feel any better he definitely won't be reforming the Clinton administration, because her machine will undoubtedly do everything to destroy him for ever crossing her lol But yeah he's going to endorse her, like he already repeatedly said he would, and then he'll face a primary challenger to his Senate seat from a young candidate with "bright new ideas" and a mysteriously large war chest
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Feb 25, 2016 20:38
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Anyway remember when the PSL threw their support behind Roseanne Barr for the 2012 California ballot, that was a stunning victory for socialism
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Feb 25, 2016 21:01
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walgreenslatino posted:Well if it makes you feel any better he definitely won't be reforming the Clinton administration, because her machine will undoubtedly do everything to destroy him for ever crossing her lol we'll see
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Feb 25, 2016 22:10
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walgreenslatino posted:Anyway remember when the PSL threw their support behind Roseanne Barr for the 2012 California ballot, that was a stunning victory for socialism quote:1. FOR THE EARTH TO LIVE, CAPITALISM MUST END
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Feb 25, 2016 22:15
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Fiction posted:Nobody outside of SA or Reddit will be swapping from Bernie to Trump. His biggest internet support base (Facebook) loathes the Donald even more than they hate Clinton and will mobilize against him. The only Sanders supporters who hate Trump are the dumb millenials who barely turn out anyway. Plenty will write in Sanders or go third party, and more will switch to Trump than you think. Especially once the General actually starts, and Trump loving destroys Shillary in the media war.
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Feb 25, 2016 22:33
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quote:2. MAKE A JOB A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT is there any consideration towards reducing the standard work week or are we gonna have a huge amount of makework to make sure everyone's putting in that magic forty hours
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Feb 25, 2016 23:48
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There's a ton of useful work you can get done if you're going for full employment. Send everyone to do minor repairs, gardening work, cleaning at each other's houses. Hold classes and events for one another based on specialities, teach Americans about nutrition and how to cook. A lot of people would probably choose to work 20-30 hours a week instead of the minimum wage was $20 an hour though, and that's fine.
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Feb 26, 2016 00:05
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you couldn't take a 15 minute walk without finding work worth paying someone to do poo poo you probably can't even look out the window
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Feb 26, 2016 01:54
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there's tons of work to be done, but wage labor is an extremely crappy way to go about it anecdote: just joined a commie science group, all volunteer, all donated lab equipment. in six months of evenings and weekends they've gone from not knowing poo poo about biology to expressing insulin in e.coli, in hopes to one day make medicine free. they're still optimizing the plasmid construct, but it warms my red heart. that sort of poo poo would take over a year in a university lab, or several in a pharma lab, because wage work is indeed miserable and should be actually abolished in favor of voluntary labor.
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Feb 26, 2016 05:11
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How do you get people to volunteer to do the crappy jobs that need to be done, instead of just doing the jobs that everyone wants? It sounds like you would need to choose people, based on who the state thinks is least valuable elsewhere, and force them to do those jobs.
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Feb 26, 2016 06:28
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The Saurus posted:How do you get people to volunteer to do the crappy jobs that need to be done, instead of just doing the jobs that everyone wants? with music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ9uhDzN-rA
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Feb 26, 2016 06:38
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To some degree, the same way those jobs are accomplished in our present society: no matter how disgusting or unpleasant some task might seem (to you), there are people who are able and willing to do it. The big, but simple, difference would be that instead of decisions of economic production being made by a handful of capitalists, they would be made democratically.
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Feb 26, 2016 07:15
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Wage labour is the only reasonable way to do it, that's still true in a planned economy as much as it is a market economy. You cannot wave your loving hands and expect there to be the exact number of people needed to do whatever jobs your allocating, they will have to match exactly.
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Feb 26, 2016 07:38
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An outrageous, unsupportable claim. I'll give your goalposts a running start.
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Feb 26, 2016 08:18
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I'll save you the trouble and backpedal them slightly - You're going to have to resort to some coercive method as a simple result of acting in the real world. For every vocation that needs X people to do it, you can't afford to have a number too far from X. To say "there are some" is totally irrelevant to the actual practical requirements of running society. You're simply not going to find enough scat fetishists to work in the sewers. Which means you'll either A: allocate based on the threat of force, or other negative incentives - "you do this or we gently caress you up", B: vary compensation, or C: place (irrelevant) minimum skill requirements on all other jobs so that the skill-less end up doing the worst poo poo. Which of those is preferable? I prefer B, purely B, because I feel that's the most moral. Well, guess what, wage labor with a variable, chosen wage is a good way to go about that.
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Feb 26, 2016 08:41
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The Saurus posted:How do you get people to volunteer to do the crappy jobs that need to be done, instead of just doing the jobs that everyone wants? robots & kulaks NEXT
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Feb 26, 2016 09:41
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rudatron posted:Well, guess what, wage labor with a variable, chosen wage is a good way to go about that. or you just recycle your waste back into food at POU i should write something up about this, but recent advances in artificial photosynthesis, as well as microreactors, are putting actual food replicators (and medicine, and basic chemistry) on the 50-year horizon. what happens when workers are able to strike indefinitely? edit: don't delay the glorious revolution for this poo poo though, fight where you stand Mofabio fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 10:23
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:An outrageous, unsupportable claim. I'll give your goalposts a running start. Compensation varied during Stalin's era, and workers could be paid more according to their productivity. The Soviet system also utilized varied compensation schemes in order to attract workers to necessary fields. If you needed more plumbers, then the announcement would go out that salaries for plumbers had just been increased, and so forth. But let's not consider Actually Existing Socialism. 
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Feb 26, 2016 16:24
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Every Leninist knows that equalisation in the sphere of requirements and individual life is a piece of reactionary petit-bourgeois absurdity worthy of a primitive sect of ascetics, but not of a socialist society organised on Marxian lines.
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Feb 26, 2016 16:34
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you can also have wage labour in a society without it being the organising principle of the society and the only alternative to starvation you don't shovel poo poo because otherwise you die, you shovel poo poo because you want a bonus to buy something cool but scarce
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Feb 26, 2016 16:43
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Enjoy posted:Every Leninist knows that equalisation in the sphere of requirements and individual life is a piece of reactionary petit-bourgeois absurdity worthy of a primitive sect of ascetics, but not of a socialist society organised on Marxian lines. To a Marxist, equality means the abolition of the classes. 
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Feb 26, 2016 17:07
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I object to a blanket characterization of all worker compensation as "wages" and I also reject the statement that wage differentials are the only, or even the most effective, noncoercive tool available to economic planners to make sure labor demands are met.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:39
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what's your plan to make sure the poop gets shovelled dr zimbardo
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Feb 26, 2016 17:43
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take away ur keyboard (reduces input) and give u a shovel (provides output), Saurus
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Feb 26, 2016 17:51
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:take away ur keyboard (reduces input) and give u a shovel (provides output), Saurus If you don't have a real alternative to "wage" schemes for us to consider, then don't waste our time.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you don't have a real alternative to "wage" schemes for us to consider, then don't waste our time. People volunteer to do dangerous or unpleasant work all the time because work is a good thing in itself, and its nice to help out your community. Just ask any of the troops who volunteered to defend America by killing babies for less than minimum wage.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:07
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1488 posted:People volunteer to do dangerous or unpleasant work all the time because work is a good thing in itself, and its nice to help out your community. Just ask any of the troops who volunteered to defend America by killing babies for less than minimum wage. Then I guess the military doesn't need free healthcare, post-service education funding, and other benefits to meet their recruitment goals. Being a soldier in service to his or her country or people is also a glorified social position that attracts volunteers, in a way that say - honeydipping doesn't.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:25
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edit: n/m
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Feb 26, 2016 18:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you don't have a real alternative to "wage" schemes for us to consider, then don't waste our time. I would hesitate to describe something like a nonmonetary, earned labor-hour token as a "wage" though perhaps that is a pointless semantic waste of time (although wasting time compared to what).
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Feb 26, 2016 18:49
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:is there any consideration towards reducing the standard work week or are we gonna have a huge amount of makework to make sure everyone's putting in that magic forty hours a 35-hour workweek was achieved in the ussr back in the early 20th century, there's no reason it couldn't drop to 25 or 30 with automation being what it is. this also helps us get to full employment
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Feb 26, 2016 19:05
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rudatron posted:You're simply not going to find enough scat fetishists to work in the sewers. Which means you'll either A: allocate based on the threat of force, or other negative incentives - "you do this or we gently caress you up", B: vary compensation, or C: place (irrelevant) minimum skill requirements on all other jobs so that the skill-less end up doing the worst poo poo.
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Feb 26, 2016 19:14
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