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The issue is Exalted 3e has provided us with a case study in what happens when you try and make everything as involved as combat.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:17
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so the dm has to create 4-5 puzzles for every encounter? not to mention your idea was like a sliding picture puzzle which doesn't provide options for power usage, also it's really cool in this social game to give everyone their little puzzles and tell them to not interact. like maybe the idea of making skill use more like combat has merit but then you have every lockpicking or diplomacy or whatever use taking forever like a puzzle inherently turns every skill use into "constantly roll untill you pass" because you cant pass untill you finish the puzzle. should everyone play a round of fruit ninja to see if their attack connects?
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Feb 26, 2016 13:31
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Gort posted:Is "there's a door, it's locked, roll until you unlock it, no penalty for failing" actually a scenario anyone puts in their game, though? Unfortunately, yes, there are tons of bad DMs who do exactly this.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:37
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spectralent posted:The issue is Exalted 3e has provided us with a case study in what happens when you try and make everything as involved as combat.
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Feb 26, 2016 14:24
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My Lovely Horse posted:And then there are folks like my one player who pumps one skill sky-high, as much as 4E allows, and then tries to find ways to use that skill for absolutely everything; and who makes that skill Endurance of all things. Should've gone for Arcana, which can actually be substituted for drat near everything.
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Feb 26, 2016 16:05
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:The rules definitely aren't the thing Ex3 is a case study in. It can be a case study in several things  But, for real, you basically can't try and make everything as involved as combat, because there's too much everything and trying to give as many options and decision points for all of them is unwieldy. More likely you want to pick a couple of things and focus on related areas. So, sneaking, fighting and lockpicking, maybe, but not fighting and magic puzzles.
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Feb 26, 2016 16:21
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Endurance is either a really useful skill or totally useless, since it's basically impossible to use it in an active attempt to do something. Streetwise is "Why aren't we rolling Diplomacy, again?" Also, Dungeoneering is down there with Streetwise as one of the "not even the game actually expects you to roll this skill." There are maybe five items in the game that boost your Dungeoneering check, and only three that boost Streetwise (though the Guttersnipe theme actually gives you a +5 bonus to your Streetwise checks under the fairly understandable position of "what could you possibly do with that?"). I like that there's the Dungeon Experience feat that lets you tag Dungeoneering for Thievery to deal with locks and traps because it helps me make a maximum techpriest out of an Oghma warpriest, but that's a marginal feat that's only really useful in a very corner-case scenario where you also happen to get bonus feats. Generic Octopus posted:Should've gone for Arcana, which can actually be substituted for drat near everything. There's a few of them, but Arcana is definitely the big dog here in terms of giving you the most bang for your optimization bucks. There's also comedy options like Kord's Strength (substitute Athletics check for Strength check) and Nimble Shoes (substitute Acrobatics checks for Athletics checks) which combine to let you cartwheel your way through walls (even funnier if you're a halfling rogue with Duelist's Panache, which adds your Charisma modifier to your checks and lets you get a monstrously high score).
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Feb 26, 2016 17:01
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I think 13th age also says it, but a system I played had a general rule for rolling skills and whatnot: Only rule if failure would be interesting. Not if there's a chance of failure, but if a failure would actually create an interesting new predicament. Like even in combat "do cool poo poo" can probably just be a standard action if it's a mechanical advantage they're looking for, or a move or minor if it's some stylistic thing like grabbing onto a chandelier and swinging into an enemy.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:05
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LightWarden posted:Also, Dungeoneering is down there with Streetwise as one of the "not even the game actually expects you to roll this skill." There are maybe five items in the game that boost your Dungeoneering check, and only three that boost Streetwise (though the Guttersnipe theme actually gives you a +5 bonus to your Streetwise checks under the fairly understandable position of "what could you possibly do with that?").
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Feb 26, 2016 17:12
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You kinda have to force Streetwise to matter. In the Zeitgeist game I've been talking about, Streetwise took the place of a general "Policework and Investigation" skill. Go around town, try to get information, get in touch with contacts, etc. Unfortunately, this means it's primarily useful as a "cutscene" and/or skill challenge skill. Like "Roll Streetwise to see if you track down the suspect and/or find some hints for the safe-house" instead of actually playing out the search. Once you find your suspect, Streetwise just seems weird.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:20
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dwarf74 posted:You kinda have to force Streetwise to matter. In the Zeitgeist game I've been talking about, Streetwise took the place of a general "Policework and Investigation" skill. Go around town, try to get information, get in touch with contacts, etc. Streetwise is the Arcana of the city, and should be your go-to roll for anything the players want to do in an urban environment. Edit: Just like Dungeoneering is the Arcana of dungeons and mazes, and Nature is the Arcana of the natural environment. slap me and kiss me fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 17:28
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Pfox posted:Streetwise is the Arcana of the city, and should be your go-to roll for anything the players want to do in an urban environment. Track down an informant? Streetwise. Actually interrogate the informant, if you're role-playing it out? Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate On the other hand, if you're analyzing and disrupting a ritual, that's Arcana all the way down.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:32
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dwarf74 posted:I wish it was that simple, though. Sure, B/D/I can make your informant talk, but how do you know you're not being spun a yarn? Insight might tell you something's amiss, but is it amiss because the informant is working against you, or because your informant is being threatened by the bad guy? Streetwise lets you find the truth of what he's saying, based on your knowledge of the criminal underworld in the city. Want to sneak inside the Baronet's castle? Streetwise tells you when the the guards do their a shift change. Want to find someone to translate that ancient rune you found in the dungeon in the language that time has forgotten? Streetwise will tell you where in the labyrinth of the city you can find the one person who remembers the tongue. Edit: not to say that 4e couldn't use some skill rationalization, but it's best to think of Dungeoneering, Nature, Streetwise, History, and Arcana as environmental skills that convey a significant competence within a specific type of area, and don't have any overlap. slap me and kiss me fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 17:36
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Elfgames posted:so the dm has to create 4-5 puzzles for every encounter? No, nobody has to do anything they don't want to do. If an encounter is just combat, so be it. But maybe you'd prefer an involved encounter without combat (EG: Trap room), or where combat is only part of the encounter. quote:not to mention your idea was like a sliding picture puzzle which doesn't provide options for power usage, Nothing to say you can't add powers that interact with the puzzles. The goal is to make it more like the combat minigame, so that would imply that powers would be a part of it. It would be cool if different classes had different feels to their puzzle powers, like say the rogue is using "finesse" to disarm a trap (giving him an extra move each go) and the barbarian leans over on his turn and uses "brute logic" to destroy one of the tiles in the puzzle which was blocking the winning move. quote:also it's really cool in this social game to give everyone their little puzzles and tell them to not interact. Again, nobody has to do anything they don't want to do. There's nothing to stop the wizard aiding the rogue in the lockpicking, or all three joining the fighter in the combat in an attempt to leave the way the kuo-toa are getting in. quote:like maybe the idea of making skill use more like combat has merit but then you have every lockpicking or diplomacy or whatever use taking forever I don't really have a problem with an important obstacle taking the same time as a combat to overcome. If it's a frivolous obstacle that won't actually challenge the party, it probably shouldn't be focused on for long - in that case I wouldn't even bother having the players roll a skill check, either.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:34
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Two of my players had a skill system like that in their homebrew. You had three skills and three environments and could put skill points in combinations. Investigation - Nature is different from Investigation - Urban, and so on.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:37
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My Lovely Horse posted:Two of my players had a skill system like that in their homebrew. You had three skills and three environments and could put skill points in combinations. Investigation - Nature is different from Investigation - Urban, and so on. I'm a fan of this. It's a pretty good way of doing niche protection, rather than letting arcana, athletics, perception, and diplomacy handle everything.
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Feb 26, 2016 19:33
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My Lovely Horse posted:Two of my players had a skill system like that in their homebrew. You had three skills and three environments and could put skill points in combinations. Investigation - Nature is different from Investigation - Urban, and so on. I like this a lot, too. It's slick as hell and a good way to communicate a setting.
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Feb 26, 2016 22:12
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The problem with the lockpicking minigame idea is that drawing out picking a lock is boring.quote:"I'll move the pick one forward and two up and try to get the back pin." There's not really a way to make "pick a lock" exciting for 4-5 people. In fact, I'd say it's the absolutely worst example possible of "skill that needs a minigame". Trailing a dude? There's an entire genre of board games about hidden movement. History? A little Jumpstart and a little  , but sure, have a Fantasy Trivia game. Endurance? "WHOEVER HOLDS THEIR BREATH THE LONGEST GETS A +2. READY SET GO."
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Feb 28, 2016 08:46
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Also, I'm not sure why we're accepting them calling the combat a minigame. It's not. It's the actual game. It's what the mechanics are all built around.
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Feb 28, 2016 09:22
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no they want to build equally robust mechanics around every skill
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Feb 28, 2016 20:01
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djw175 posted:Also, I'm not sure why we're accepting them calling the combat a minigame. It's not. It's the actual game. It's what the mechanics are all built around. It's not the entirety of the game, it's one component. Another component might be the skill system (skill challenges, poo poo though they are, are not combat), or roleplaying conversations with NPCs and stuff like that. It's certainly the most fleshed-out component of the game as it stands, I'll grant you that. I wouldn't mind that changing. Poison Mushroom posted:The problem with the lockpicking minigame idea is that drawing out picking a lock is boring. The minigame in Mansions of Madness I was talking about is fun. You probably wouldn't roll dice to do it, it's more a marriage of the character's stats and your own intelligence in solving the puzzle. A good player might see a route to the solution which takes five moves to do, but their character is only dextrous enough to do three moves in a turn. I agree that your quoted bit of text is boring, but you could apply that to any kind of action: quote:"I'll hook my axe around his shield and try to pull it out of place." That's why we have powers and a tactical map and all that good poo poo to make combat interesting to play out instead of it just being, "I roll combat until the enemy has no hit points left", and "There's a locked door" is not an encounter any half-decent GM should be putting in his adventures. Also you should not be rolling dice if all that happens when you fail is, "You have to roll more dice". That's poo poo DMing at its finest and shouldn't enter into any serious rules mechanic argument.
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Feb 28, 2016 20:56
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Thoqqua never got official stats in 4E, did they? Not that they're terribly complex creatures, just thought I'd look at what's out there. Looking at the 3.5 stats I guess they'd do ongoing fire damage with their MBA and maybe have a damage aura. Probably skirmishers (for easier charging) or lurkers (extra damage when attacking from burrowed state).
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Feb 29, 2016 19:34
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What is the most absolutely powerful monster in all of 4e?
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Feb 29, 2016 21:54
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Mike Mearls?
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Feb 29, 2016 22:01
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Rohan Kishibe posted:Mike Mearls? 
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Feb 29, 2016 22:04
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Covok posted:What is the most absolutely powerful monster in all of 4e?
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Feb 29, 2016 22:22
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Poison Mushroom posted:"WHOEVER HOLDS THEIR BREATH THE LONGEST GETS A +2. READY SET GO." gently caress I'm stealing this for my next session of DnD, whenever that is.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:45
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Is there a list of the Warforged component gear anywhere?
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Mar 1, 2016 01:44
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Covok posted:What is the most absolutely powerful monster in all of 4e? In terms of power level relative to players, the most dangerous monster is probably something like pre-nerf Needlefang Drake Swarm or pre-nerf Volcanic Dragon (I killed my first paragon character with a pre-nerf Volcanic Dragon) I think the highest level monster is actually Bahamut, but despite his huge statblock and many powers I'm pretty sure any 30th level party who wasn't actively avoiding good powers could wipe the floor with him, probably in 2 rounds (You can't 1-round him because he has 2 forms!) The absolute most unfun monster is the Phane Wraith with burst weakening+ being insubstantial+ regen+ negating condition + immune to damage until it attacks Mince Pieface fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 01:45
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Irontooth and his level 6 encounter against level 1 players should be up there.
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Mar 1, 2016 10:01
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Gort posted:Irontooth and his level 6 encounter against level 1 players should be up there. Level 6?! No wonder the Shadowfell run I did didn't seem so threatening - he's only a level 3 in the revised version.
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Mar 1, 2016 10:07
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gradenko_2000 posted:Level 6?! No wonder the Shadowfell run I did didn't seem so threatening - he's only a level 3 in the revised version. He's not level 6. The encounter he's in has so many kobolds that it's level 6.
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Mar 1, 2016 10:27
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He might've become less threatening with all the experience with the game people have gained over the years and all the extra features and powers characters have gained from all the splatbooks, but against pretty much new players playing their first 4e module...
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Mar 1, 2016 17:40
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S.J. posted:Is there a list of the Warforged component gear anywhere? Not that I'm aware of but there are only like 6 items and none of them are particularly good. Just refluff whatever items you actually want as components.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:19
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thespaceinvader posted:Not that I'm aware of but there are only like 6 items and none of them are particularly good. Mithral Plating is really the only one worth looking at, but you need plate proficiency. No speed or check penalty as early as level 2, though. Other heavy armor wearers have to wait for Karach Armor at level 12 or suck it up and get the feat Heavy Armor Agility.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:25
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I'm reasonably sure all the warforged components are right in the Eberron book.
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Mar 1, 2016 18:50
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Delver's Light is nice, since it's a level 2 slotless hands-free light source that can provide up to 20 squares of bright/dim/no light adjustable as a free action for maximum Morse Code mode, so there's no reason not to bring one along once you're past mid-heroic and can easily afford it. Command Circlet is also interesting since it's the lowest-level source of always-on telepathy at level 5 and has the highest telepathy range in the game at 20 compared to the 5 squares of the Pileus Helm (at level 6) or being a khalashtar/shardmind/elan, but you'll probably eventually have a better use for that slot. Armbow can turn a crossbow into a one-handed weapon that doesn't expend ammo, but if you're actually specializing in crossbows you probably have some other enhancement in mind.
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Mar 1, 2016 19:01
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My Lovely Horse posted:I'm reasonably sure all the warforged components are right in the Eberron book. I just have the CB, no Eberron book on me at the moment. Not a big deal, just curious how many there were/if they were any good.
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Mar 1, 2016 19:09
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If it's the old offline CB you can view stuff by source from Manage > Campaign Settings.  But since I opened it to check anyway:Adamantine Plating (Armor) Mithral Plating (Armor) Spiked Soles (Feet) Command Circlet (Head) Disk of Energy Resistance (Neck) Essence of the Scout (Neck) Armblade (Weapon) Armbow (Weapon) Warsoul (Weapon) Delver's Light (Wondrous) Final Messenger (Wondrous) (be a walking cuckoo clock)
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Mar 1, 2016 19:17
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Also Shoulderbow and I think there was Alchemical Failsafe as well? There must have been a dragon article at some point because that's not all of them.
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Mar 1, 2016 19:43
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