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The Saurus posted:what's your plan to make sure the poop gets shovelled dr zimbardo Do you want to live in a pile of poop? No? Here's your shovel
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Feb 26, 2016 19:15
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Whats your plan to make sure the poop makes it from my butt to the toilet?? How do communists deal with that issue????
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Feb 26, 2016 19:17
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swampman posted:This is the logic of a bourgeois parasite who could never imagine themselves either cleaning a sewer or not using a sewer gotta admit, there's a certain appeal to rotating unskilled sanitation duties through the other professions in a hypothetical socialist/syndicalist utopia makes being a full-time sanitation worker a position of relative authority in the community while it gives people in even the most cloistered and sedentary professions a real appreciation for how society deals with the waste they reproduce. in the absence of capitalism there's no artificial pressure for as many people as possible to work 40 hours every week, so people would actually have time to take care of their sanitation duties when their turn came too
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Feb 26, 2016 19:24
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the universal dignity of labor is the kind of ideological position that needs to be rigorously propagandized, esp with the exact opposite being so ingrained in mainstream thought
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Feb 26, 2016 19:29
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Homework Explainer posted:the universal dignity of labor is the kind of ideological position that needs to be rigorously propagandized, esp with the exact opposite being so ingrained in mainstream thought People who perform hazardous labor deserve a bit more than "dignity" imo.
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Feb 26, 2016 19:55
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:People who perform hazardous labor deserve a bit more than "dignity" imo. obviously
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Feb 26, 2016 20:11
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zeal posted:gotta admit, there's a certain appeal to rotating unskilled sanitation duties through the other professions in a hypothetical socialist/syndicalist utopia Although really if you want to talk about intensive, unpleasant, unpaid labor we're not looking at cleaning sewers as much as changing diapers. Unpaid labor is super gendered. In a more enlightened system that would not be acceptable, and domestic work could be compensated accordingly, which would obviously be an enormous step towards the liberation of women.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:34
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it is incredibly disheartening that this thread doesn't know whether it opposes wage labor, the fundamental source of exploitation in capitalism. the answer isn't the 20 hour week, or the 12 hour week, it's the zero hour week. a zero hour week still means humans will live in greater luxury than at any point in the last million years. if your toilet's broke, you fix your own plumbing. if your disabled neighbor's toilet's broke, you help to fix her plumbing. if all the toilets in your building are broke, you work with your neighbors to fix the sewer line. this isn't hard stuff, and it was already mostly automated anyway in the past 30 years with robotic pigging and snaking. you don't need a second motivator, like the threat of having your house foreclosed.
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Feb 26, 2016 21:41
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There is also far more effort put into actually reducing unpleasant labor in effective ways, and curbing destructive behaviors (behaviors with "externalities") when the community has to decide cooperatively how to do certain tasks. If your neighborhood had to coordinate the logistics of getting all of its trash collected, and everyone has to be a sanitation worker sometimes, would anyone want local use of plastic bags, disposable cups, and all the other miscellaneous crap that fills capitalist dumps? The goal would not just be to clean trash up, but reduce its production. I don't think this requires some kind of faith in the essentially good nature of humankind - it just requires faith that people don't want to live in piles of their own trash.
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Feb 26, 2016 21:53
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Mofabio posted:it is incredibly disheartening that this thread doesn't know whether it opposes wage labor, the fundamental source of exploitation in capitalism. the answer isn't the 20 hour week, or the 12 hour week, it's the zero hour week. a zero hour week still means humans will live in greater luxury than at any point in the last million years. you're arguing for a straight shot to full communism, which is utopian thinking and unscientific. that's the endgame but there's a whole lotta socialism to come beforehand and ending the wage system doesn't necessarily mean ending income, it means ending the extraction of surplus labor
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Feb 26, 2016 22:08
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Homework Explainer posted:you're arguing for a straight shot to full communism, which is utopian thinking and unscientific. that's the endgame but there's a whole lotta socialism to come beforehand but i want it now i do think it's worth reminding people that communism isn't mystical, it's self-sufficiency and community-sufficiency, without getting regularly robbed. this thread spent a page on who'd make the pizza, and another on who'd clean the sewers. the answers are extremely easy -- way easier than explaining the extremely complicated bureaucracy of the domino's corporation. Mofabio fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 23:36
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'Labor tokens' are a semantic dodge from wages, the extraction of surplus value will still be a necessity in any industrial society (thought you just wont' have the labor directed to an ownership class, but allocated based on group need), and this:swampman posted:This is the logic of a bourgeois parasite who could never imagine themselves either cleaning a sewer or not using a sewer Mofabio posted:it is incredibly disheartening that this thread doesn't know whether it opposes wage labor, the fundamental source of exploitation in capitalism. the answer isn't the 20 hour week, or the 12 hour week, it's the zero hour week. a zero hour week still means humans will live in greater luxury than at any point in the last million years.
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Feb 27, 2016 00:09
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Like, I hate to break this to you, but you are surrounded by objects and infrastructure which you know absolutely nothing about. Even something as simple as a ceramic cup requires an entire chain of field-specific knowledge, that cannot be 'winged'. No one person knows how an individual companies' cellphone is structured, there are just a bunch of people with a very narrow field, who do that area very well, who then trust the other guys to be able to do their thing properly. Sewers are gross, no one wants to do that job, and it's definitely low on the 'totem pole' of respectable occupations, but don't pretend for a second that you'd be able to just pick it up after browsing wikipedia. Hell, even something as demeaning and brain-damaging as assembly line work is something that improves over time, you fiddle people around and you lose product. And hell, do you want to be forced to learn to do 10 things poorly, because that's the crisis of the week, or just do maybe a couple of things well, and then spend the rest of your time watching anime?
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Feb 27, 2016 00:33
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For people who claim to understand the material dialectic, a lot of you seem to think economies run on magic.
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Feb 27, 2016 01:00
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But who will feed me grapes while i lounge and fan me with a palm leaf and let me have sex with them and clean my poop after the revolution?
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Feb 27, 2016 01:00
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Bob le Moche posted:But who will feed me grapes while i lounge and fan me with a palm leaf and let me have sex with them and clean my poop after the revolution? learn how to program your roomba
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Feb 27, 2016 01:03
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Mofabio posted:it is incredibly disheartening that this thread doesn't know whether it opposes wage labor, the fundamental source of exploitation in capitalism. the answer isn't the 20 hour week, or the 12 hour week, it's the zero hour week. a zero hour week still means humans will live in greater luxury than at any point in the last million years. Anarchist_thought.txt
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Feb 27, 2016 01:15
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Any society which can successfully abolish wage labour is going to get there through an extremely long process where it's values and boundaries of socially acceptable/expected behaviour transition from capitalistic ones to communistic ones you can't just holler "wage labour is gone now" in 2016 and expect anyone to know what the gently caress to do with themselves like straight up my first response to your weird labour role rotation would be "why the gently caress do i have to wade through a goddamned sewer once a month now? i never had to do that before and I gain nothing from this. i hope the sewer guy isn't loving up the bike i'd normally be fixing today"
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Feb 27, 2016 01:33
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real talk it's actually easy as gently caress in a society where work-avoidance has no negative consequence to get people to do lovely jobs: give them really good perks that's all you have to do. you don't have to make everyone play musical careers. you just have to properly compensate people who undertake the really awful ones
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Feb 27, 2016 01:40
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i spent my afternoon repairing a blown expansion joint on a water discharge line (that's a thing that feeds into a sewer). I am here to report that it is, in fact, incredibly easy, and a 12 year old could do it by winging it. In fact, the vast majority of the time spent on it was doing paperwork, correcting the paperwork in SAP, documenting it for the next shift, and trying to convince the department over to buy the correct spare. but tell me more about the efficiencies of division of labor pizza, sewers, I wonder what the next one will be Mofabio fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 01:51
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"doing thing is easy" - man who does thing professionally all the time
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Feb 27, 2016 01:57
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next up ITT: Mofabio can't understand why grandma won't fix her own printer when it'd be quicker than having him do it
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Feb 27, 2016 01:58
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i don't think i'd want to live in a block of flats where the plumbing, and electrics, and windows, and roof, and floors, are a diy hodgepodge of decades. the productive developments of the last few centuries rest in large part on standardisation, centralisation and specialisation. people have to design and build the robots that do the pigging and snaking, and the robots have to work with the power supply everywhere, and so on.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:04
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we don't need centralised steel production with a big dominos bureaucracy, just have a furnace in every back yard
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Feb 27, 2016 02:05
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Oh wow, paperwork, why do we even have that? *scoff* Bureaucracy, right guys? Not like there's any kind of legitimate reason to record and systematize responsibilities and the fulfillment of said responsibilities, coordinating the position & labor-time of workers, and making communication as efficient as possible, by know exactly who you have to contact. Like, if we just did it, you know, it'd all work out?
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Feb 27, 2016 02:06
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hey I'd fix grandma's printer, I'm not a monster There are really complicated jobs out there, I'm just saying, as someone who's done it, piping sewer and sump work isn't one of them edit: the legitimate reason for the hours of paperwork is division of labor, because it takes 3 departments in coordination to do a job that takes 15 minutes of real work, including the logbook entry. Communication is an actual problem in gigantic, capital-intensive production Mofabio fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 02:07
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i feel like this is also a difficulty with the criticism of alienation as a capitalist phenomenon. capitalist work is alienating but why would socialist or communist work not be alienating if it works at a large scale? even if the means of production are controlled democratically, a democracy at that scale is pretty impersonal. your vote means almost nothing and this is a feature not a bug, if your vote was important on the large scale you'd be a dictator. if you have a personal identification and investment with what you're doing you're not alienated, but this doesn't necessarily require democracy. people have been whipped into national fervour without democracy, in fact it often involves some kind of abrogation of democracy. so i guess democratic control of the means of production is more a prerequisite for a solution to alienation that isn't monstrous (hello fascism) than a solution in itself.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:30
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A possible answer is that there are two ways of dealing with labor-saving automation: save money on payroll by firing workers, or reduce working hours without reducing compensation. A worker-controlled economy is more likely to pursue the latter strategy than a capitalist economy. Those reduced hours may still be spent on alienated labor, but the rest of your time, of which you now have more, does not have to be.
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Feb 27, 2016 06:09
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is there anything interesting written about the various ideologies' response to scientific management and taylorism in the early twentieth century? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor in addition to what's written there (and i can see that taylorism didn't fit seamlessly into the Actual Socialist USSR, but i'd be interested in yalls perspectives) i read once that mussolini found out that taylor's widow was attending some conference in italy and chased her down to get her to autograph his copy of the principles of scientific management. the implication in what i've read was that all the politically powerful ideologies of the early twentieth century saw value in taylor's work. presumably the anarchists would have disagreed another random thing in this vein (slightly) that i ran into once was that the (not actually) nobel prize for economics (it's a prize 'in memory of' nobel piggybacking on his more famous prizes iirc, loving economists) was given jointly in 1975 to an american and a soviet for the computing era version of taylorization, optimization http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/1975/press.html it's interesting to me how in that bygone era it was seen as useful by the economics nobel prize people to recognize the phenomenon of algorithmic allocation of economic resources by giving it jointly to a capitalist and a socialist practitioner
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Feb 27, 2016 06:29
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HorseLord posted:real talk it's actually easy as gently caress in a society where work-avoidance has no negative consequence to get people to do lovely jobs: give them really good perks Yep. The jobs that are deemed harder, less pleasant, require more skills whatever should give more perks. Doctors should be paid well, and so should people who do things that suck that no one else wants to, instead of being forced to do it by exploitation. The fact that some people oppose this because they want to destroy wages to be super communist/anarchist is pretty loving 
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Feb 27, 2016 08:12
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tbh being a doctor is on the same level as plumbing or sewer work in my opinion you're dealing with super gross human fluids and stuff, it's just one is considered waste
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Feb 27, 2016 15:40
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you might be an emotionless robot if that's seriously your position like i'm pretty sure being confronted with a sewer where if you gently caress up, some people can't use the toilet for a while, is a bit different from being confronted with a major wound or illness, where if you gently caress up a human being with loved ones and feelings will die
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Feb 27, 2016 17:12
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Human life is a waste, which is why doctors should get the same pay as janitors. 
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Feb 27, 2016 17:17
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youve never hosed up with a sewer the way i have hoo boy that was an awkward funeral. never seen an air-sealed coffin before
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Feb 27, 2016 17:18
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:you might be an emotionless robot if that's seriously your position it was mostly a joke, but also people are loving gross and while i think it's awesome some folks want to become nurses and doctors there's not many professions more disgusting
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Feb 27, 2016 17:25
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The Saurus posted:Today I had the first interview I've had for a while despite applying for jobs constantly over the past few weeks. lol
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Feb 27, 2016 17:26
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:is there any consideration towards reducing the standard work week or are we gonna have a huge amount of makework to make sure everyone's putting in that magic forty hours lol if you only work 40 hours
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Feb 27, 2016 17:52
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it's unfortunate that saurus doesn't know the speech of his adopted home, he and other immigrants should have access to free education to rectify this imo
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Feb 27, 2016 17:59
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Mofabio posted:there's tons of work to be done, but wage labor is an extremely crappy way to go about it I mean it's good that people are learning biology and their goal is noble...but please do not try to make a sterile drug in a basement. they will end up killing someone.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:10
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haters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By9nKgA5eNM
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Feb 27, 2016 23:29
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