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Dreylad posted:There's a ton of research that shows that learning another language improves all your language faculties. There's no disadvantage to having people learn another language, even if they don't retain it later on in life. I agree but I'd rather focus on making sure everyone speaks French. If we're going to expand beyond that then teaching them mandarin or Spanish would seem more prudent. I would be all for the government providing indefinite free language education to anyone willing to take it but if we're talking about mandatory High School classes in the context of relatively limited government resources, and taking into account the likelihood of a backlash, then I don't think "everyone in Canada should take four years of Cree language classes in high school" is a very good policy to be advocating.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:25
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Helsing posted:I agree but I'd rather focus on making sure everyone speaks French. If we're going to expand beyond that then teaching them mandarin or Spanish would seem more prudent. I'm only advocating for additional languages, the issue of what that second or third language should be is a tough one. I think that's something each province has to decide and determine for themselves. I'm not entirely convinced French should be the only language either despite our current national bilingual status, although it'd probably greatly improve my career prospects.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:27
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Welcome to Indian Hotel. Would you like to make a reservation?
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Mar 2, 2016 23:30
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Oh my god I didn't even see the embarrassing quote from Gallic Wars That's not quotation from Caesar, that's Caesar quoting Ariovistus a German who had conquered some Gaulic tribes who Caesar was trying to help out. Caesar was parlaying with Ariovistus, who claimed that Caesar had no right to help out the Gauls, because the Germans had conquered them. That belief isn't held by Caesar (or Rome) but is instead held by the people Caesar is trying to fight.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:39
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In BC my french classes were met with eye rolling, inattention, and constant complaints that it was a waste of time forced on us by Ottawa to make some insecure Quebecois happy while Bonhomme and that loving Pineapple were living large on cultural hand-outs. No one remembered a lick of it and it did nothing to undo the general western attitudes towards quebec and canada's language laws. If we can't even successfully teach french in a huge swath of Canada because no one thinks its relevant or feels its forced on them out of "political correctness", drastically less useful languages no one is ever going to get a chance to speak out of the classroom are going to be even less useful. What would help is just a better curriculum around poverty and native issues, most Canadians have zero understanding about the history and causes of native poverty or conditions on reservations. Trying to force language education without any context is a useless gesture that will generate more backlash than understanding. This is all just "would be nice" stuff though, the real critical issue is actually addressing first nation's poverty and social issues directly. White people can learn some native words, carve a loving totem pole as a class project, but it does jack poo poo for someone living in a toxic mold infested reserve trailer home.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:40
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edit-sorry
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Mar 2, 2016 23:40
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I'm not saying that Canada ought to be like Rome. Even the Roman Republic didn't set out to expand at first, they allied with one tribe against another, signed treaties and inherited land from kings, and grew because of perceived threats on the frontier. As someone pointed out, the British and French didn't intend to come in conquest either. Nobody declared "Ojibwa delenda est" or had war clubs cast at their feet. A series of trading relationships, colonial skirmishes and treaties got us to where we are now. e: I was citing Caesar the author, not as the speaker! Oups. More to the point, it was in agreement with the post that what the Europeans did to the Natives was just what had been done before to the Welsh, Saxon, Britons, Celts, and on and on. It was just how things had always been done, and trying to integrate conquered people into an empire is preferable to slaughter. This issue was a part of many colonial struggles - the Jesuits in Brazil and Mexico for example tried to convert and assimilate indigenous people so that colonists could not enslave or murder them. I'm not defending Residential Schools by any stretch of the imagination either. For a variety of reasons nobody here is responsible for The Crown came to be in possession of this land. It is our responsibility to honour our treaty obligations, prevent abuse, right past wrongdoings and build a trusting relationship with The First Nations. I would say that it is not our responsibility to learn dead languages, support medical quackery, or put sensitivity above all else. There were about 90 recommendations I agree with, and hope we act on. Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 23:40
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Yeah we just sort of accidentally conquered Canada. None of it was planned, just oops. It sure wasn't a long term concerted effort to use a series of treaties, agreements, and force of arms to conquer, marginalize, or outright genocide the various native nations and cultures that populated Canada, it just sort of happened some how. Also like technically it was the British Empire not "Canada" doing most of this so really we've got no ethical responsibility here guys.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:45
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Oops, I fell over and accidentally conquered a continent. Welp, guess I'd better recreate England here by assimilating or exterminating the indigenous population! *several generations later* Hey, it wasn't me personally that put natives in residential schools, why don't they get off their high horses and look for jobs?
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Mar 2, 2016 23:51
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah we just sort of accidentally conquered Canada. None of it was planned, just oops. It sure wasn't a long term concerted effort to use a series of treaties, agreements, and force of arms to conquer, marginalize, or outright genocide the various native nations and cultures that populated Canada, it just sort of happened some how. Also like technically it was the British Empire not "Canada" doing most of this so really we've got no ethical responsibility here guys. "Sorry, colonialism doesn't count as conquering" - First year university student, Frosted Flake.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:52
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vyelkin posted:Oops, I fell over and accidentally conquered a continent. Welp, guess I'd better recreate England here by assimilating or exterminating the indigenous population! We'll help them find jobs by teaching first generation Syrian Canadians how to speak Cree.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:56
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Jordan7hm posted:We'll help them find jobs by teaching first generation Syrian Canadians how to speak Cree. Well yeah, who do you think is going to teach them Cree?
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Mar 2, 2016 23:59
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vyelkin posted:Well yeah, who do you think is going to teach them Cree? Lol. Touché. 
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Mar 3, 2016 00:03
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Baronjutter posted:In BC my french classes were met with eye rolling, inattention, and constant complaints that it was a waste of time forced on us by Ottawa to make some insecure Quebecois happy while Bonhomme and that loving Pineapple were living large on cultural hand-outs. No one remembered a lick of it and it did nothing to undo the general western attitudes towards quebec and canada's language laws. If we can't even successfully teach french in a huge swath of Canada because no one thinks its relevant or feels its forced on them out of "political correctness", drastically less useful languages no one is ever going to get a chance to speak out of the classroom are going to be even less useful. Pretty much the same here, but for 1/2 of elementary we didn't have a dedicated french teacher so french class was an excuse for our year-round teacher to take us outside and teach us the rules of CFL football. I don't think there was a single person I know who went on to university to take french for any reason other than "the government requires it if you want to work for them". Our extent of native knowledge was a focus on the minutiae of the treaties ("WOW! A chief in X Treaty area gets a Spade, a Plow, Twenty Dollars, and a Coat each year! In Treaty Area Y they get..." rote memorization garbage), though in our senior year it was an actual sobering focus on the 60's scoop, residential schools etc. The point is still lost though, that was part of a optional class
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Mar 3, 2016 00:03
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I don't know how I went from getting harangued for being the most liberal guy in the Battery to this.  I'm not knocking anyone - quite the opposite. It's just a bit of a change-up. Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 00:08
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Frosted Flake posted:Gaul went from being a backwater [citation needed] to an integrated, cosmopolitan part of the Empire. Caesar didn't go looting the place because it was poor. Baronjutter posted:Yeah we just sort of accidentally conquered Canada. None of it was planned, just oops. It sure wasn't a long term concerted effort to use a series of treaties, agreements, and force of arms to conquer, marginalize, or outright genocide the various native nations and cultures that populated Canada, it just sort of happened some how. Also like technically it was the British Empire not "Canada" doing most of this so really we've got no ethical responsibility here guys. This exactly. It's a common theme throughout the British Empire that expansion wasn't being centrally planned by London, but that doesn't mean what happened was fair or respectable. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 00:10
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Frosted Flake posted:I don't know how I went from getting harangued for being the most liberal guy in the Battery to this. This is a common as hell reaction to this thread.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:17
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Places can be a lovely backwater without being poor. See: Calgary.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:17
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Frosted Flake posted:I don't know how I went from getting harangued for being the most liberal guy in the Battery to this. To borrow a phrase from CI, it's because most of the posters in this thread are useless craft-beer Marxists.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:19
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I'll have you know that I will be enjoying a craft beer tonight so gently caress you, you haters! Love me some Wootstout.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:29
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While it's true the thread skews well to the left of Canadian society (provided you ignore the fact the top two posters by a significant margin are a libertarian leaning doofus and an alcoholic sociopath, or that a list of the top ten posters in the thread would also includes Ikantski, Jordan7hm and bunnyofdoom, ) I'm pretty sure you'd get a bad reception in a lot of other contexts if one of your first fall backs in a discussion about natives is a barely veiled "might makes right" style allusion to ancient Rome.PT6A posted:To borrow a phrase from CI, it's because most of the posters in this thread are useless craft-beer Marxists. Why am I not surprised that the Albertan who voted for Trudeau would be so enamored with a poster who hates his guts 
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Mar 3, 2016 00:47
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Helsing posted:provided you ignore the fact the top two posters by a significant margin are a libertarian leaning doofus and an alcoholic sociopath Which one am I, by your estimation? I could easily be either or both!
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Mar 3, 2016 00:57
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PT6A posted:Which one am I, by your estimation? I could easily be either or both! I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:01
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Helsing posted:I'm pretty sure you'd get a bad reception in a lot of other contexts if one of your first fall backs in a discussion about natives is a barely veiled "might makes right" style allusion to ancient Rome. Vae victis. I'm all seriousness, we should do almost everything we can to help Native people. Learning Cree doesn't help them, nor does replacing medicine with smudging, or adding spas to the correctional system.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:07
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Frosted Flake posted:Vae victis. Learning languages for White people isn't to directly help Aboriginal people (stop saying Native, you sound like an old racist grandpa), its to integrate them into our predominantly white society and to teach non-aboriginals about aboriginal culture so that in the future idiots who don't "get" why we need to give a gently caress about writing wrongs won't be so easily swayed into their echo chamber. Look at New Zealand where Maori is an official language and where traditional aboriginal practices are integrated into the identity of what being a New Zealander is. Thats why you see New Zealand Army members doing Hakas at funerals, but you don't see Canadian Forces members doing the Sundance. Now I'm aware NZ had an easier time because their version of colonialism was "back the strongest warrior tribe and ally with them to ethnically subjugate the others inline", but nevertheless their method of integration is much more appropriate. Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 01:14
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We're not talking about "replacing medicine with smudging." That wouldn't happen unless they wanted it. Guess what? People already have the right to do that. Everyone does. My granddad would have probably lived another 10 years if he'd gotten a bypass, but he didn't want to. He was scared of being put to sleep. We don't force people to undergo medical procedures they don't want, even if it would extend their life. What we are talking about is providing funding and resources to help people incorporate traditional rites and practices into their healthcare, if they want it. It's an insignificant expense in the grand scheme and it has zero downside. Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 01:15
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Frosted Flake posted:Vae victis. shut the gently caress up
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Mar 3, 2016 01:16
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Helsing posted:While it's true the thread skews well to the left of Canadian society (provided you ignore the fact the top two posters by a significant margin are a libertarian leaning doofus and an alcoholic sociopath, or that a list of the top ten posters in the thread would also includes Ikantski, Jordan7hm and bunnyofdoom, ) I'm pretty sure you'd get a bad reception in a lot of other contexts if one of your first fall backs in a discussion about natives is a barely veiled "might makes right" style allusion to ancient Rome. I'm pretty sure bunny, ikantski and I are all well to the left of Canadian society too. And for all his fygm posting so is PT6A.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:19
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*types a 30 page essay on the difference between liberals and True Leftists (tm)*
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Mar 3, 2016 01:23
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That's nothing compared to my 30 page essay on the difference between Craft Beer Marxists and Weed Toking Trots. The difference is that Weed Toking Trots are more likely to accidentally burn down their wooden condos.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:33
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Frosted, I hate to say it but your views on Roman Gaul are hilariously revisionist. Yes, Caesar's conquests brought "culture" and "civilization" to Gaul and Belgae, much in the same way Ghengis Khan brought "culture" to China and the Quarismian middle east By murdering EVERYONE You can't just say "oh yes towns and roads showed up" without also bringing up the fact that Caesar basically walled in tens of thousands of gauls and left them to starve to death because "great men are very often bad men"
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Mar 3, 2016 01:38
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Let's just accept our fate and go full communist already for fucks sake, I mean the flag is already red. Maybe I'm over estimating what teaching high school kids about residential school would do their perceptions of indigenous people and I'm not saying it's the only thing we should do, but really if you don't try educate the new generation on what idiotic poo poo we've done in the past then they will just as prejudiced as the current generation.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:39
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My ex-boyfriend is from a small native community and they couldn't even teach him their own language while he was growing up because the only person qualified to do it (and who had done it for decades) had gone senile. His older sister is now able to do it, because she committed herself to it, but unfortunately a generation of their community had to go without while she was gaining the necessary qualifications. It would be fantastic if the feds provided more funding and incentives for this. One could even argue, that it would Create Jobs™
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 01:40
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DariusLikewise posted:Let's just accept our fate and go full communist already for fucks sake, I mean the flag is already red. communism doesn't work
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Mar 3, 2016 01:47
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this is going to be a bad conversation
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Mar 3, 2016 01:48
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Wait, am I the Weed Trotskyist? Because I'm more of a anarchosyndicalist, if we're aiming for accuracy.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:49
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Frosted Flake posted:Learning Cree doesn't help them Frosted Flake posted:changing the entire education system, and leaning on the university system to create departments out of the aether.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:50
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JawKnee posted:this is going to be a bad conversation it's been a bad conversation for like the last 4 pages already
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Mar 3, 2016 01:54
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MA-Horus posted:Frosted, I hate to say it but your views on Roman Gaul are hilariously revisionist. Yes, Caesar's conquests brought "culture" and "civilization" to Gaul and Belgae, much in the same way Ghengis Khan brought "culture" to China and the Quarismian middle east Also, the towns were already there.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:55
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Franks Happy Place posted:Wait, am I the Weed Trotskyist? I suggested to CI a while back that his next term of abuse for the thread should be Marijuana Marxists, and then Pinterest Mom improved upon that with the more elegant "Tokin Trots".
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Mar 3, 2016 01:58
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